Bit Blot Forum
Aquaria => General => Topic started by: theSamo on February 01, 2007, 03:30:22 pm
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I know it's a long shot, but is this game going to have a linux version? :-\
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I've worked on a MacOSX port a bit. Just early stuff. O0
Linux would be a bit more tricky than OSX, and I'm not sure if there's a market for linux games. If there was a large enough demand, we could probably do it.
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Well ... I'd want a Linux version too.
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The market just doubled!!
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You don't have to go through all the native compiling stuff, just make sure it runs fine with WINE http://kegel.com/wine/isv/ (http://kegel.com/wine/isv/)
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Good idea! I should try it out and see how it runs. What flavor of linux would you recommend?
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Ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com/) is awesome for people new to linux and is the no.1 distrubution at DistroWatch... and it's what i use ;)
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The market just doubled!!
Haha!
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So yeah. I should try it out on my other box. Anyone have recommendations for partitioning / setting up dual boot stuff?
GParted is the only thing that comes to mind for me.
I used to have an Ubuntu install on a virtual machine a while ago, but it didn't have access to hardware graphics acceleration.
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GParted is what i usually use. and yea, a VM wouldn't work out for that kind of stuff.
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A'ight, installed Ubuntu on a crap HD I had lying around. I just straight up "wine Aquaria.exe" and it ran!
Sound doesn't work, it generates a lot of error/warning messages in the terminal and the cursor is missing. (among other bugs)
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Have you thought about putting this on Xbox 360 Live Arcade, Wii, or PS3.
As a downloadable game, it will be very popular.
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Yeah, that' d be great! We've definitely thought about those... (and the DS...) but there's not much we can do about it yet...
...other than make the game as awesome as possible. ^-^
After IGF and the PC release we may have a clearer picture...
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Yeah, that' d be great! We've definitely thought about those... (and the DS...) but there's not much we can do about it yet...
...other than make the game as awesome as possible. ^-^
After IGF and the PC release we may have a clearer picture...
Sounds good. Taking the route Alien Hominid took.
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Yeah, that' d be great! We've definitely thought about those... (and the DS...) but there's not much we can do about it yet...
...other than make the game as awesome as possible. ^-^
After IGF and the PC release we may have a clearer picture...
Alien Hominid is gping to be popular on Xbox Live. So this game would be a classic! I hope you consider. After the PC release that is.
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Aquaria on Wine/Ubuntu
(http://zaphire.ca/AQ/AquariaUbuntu-sm.png)
Runs "okay" without sound. Lotsa bugs.
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PSP wouldn't be bad, either. PSP really needs some great games. I haven't bought anything since launch, though I have enjoyed many things with the latest edition of DAX's hacked firmware. Just no retail games because there are so few I actually care about. (Loco Rocco aside)
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PSP wouldn't be bad, either. PSP really needs some great games. I haven't bought anything since launch, though I have enjoyed many things with the latest edition of DAX's hacked firmware. Just no retail games because there are so few I actually care about. (Loco Rocco aside)
PSP had games now?
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Aquaria on Wine/Ubuntu
Runs "okay" without sound. Lotsa bugs.
That's awesome :)
I'm sure you can get around to fix them by/a little after time of release ;)
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I am very interested in a Linux port of this game. By that I mean a proper port, though. Wine is not and never will be a substitute for porting your game. Wine has a number of problems even if it does work with a game (which in my experience is hit-and-miss); choppy or broken sound, poor fullscreen and poor input device support to name a few, and what works now can be broken at any time in a future version. Relying on Wine also sends a message that you regard Linux users as second-rate customers, not really worthy of their own port. I know I certainly will not pay for something that only runs in Wine -- I've just had too much problems getting things to run in it -- but a real, native Linux port of this game, that I'd be willing to pay for. (And yes, Linux users do buy games. Some stick to open source stuff only, and some proclaim that everything must be free (as in beer), but that's really just a (vocal) minority. The rest of us buy things we like.)
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I am very interested in a Linux port of this game. By that I mean a proper port, though. Wine is not and never will be a substitute for porting your game. Wine has a number of problems even if it does work with a game (which in my experience is hit-and-miss); choppy or broken sound, poor fullscreen and poor input device support to name a few, and what works now can be broken at any time in a future version. Relying on Wine also sends a message that you regard Linux users as second-rate customers, not really worthy of their own port. I know I certainly will not pay for something that only runs in Wine -- I've just had too much problems getting things to run in it -- but a real, native Linux port of this game, that I'd be willing to pay for. (And yes, Linux users do buy games. Some stick to open source stuff only, and some proclaim that everything must be free (as in beer), but that's really just a (vocal) minority. The rest of us buy things we like.)
Wouldn't that mean reprogramming the entire game?
Yeah, maybe truenuff.com would help with debunking those mac spoofs and prove Linux to be obnoxious or something. If it's not working, you can get someone to help you patch it.
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Yeah, it didn't seem to be running properly under Wine yet. And I'd have no idea where to start on trying to get the Wine settings to work. But it might be possible somehow.
A real port would be possible too. But I'm not really convinced that there's a large enough Linux indie game audience out there to make the work worthwhile yet...
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Wouldn't that mean reprogramming the entire game?
No, of course not. Exactly how much work the porting will be depends on the game and how it was coded, but assuming the game has been made with portability in mind (which is a fair guess, I think, since there's a Mac OS X version coming), OS specific code will be abstracted away so most of the game doesn't have to worry about it.
A real port would be possible too. But I'm not really convinced that there's a large enough Linux indie game audience out there to make the work worthwhile yet...
This is true in a way, since there's simply not that many indie games for Linux in the first place. People can't buy what doesn't exist. Meanwhile, developers are wary of porting exactly because you are -- there's not a lot of statistics available, and there's a lot of prejudice about linux users being cheap bastards (mostly because of that vocal minority I mentioned in my previous post), so they generally don't risk it. It's a catch 22.
Some have ported their classic and casual clones to Linux and seen disappointing sales -- but this is no great mystery, there's a LOT of open source competition for that kind of games. You also have to consider your target audience. There's not many middle-aged moms using Linux, for example. They do exist, in fact (much like Windows and Mac OS X, there's not just one type of people using Linux), but if your game solely appeals to this group, you're obviously not going to see a lot of Linux sales.
On the other hand, original, high quality games sells. I personally believe that your game would fare well on Linux, simply because what you've got here looks like a high quality, original game! See, Linux users are people, too :). Many of us like good games.
Here's some posts from the indiegamer forums you can read:
http://forums.indiegamer.com/showpost.php?p=91345&postcount=21
http://forums.indiegamer.com/showpost.php?p=91147&postcount=8
http://forums.indiegamer.com/showpost.php?p=113393&postcount=1
Also this: http://www.gameproducer.net/2006/04/06/sales-stats-tribal-trouble/
(Different genres, but at least it shows that some games can be successful.)
Also, if you do decide to give Linux a go and would like some help or guidance with your port, I'm at your service. I've got a bit of experience porting and getting things to run at various distros.
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I would buy a Linux port, aswell as a Wii port.
I use Windows XP and Fadora Redhat Linux.
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+1 for the linux market :D
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Damn, that's a bump.
Still, if it hasn't been noticed already, I'm also one for a Linux port. And personally, I don't think Wine will ever cut it. :\
Sure there are linux people out there who'll pay for a game, but of course that depends on how much time and effort you have to spend on porting to Linux. If you're willing to port to Mac, though, you should definitely consider going the extra distance! :)
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The trailer has a great feeling to it ...
If the game has the same feeling as the trailer ... i'm surly interested...
(Personally I refuse to buy non native ported games since I have Linux,
I long did not migrate to Linux , because of the games ...
but one day I was so tired of Windows .... that I migrated anyway ... without games ...
I do look back on it ... Even though it's tempting to install windows again ... it's not worth it ...
especially not on the long run.)
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The main roadblock to a Linux port technically, is that we're using the Bass Audio Library (http://www.un4seen.com/), which is currently only supported on Mac/Win. Our audio manager is abstracted though, and I already tried out implementations of FMOD and a couple other audio libraries on it.
The problem is I don't know of a solid, free (can't really see the justification for buying an FMOD license for a Linux version of the game :\) audio system for Linux that's simple 'n easy to use.
To summarize, it didn't take long to get the game running on MacOSX because all our libraries were supported. (SDL, Bass, OpenGL) But in the case of Linux, it involves replacing audio which could potentially take a fair amount of time and money.
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I second (or 9th?) the Linux port.
I have studied the game, and I'll set aside some dough to buy this game. Though. Only if there is a native Linux port.
The WINE/Cedega Lib deal I've seen are pretty bad.
O, by the way, Alec, have you seen OpenAL (http://www.openal.org/)? Many (if not most or all) major Linux games, commercial or not, use this to get hardware accelerated Linux Audio. (and/or Windows and Mac)
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For the sound you could even try sdl's sound lib
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I just signed up to tell you that the Linux gaming market isnt as small as you think. All of the numbers released about how many people run linux are wrong because they all make the assumption that you can only run one OS (as if heterogenous doesnt exist in the english language). the truth is that the huge majorty of people who run linux also run windows because of the small select number of programs that they need for work (and in some cases, pleasure).
there is one thing you should remember and that is this, the linux community looks after those who support as many platforms as they can. this is why companies like Id and Epic are so well known. the entire Doom series wouldnt be as big today as it is if it wasnt for John Carmack open sourcing the doom 1 engine. Unreal Tournament wouldnt be where it is today if Epic didnt hire Ryan Gordon to make linux and mac ports of the unreal engine, clients and servers. if they only catered to windows, Valve would have dominated the FPS market. now, valve is the one who is trying to catch up to them.
as mentioned before, OpenAL is a fine choice for delivering audio and is used in all linux and mac port projects (same with SDL with OpenGL).
someone posted a few links to discussion about this topic and i feel that i should also include a few to help back up my feeling about this.
http://www.linux-gamers.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2710&forum=8
http://www.linux-gamers.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2982&forum=8
if you were to make a linux port, i would support you 100% in your ventures.
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I tried working with OpenAL, it would take a lot of work to get it to do what Bass does for us. Like at least a month of work if it even ended up working as well? When I was messing with it, and integrating it with Ogg Vorbis, and trying to get to stream music on a separate thread, it all seemed very complex and flaky.
I'm not sure I want to take the time out to do that, since I'm the only programmer.
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there is one thing you should remember and that is this, the linux community looks after those who support as many platforms as they can.
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if you were to make a linux port, i would support you 100% in your ventures.
That kind of group mentality, that seems to be based on supporting people just because of what platform they develop for, and not necessarily due to quality - scares me more than it reassures me.
I do think it would be a nice gesture to make a Linux port, and I think Linux as a whole is a worthy endeavor... but.
Again my points are:
1) I still don't see a clear, easy way to port the audio
2) If its going to take a lot of work to port, I'm not yet convinced that there will be significant financial or good-will return on that investment. The time spent working on that would be better and more interestingly spent on new games or ports.
But yeah, keep it up. :)
I'm interested to hear more about the Linux gaming world. And if these problems could be solved, it would make a port a lot more likely.
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The market just doubled!!
Count me in that Linux market as well. I love side-scrolling adventure style games, and Aquaria looks to be one I would be proud to add to my collection. The advice of looking into Wine is a good one, but the "real" Linux fanboys will complain about it not being native. I'd prefer native myself, but if it works 100% correctly in Wine, that would certainly be good enough for me. You may also want to look at Transgaming for your port stuff, both to Linux and OSX. They have products to help Windows games run on both platforms, but not without repercussions.
I've many years of Linux gaming experience and in skimming the other messages in this thread it sounds like you might need some help getting off the ground with it. Feel free to email me directly if you need any support. Since you are an admin, you ought to be able to get my address out of my profile, but I'll be watching this thread as well.
I'm excited at the prospect of another (seemingly!) quality title coming to Linux.
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I would buy the game if it was a native linux version.
But: I will not pay for a version that runs in wine.
I do have an idea of what could be wrong with your Wine audio though. Have you tried to only enable ALSA audio output (and messing around with the audio emulation settings) in the "winecfg" application? It might give you sound.
But even if sound works in Wine, I still won't buy it to run it in Wine.
No matter how good Wine can run some games, it's never as good as a native game.
I don't have much experience with game development, but I have done some small stuff with OpenAL in the past.
I have an idea. Why not (abstract if needed and) open source just the audio code so a linux developer can create a modified audio class that uses OpenAL (or a similar technology). Could be a viable solution if 1. you don't mind to open source your audio class and if 2. your code is modular enough to abstract only the essential audio code and if 3. you put comments in your audio code and/or create a function reference
You have to carefully choose a license for the open sourced audio code though. I think a BSD-style license would be a good choice, as it doesn't limit you from doing what you want with the code (like putting it back into your commercial game).
What do you think? I would really like to see this game working on linux (and potentially other alternative OS'es). You use platform-independent libraries (SDL, OpenGL) for the rest of the code, so please find a solution for the audio too :)
I'm very interested in your reply.
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That kind of group mentality, that seems to be based on supporting people just because of what platform they develop for, and not necessarily due to quality - scares me more than it reassures me.
I do think it would be a nice gesture to make a Linux port, and I think Linux as a whole is a worthy endeavor... but.
there is nothing to be scared about. in fact, that is actually something you should embrace.
currently, its more like a cult-classic film. those that actually know about it, love it and will promote it on their own free will.
please take no offense to this, but i see way too many indie projects just go no where because of their failure to cater to alternate niches (a perfect example is the game Crimsonland, a wonderful game, but for windows only and because of that, they arent selling as many copies as they had hoped). it is really hard for indie games to make it big unless they get a big name publishing house to deliver the game. then, there are the indie games which make it big, but big with the linux market because they develop for cross-platforms. take, for example, BZFlag and Battle for Wesnoth. two games which are completely cross-platform, of course, there are more windows players than there are linux players, but without the linux community to back that game, the number of players would not be enough to warrent them to continue development. there are two ways to look at application development. you can either cater to windows users and ship as soon as possible or cater to everybody and take an extra few months to get everything working.
in the end, its your call. im just giving you my two cents which is based off personal experiences within the linux and FOSS community.
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I'd prefer native myself, but if it works 100% correctly in Wine, that would certainly be good enough for me.
Yes indeed. I have no Windows systems, nor will I ever again if I can help it. I also buy native games without a second thought, WINE-supported not so much. If you need help porting, you can always hit up a porting house like Icculus (http://icculus.org/), LGP (http://linuxgamepublishing.com/), etc. There are even talks (http://www.cambrianhouse.com/idea/idea-promoter/ideas-id/3kdMwdK/) about community-backed ports of commercial games; such a thing would be fairly new ground, but I don't think it's a bad concept. There are also other small shops out there who have successfully ported Linux games and built a loyal fanbase, such as Wolfire (http://wolfire.com/) and S2Games (http://savage2.s2games.com/). David of Wolfire first posted an "Ask Slashdot" segment which attracted interest and potential porters for his project early on: http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/03/1614214 Such a thing might not be a bad idea if you're considering it.
P.S. - For what it's worth, I've purchased games from every one of the vendors I linked.
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Yeah, I still don't see the Linux community making a big impact on our "success". I think there'll be a big enough PC and Mac audience. I don't think the Linux audience would make up a large chunk of that.
Battle of Wesnoth is also freeware. It makes a lot more sense to release freeware games on all platforms. But if you think about the Linux community, they don't want to pay for their OS or much of the software that they use. Why are they going to want to pay for games?
Ultimately, there's no way we'd delay the PC + Mac version just so we could release a Linux version at the same time.
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Presumably it's popular enough to be economically viable for other companies. Linux definitely has a very small market share (~ 1%). I'd think, however, that the Linux market is by its very nature likely to have a higher ratio of gamers than other platforms - the relative number of Linux and PC/Mac users within your target market may compare more favourably than a strict user base comparison. They're also probably more likely to support small studios - because part of the appeal of Linux is sending the major corporations a big "up-yours". But then, I'm no market analyst - you'd really need the figures to back up such a move.
In the end, it's always a trade off. If you could churn out a Linux port with relatively little stress, then it's practically a free lunch - but if that time could be better spent elsewhere...
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i dont think there is enough linux out there to even bother wasting time with it.
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Yeah, I still don't see the Linux community making a big impact on our "success". I think there'll be a big enough PC and Mac audience. I don't think the Linux audience would make up a large chunk of that.
You are right. It won't make a big impact on your success. It will, however, make a big impact on the Linux users, and that's a shame, because I'm a one of th
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Yeah, I still don't see the Linux community making a big impact on our "success". I think there'll be a big enough PC and Mac audience. I don't think the Linux audience would make up a large chunk of that.
Battle of Wesnoth is also freeware. It makes a lot more sense to release freeware games on all platforms. But if you think about the Linux community, they don't want to pay for their OS or much of the software that they use. Why are they going to want to pay for games?
Ultimately, there's no way we'd delay the PC + Mac version just so we could release a Linux version at the same time.
Let me introduce myself : I'm an old gamer of 31 summers. I'm one of those guys who played on Atari VCS 2600 when I was 4 !
I'm using linux for 6 years now, as full replacement for Windows. I'm not a developper, i'm an accounting manager and I have worked 6 years as IT project leader, so I have to be considered as a final user (or power-user if you wish, but no developer).
I've seen the video of your game, it's awesome. I'm VERY glad that some people are using nowadays technologies to write games that I have played 15 years ago (remember Xenon2 on atari 520 ST/SE, "Shadow of the Beast", Amiga 500/Atari ST, or, more recently (10 years ?), "Shadows of Darkness" ??).
I thought I could never play again to quality 2D games, as 3D games are now the rules when writing the Third chapter of 2 previous versions of a game that was engineered for 2D action (they 3D'd games like Mario !?! WTF !)
I was impressed by the art-work of your game. I think, that, like me, a lot of "old-gamers" would be pleased to buy that game for their child (mine will come soon on next january !! :D ) as those kind of games are not violent and are easy to handle for a child.
As nostalgia, I could even buy your game for playing it myself, but I don't think that you will hit big markets shares with that game. Why ? Simply because hard-core games wants 3D, and, MOST OF ALL, multi-players capabilities.
If you don't have that, you are out of the biggest part of the game market. Perhaps not with a Nintendo DS version, but with only a desktop computer version, you are out.
I don't mean you won't sell anything, I just say you are like Linux users, you are on a very limited part of the market (on which, I've to admit, you don't have any serious competitor, as big studios prefer developing the next blockbuster "UT3-QuakeWars gets trouble in Super-Commander of Warcraft"...).
But you are proposing a high quality game, with no competition as most players are now used to 3D games, not 2D.
Let's talk again about past things, to understand little more the nowadays market.
I used to play in 1993 at a game which was fairly "simple", was made "shareware" so you could play a single level without paying and getting more if you payed only a few bucks.
This game was a simple Pinball (I don't remember the name of the game yet), made by a little development studio named "Epic Games". They were probably 2 to write that game.
Next years, they issued a battle game, named "One Must Fall", which was a "shareware copy" of the blockbuster "Street Fighter".
They have made all their game release as sharewares. I think we can say that all the people all over the world to use shareware were "a community" which was rather out of the "big game market". I also think that today, those sharewares users have become Linux users, as shareware is not as far as Open-Source/Linux spirit.
I'm talking about the same EPIC of today, the one that is developing Unreal Tournament 3 (and the one that has said that a linux version will be made available).
Another little game development studio was hitting the shareware community in 1993 with a shareware called "Doom". You know what happened next.
Well, ID got a success because they made a game completely different, a breaking innovation. But they started also with "simple" 2D games (Commander Keen, another Shareware).
So, please, don't tell the community won't help you in your success.
But, I can understand, that you can have difficulties to port your game to Linux.
So, let me continue.
As I said earlier, your game is "out of the market" because you don't have big 3D and no multi-player mode.
For that, I think that the code of your game is rather simple (no offense in that, I wouldn't be able to even write a single line of a game program). For that, I think that if you should have difficulties in coding, you simply open-source your code, as no-one will care about stolen your code to write another game like the one you are preparing.
Your added value lies in the art-work, not in the code. So, don't lose time coding something that others can do for you, and open-source your project.
With that open, Linux community will carry the port for you, help you fixing the last bugs that you should have on Mac/OS and Windows versions, and, mostly, the impact of open-sourcing, will that you'll be able to issue your game earlier than planned or issue a game with better quality as most extensively tested over much more users. Why not release a beta to do that ?
Open-sourcing your code don't mean "open sourcing the entire game", as you must keep a copyright on all the art-work. Open-source allows you also to sell your game.
Because, I think that linux users are ready to pay for what they use, since they want more linux support in that windows world. I also think that linux users are rather old like me than young, have jobs and understand that developing a game is long and costing task, and that we must pay for that.
I think linux users are "mature", know that piracy is theft and are waiting the opportunities to show to any game studio that a "still small but growing" market is waiting.
And, as mature people, they also can understand that the linux client could be issued later than the Windows client, as Windows is 80% of the market and that we understand you want to hit first the market with the biggest OS.
For my case, I buy all the games I've played on Linux (UT2004, Quake3 and Quake4, Doom3), and I buy those games on "Tuxgames.com" as I want to increase the sales statistics for Linux ports. I could have found that games cheaper in stores, or even cheaper on X-mule...
Finally, I think you have more to win than to lose at supporting the linux community. Epic and ID won't betray what I've said I think.
I hope that will make change your mind.
Cheers.
Luc VERNEREY, France.
(Sorry for my English)
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But most real Linux users pay for games. Please get that image of Linux users being cheap bastards out of your thick skull! >:(
you are on a very limited part of the market
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As I said earlier, your game is "out of the market" because you don't have big 3D and no multi-player mode.
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you simply open-source your code
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I think linux users are "mature", know that piracy is theft and are waiting the opportunities to show to any game studio that a "still small but growing" market is waiting.
You people are basically a band of thugs that live in a fantasy world.
The only reason you're here is to try to convince me to port the game to Linux to support your own vision of what you think Linux should be. It has nothing to do with the game itself. And its done without any consideration or concern for us, the developers. And yeah, there's only two of us.
If you were supporters of the game, you wouldn't be calling me an idiot and trying to peer pressure me into porting it.
The source will not be opened. That makes no sense at all.
The argument that we're not a mainstream game? Yeah, we fucking know that. We're indies. You think we need to be told that? You think we don't understand that? And you're somehow proposing that the non-existent Linux "game market" will radically expand our market? That is ludicrous.
I think we have the potential to sell well. I think there are people who are generally interested in the GAME ITSELF. Not just some cause. I think we've got a lot of good press and I'm looking forward to seeing how well we do with PC and Mac.
Smarten up, or I'm going to start banning people. This is just silly.
All I asked for was solutions to my problems of porting. Actual solutions like, "here is this easy to use audio engine". "Okay, I'll use it, thanks."
Not bullshit hippie/wishful thinking about an alternate universe where a small indie company giving away their only real assets, somehow means they won't be ripped off. Where unicorns and humans live side by side.
Fuck.
I was actually getting interested about doing a Linux port, and you guys ruined it.
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I'd love to see your game on Linux.
I'm normally much more willing to buy a game if it's got a Linux port. About 100% more willing ;)
Small title games tend to get a lot more attention by the Linux Game community, then the Windows. The Linux game community is small, but is starving for games, and with small titles it's best to cover as many potential customers as you can. The size of the "Linux Gamers" community isn't well know, but last I check the game RTCW:Enemy Territories was reporting a total of 12,000+ Linux clients playing, about a month ago. More then the number of Windows clients, although it is an older game, and the Windows users have most likely moved to other games, or aren't using XQF. The Linux users like my self have also moved on as well, to games like Quake 4, Doom 3, Defcon, and oddly enough World of Warcraft (using Wine), so I would assume that this number is far less then the actual number. I personally haven't player RTCW:ET in about three years, I'm waiting for Quake Wars.
Also many Linux Gamers are willing to buy games ported to Linux, more then ones that use Wine layered on top. It's more or less the idea of helping a weak area in the Linux community, and that's high quality games that natively run on Linux. Many are willing to over looked the closed source, just to play a good game.
As for the complexity of porting, it matters what was originally used to make the game, and how neat, and tidy your code is. Moving from DirectX to OpenGL can be a trick but it's not impossible. Linux is full of libraries for games like SDL, and OpenAL. If you make a Linux port, the Mac OS X port wouldn't take very long, considering the fact that almost all the most popular libraries for making games, are also available for Mac OS X.
I don't really care about the open sourcing of games, because they are so fleeting.
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Alright, now that I've got that rant out of my system....
The game runs on:
OpenGL, SDL, LUA and.. BASS
The game already runs on MacOSX. It runs great. The port was easy.
The problem is Bass, while being lovely and cross PC/Mac, is not cross-linux.
If there is another shiny, and easy to use audio library for Linux that is affordable, then I'd be more willing to consider a port.
I like Linux, I like some of the principles behind it. I'd love to port the game to support a small, but ideally growing gaming community, if the port can be straightforward and worth the effort.
HOWEVER
I am not interested in porting it to appease people who try to use intimidation to enforce their views on others.
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with small titles it's best to cover as many potential customers as you can.
While this IS true, you gotta realize, that by trying to port to linux Alec has to tack on quite a bit more time for coding the port, and when you consider that him and Derek have been working on this for so long, I doubt they want to tack on boring technical work just to appeal to a small niche of the market.
Time = work, work /= money. (I'd point Planescape: Torment as an example for that, so much work went into it and it got so little back, but then you'd probably just say something about how it's because it didn't natively run on Linux or something.)
Wait no. Maybe that last part went against what I was saying before. Ah well, fuck it.
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I'd buy a proper port for certain. I wouldn't go near a Wine-port though.
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What do you think of this: irrKlang sound engine?
Runs on Windows and Linux. (Mac is not supported, but I'm guessing you already use Bass on Windows and Mac, so only linux needs another sound engine)
You can probably get away with the low-cost commercial version for 65
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i'd support a linux port.
as for the audio problem: you said, it would probably take you a month of coding to get it working with openal... even though i'm not a fan of that practise, it seems quite common, that the linux installer/game client is being delivered after the release of the game. you'd probably even find some ppl, that are willing to help you for free for that matter.
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(...)
We're indies. You think we need to be told that? You think we don't understand that?
(...)
Smarten up, or I'm going to start banning people. This is just silly.
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Fuck.
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I was actually getting interested about doing a Linux port, and you guys ruined it.
(...)
Okay, first of all, I absolutely didn't know that you were indies. And I ABSOLUTELY DON'T CARE.
You think I made a condescending post because I'm french and you are indies, inserting that because of that I better understand things than you ?? :o
I'm not racist in any way and I respect all the job you have made so far. I was just trying to explain MY opinion in YOUR forum that there are some past cases of really good development supported by what could be called a community.
I don't understand what "unsmart" things I could have said by expressing that opinion, and I see that by some way, your answer is "fucking" smart...
Anyway, I can understand that you've been shocked by what I've said, and if I've been outrageous, that definitely wasn't my point.
If I should be the guy that, with a single post in a forum, "ruined your willing of doing a linux port", I think that anyhow, you shouldn't be very interested in that.
Ban me if you want (if you should do so, thanks please to completely erase my account), I don't care.
I just wanted to answer about what have shocked me the most in your answer (bold-red in the quote) to let you know that this has not to be taken has a mark of racism from me. I think I shouldn't have written that I was from France ?!?
Thanks.
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What's all this about racism? :-\ Indies means 'independent' - i.e. they aren't signed on to or owned by a major production house.
Regardless, (and this'll be the second time I've said it this week) "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar".
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Oupssss !!!!
Sorry. I was thinking that "indies" meant "living in india", not "independants".
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lol! *sigh* I believe it's safe to say my collection of games this summer will be one game short for sure.
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I have just looked at your trailer and the game looks beautiful, quirky, and fun. I am looking forward to playing the demo, when it's available.
That said, I would like to see a linux port, so that I can play the game using my OS of choice.
However, if it is not going to be cost effective, you shouldn't do it. I'm a software developer (not games), and I know that you need to decided if you will make that cash back, and that the general public do not realize that it's /not easy/ to port a title. In this case it's going to be hard to decide as the audio libs you have selected do not work on Linux. Maybe you should just take that piece of knowledge away from this, and use a lib that supports more platforms for the next game that you develop.
Anyway, I would like to play this game, and for me to do that I would have to buy a Linux version, so if possible, please do one if you can.
Cheers,
Cameron Morrison
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Ugh. The fanboys showed up ::)
Linux isn't a ideology for me, its a platform where I can do anything in a fast and simple way, which is causing me less trouble in my everyday work. But i'm a little disappointed in BitBlot that thinks all Linux Users are a clone of 'Richard Stallman', and wants everything to be open and free (You know free as in freedom, not in price). We are not a bunch of pirates, just some that like to be more productive, and use the right tool for the right work.
With that being said i use both Windows and Linux. And if Aquaria came out for Linux, then i am one step further to switch to Linux completely. But it is Bit-Blot's game and they own the rights of it, and it is also their time, and money that are being used to create this.
However, my point is that this game is so awesome that i will buy and play it, no matter what. Go create whatever you feel is best, and don't let them push you into something just because they're threatening you with not buying your game.
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Alec, have you thought about doing preorders? A couple other companies did this. (RuneSoft and Linux Game Publishing) Where if a certain number of orders were met, the game will be ported. Not so much the case for Linux Game Publishig, (that's what they do...) but RuneSoft did that. And it worked. (Got 200[or was it 400?] orders)
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Wow. What'd I miss? :O
This is, to be totally honest, something I've never seen in the Linux community. Perhaps I don't move in the right circles, but normally Linux users are more understanding than most when it comes to, for example, the difficulty of porting a game to another platform.
While I've only been using Linux for about 3 years, every single person I have met have treated me with the utmost politeness, and have always been forgiving and willing to help. All they ask for in return is that I speak, ask questions, and answer questions with some degree of intelligence.
This thread started out as a simple question about the feasibility/likelihood of a Linux port. (I myself dual-boot, so I will be buying the game no matter what. Even if I was Linux-only, I would buy the game to support you guys, because there is always the chance that I'll go back to dual-booting, or even just Windows, and I would like to play it.) I understand the mentality of Linux users when it comes to Wine - if you visit the Ubuntu forums' gaming section, I would say that more than 50% of the posts there are titled something like "lol im a newb how i get wow working on wine". The answers are almost always polite - even if it's just to say "use some initiative, and maybe read the FAQ, here's a link". But my point is, Wine is not good enough for games - when you have to go into a comandline and use an extra flag just to disable some audio debug messages which affect performance, it completely ruins the game experience. Having said that, a game which works *well* under Wine with no tweaking would be fine. For me, at least.
Alec, as has been mentioned here, Linux users are not all about free stuff. It's more about principles. The problem is, things like Windows and Office are very expensive to buy, and a lot of people don't feel that they are worth the money (quite rightly in the case of Windows ;) ). Especially when a bunch of guys is making an open-source equivalent which is just as good. The least you can do is support them by showing the world that you care. Indies are an extension of that ethic; the difference being that they try to make some commercial success. This isn't frowned upon in the slightest - everybody needs food on the table - and so, generally, if you've made something that's worth buying, we would be only too glad to give you something back by buying your game. I have been known to actually click on that Paypal "Donate" button that a lot of freeware devs have somewhere on their site, because I feel it's the least I can do. If something is shareware, even if you can use it for free indefinitely, I'll pay for it if I actually use it. :)
As for your audio problem, what will happen if you want to, for example, port it to the Wii? Will you have to change libraries then? If so, it may be worth waiting for a while until your options are more clear - release the game on Windows, see what happens, and come back and look at this, say, 3 months on. If a Wii (or any) port is forthcoming, that could be the perfect time to modify your code in such a way that would facilitate a Linux port. Of course, I'm speaking out of my ass here as a non-coder, so it's quite likely to be pure shite. :P
Another thing to take into account is the rarity of native Linux games. This actually works to your advantage. As good, native Linux games are like gold dust, nearly every Linux gamer will go out and get it because, well, it's a game, and it'll actually work on your system. Battle for Wesnoth is a perfect example - everyone plays it, because it's the only decent game out there.
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Ok. This is half my fault. I saw this game thought man that game looks really cool I wonder if they are going to do a linux version.
So I told a friend from IRC (RHLinuxGUY) to post a news post to this game and this forum post http://www.linux-gamers.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=2234
to try drum up support for linux and this game.
I have bought indie games before that exsist on linux (Penumbra Overture, Gish and Spacetripper) because I found them to be inivitive or just plain fun.
I have a feeling your game could be added to that list if it gets a linux port and I was hopping if we could show you that there are people who are passionate about linux AND good games you might consider spending some time doing a linux port.
EDIT: http://osalp.sourceforge.net/ there is another sound lib that you can check out for the linux version.
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As for your audio problem, what will happen if you want to, for example, port it to the Wii? Will you have to change libraries then? If so, it may be worth waiting for a while until your options are more clear - release the game on Windows, see what happens, and come back and look at this, say, 3 months on. If a Wii (or any) port is forthcoming, that could be the perfect time to modify your code in such a way that would facilitate a Linux port. Of course, I'm speaking out of my ass here as a non-coder, so it's quite likely to be pure shite. :P
No, you actually make a very valid statement. The BASS audio library is only created for Windows and Mac OS X. The FMOD audio library (as an example) on the other hand works on 13 different platforms (including Windows, Mac OS X, Linux and Wii) I think the only real disadvantage with FMOD is the commercial price (it is free if your game is free, but costs 3000$ for the most basic license) But a port to Wii will need rewritten audio code, I'm pretty sure of that. Actually, I think more than just audio code has to be rewritten for the Wii, but I have no idea how the Wii works, so that's just a guess.
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Hi,
At first I wasn't going to bother posting this, but this game seems oddly enchanting. Kind of like Ecco the Dolphin meets Seiken Densetsu.
In any case, I'm a Linux user, and I'd love to get a proper port of this (i.e. no compatibility layer such as Wine), but in all likelihood that will never happen and sadly I'll never get to play this game. There are two major stumbling blocks that contribute to this:
1. You have a small team (1 person in this case) with little experience developing for Linux.
2. Cross platform wasn't an initial objective.
The latter is the real deal breaker here. If cross platform development isn't part of the initial specifications of the project it will take too long and consume too many resources to port it.
Which is a shame, since I'd definitely have bought this game, and no doubt would have enjoyed it. I'm much more console oriented since I stopped using Windows some seven years ago, but I still got all the usual suspects like Neverwinter Nights and UT2004 for Linux.
So I'm not going to ask for a port of this game. I'm instead going to ask Alec to consider cross platform development for future projects since this seems to be the major issue regarding a port to a minority platform, which would otherwise be justified if it didn't consume so many resources.
Just to finish off, did you take a look at how Google made the Picassa Linux port? It's basically the original Windows executable bundled with Wine and hammered into working transparently (i.e. as a single package). I didn't even notice this at first until I listed the running processes. Not something ideal, but certainly a path which would present less resistance.
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Hi there,
as this is my first post here a few words to my person. I'm concerened with linux gaming since a couple of years now. I'm part of the linuX-games.net team and heard about this game about one of my colleagues. Now I would like to give here a few comments on the topic and a few arguments to port this game to Linux.
First of all I'd really appreciate aquaria beeing released as a native Linux game. In first place since there are too few recent titles for this platform and each new game is befenicial for Linux as a gaming market.
I fully understand the developer's position, who consider (and have to consider) twice whether they port their game to Linux or wether they don't since for Linux there is not (yet) a huge market like there is for some other OS.
On the other hand I can see a bigger potential for small companies to succeed in this sector and gain profit than for the big enterprises due to the lack of recent tiltles for Linux and due to the fact that even a relatively small number of customers makes a difference. I fully agree with RHLinuxGUY who mentioned the system of making mandatory preorders for the case the game is ported. So users decide if they want this game and developers got a direct feedback wether their efforts get rewarded.
At the end of y post I'like to mention, that our project is always interested in some feedback of game developers and publishers why or why not they consider Linux as a market and how the situation could be improved.
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Just to finish off, did you take a look at how Google made the Picassa Linux port? It's basically the original Windows executable bundled with Wine and hammered into working transparently (i.e. as a single package). I didn't even notice this at first until I listed the running processes. Not something ideal, but certainly a path which would present less resistance.
I was actually thinking that. I believe their port of Google Earth is very similar; just Wine as some kind of static library, and the actual program hacked to bits until it all works well enough to be acceptable. To be honest, as long as the Wine part is "transparent" I wouldn't be too fussed. (I believe some others have slated Google for this, but they at least accept that it's much better than it could have been!)
Also, I agree wholeheartedly that cross-platform, if it is to be intended, needs to be taken into consideration from the start of a project. If it is not, then there is almost no point to making something cross-platform, as it will essentially involve a complete rewrite of those parts which are not compatible.
wesley: I'm glad I'm not spouting nonsense! I do think it's worth a look, at least. I'm not sure what else would need to be rewritten, as I'm fairly certain there is an already-existing OpenGL implementation for the Wii.
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I was actually thinking that. I believe their port of Google Earth is very similar; just Wine as some kind of static library, and the actual program hacked to bits until it all works well enough to be acceptable. To be honest, as long as the Wine part is "transparent" I wouldn't be too fussed. (I believe some others have slated Google for this, but they at least accept that it's much better than it could have been!)
Ryan Gordon (same guy who works with epic to bring us UT for linux and mac os) did the port for google earth it was just googles photo thingy that was winelib
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Alec, I've read all your posts on this thread. Despite your monolog about how we are "idealistic crazy fool idiots", I quite agree with you: there isn't a huge market on Linux.
In fact, there is almost no market simply because there is not a lot of products to buy... And not because Linux users are non-gamers!
I desperatly want games on Linux, and as a developer in Ubisoft I hope I will help in this way one day (but it's not easy to persuade this kind of editors...)
Actually, I'm not very fond of your game. It's not a style that interests me, so I won't say the classic "+1 I'd buy your game if you do a Linux port".
If you don't want to port your game, fine! No big deal for me :)
However, think that maybe you could be one of the games that raised Linux to a game platform, as Ubuntu raised it to a desktop one.
Ok, it's completely idealistic! It makes you laugh? Fair enough... But for the moment, doing a game for Linux is being a pioneer, whether you like it or not.
I understand you're interested in the benefits a Linux port will bring you. But be aware that we are patient people and if the port is done in one year, we can handle it.
I'm not sure a Linux port will bring you lots of money. But I'm quite sure it'll bring code stability (as for all other multi-platform applications) and recognition from all the Linux users. Which is quite something as we can see the god-like status of the Epic and Id Software firms.
Now, whether you do a port or not, I honestly don't care. It makes 6 years now that I'm on Linux (without any Windows installed). I was a gamer and I still like it, that's why I work in this industry and that's why I buy consoles now.
I'm sure Linux will be a game platform, one day. In two years it has become a desktop OS with eye candy stuff etc, why not for gaming?
Apparently there is no sound lib that prevents you from months of work. Now you know it, you know the conditions to make a port.
You can still ask Bass to make a Linux port. Maybe they are already considering this, who knows?
Farewell my friend! :)
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I was actually thinking that. I believe their port of Google Earth is very similar; just Wine as some kind of static library, and the actual program hacked to bits until it all works well enough to be acceptable. To be honest, as long as the Wine part is "transparent" I wouldn't be too fussed. (I believe some others have slated Google for this, but they at least accept that it's much better than it could have been!)
Ryan Gordon (same guy who works with epic to bring us UT for linux and mac os) did the port for google earth it was just googles photo thingy that was winelib
Fair enough, I was misinformed. I was fairly certain that at least early ports were Wine-based. I probably got it mixed up with Picassa!
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If there is another shiny, and easy to use audio library for Linux that is affordable, then I'd be more willing to consider a port.
I have written a game for Windows & Linux (which also runs on the Mac & two other platforms I've never heard of) & have used SDL_Mixer (http://www.libsdl.org/projects/SDL_mixer/). I found it to be very straightforward to use. I've no idea if it will be enough for what you need, but you can find the documentation to read on it here (http://jcatki.no-ip.org/SDL_mixer/SDL_mixer.html). Like SDL itself, this library is free.
Hope this is of some help to you.
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I have had a closer look at fmod and they do an offer for shareware/hobbyest developers where it is only $100 I don't know if that is too much for your budget but you might like to consider it even if its only to get the fmod code in there for when you want to go the console route.
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Why, this thread certainly got a lot of attention. ;)
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Hello there!
I thought I would post to this thread after reading the article on linux-gamers.net.
It would be very exciting to have your game run on Linux as I know no other game which comes close to the style Aquaria has. I like the idea of an action-oriented game together with magical elements and non-linear gameplay. If your game proves to be fun (even though it has no multiplayer) I am certain it will have a long life thanks to the inbuilt editor/modding framework (just take a look at Blizzard's strategy games, Unreal Tournament... ) .
There probably isn't a huge market for Linux games yet, but once there are a few more, many more gamers sympathising with the Linux OS might switch and subsequently spend money on games which are available for it.
I encourage you to make a native Linux port, and if you do, try to track the number of customers who actually play Aquaria on Linux so you can get an idea about how much it influences your sales.
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Despite your monolog about how we are "idealistic crazy fool idiots"
I wasn't referring to all Linux Users, just a couple of people who posted here.
SDL_Mixer: I tried this a while ago, it can't stream two files at once, its crashy, cant load all files
FMOD: They'd charge us more than $100, I believe.
IrrKlang: Looks promising? I'll try to take a look at it when I get a chance.
Re: Porting to the Wii. That'd be a complete conversion. The code is set up to port though. The sound system is abstracted, it can be replaced with another system.
The problem is "just" finding the right system.
But, a Wii version would also play differently. So it would be much like writing the game again anyways. The Wii has special hardware, and a huge user base. There would be much more incentive and interest to work on a specialized port.
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That's an impressive trailer for the game.
I would buy this game if it were released natively for linux and it maintained what looks to be a great, original game.
Congratulations regardless on putting in the effort to make a great game, regardless of platform.
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Alec: Thanks for taking the time to at least do your best to also support linux. We can't ask more from you and Derek.
I hope IrrKlang proves to be a positive experience and that a linux port will be available not too far after the windows/mac release.
FMOD is very expensive if you are developing a commercial application, so that's a no-go. Shame though, because from what I have seen (or rather: heard ;)) it is a very capable and professional audio library.
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FMOD still can't crossfade two streams like BASS can, which is weird.
With Aquaria, there's a brief period where three streams could be playing at once. One music track fading out over another, with a voice over playing.
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SDL_Mixer: I tried this a while ago, it can't stream two files at once, its crashy, cant load all files
I suppose using channels in sdl_mixer is no solution, as it probably doesn't work with streams? http://jcatki.no-ip.org/SDL_mixer/SDL_mixer.html#SEC21
Well, and it's not the only problem according to you, so it might be best to forget sdl_mixer and look for something better.
FMOD still can't crossfade two streams like BASS can, which is weird.
Are you sure? The feature matrix claims this: "Advanced streaming engine supporting gapless stitching/sentencing of sounds, low cpu overhead, multiple stream support, over-ridable file callbacks and more."
http://www.fmod.org/ifmodfeatures.html
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SDL_Mixer: "Streams" are called "Music", and you can only play one "Music" at a time.
FMOD: Yeah, I tried implementing it before, and there were a number of roadblocks. The main one was that it couldn't fade while streaming on another thread.
It wouldn't be impossible to work around them, (i.e. by not cross fading) but the major thing about FMOD is the price.
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(http://www.zaphire.ca/AQ/failed.png)
SoundManager code is a mess because of past experimentation.
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SoundManager code is a mess because of past experimentation.
It's not that messy :) if your actual implementations also use ifdefs, the messy/unused code can easily be removed again.
And I guess the next thing in the list will be #include <irrKlang.h> now ;)
It's good to see that you have already experimented with all those libraries. At least you're trying to give everyone the best gaming experience, no matter what OS they use. I hope you two can pull off a stunt like that. I'm hoping that IrrKlang is here to save the day.
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Oh yeah, I just remembered the other thing that'll be a bitch for linux is case sensitivity.
Ugh.
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Oh yeah, I just remembered the other thing that'll be a bitch for linux is case sensitivity.
Ugh.
Haha, yea, that could be annoying if you don't care about case sensitivity when developing for Windows, but C++ by design is also case sensitive, right? So you only have to watch out for the filenames.
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Filenames are a big deal. If one file is not in the right case, it can't be loaded. That would mean not only would much of our content have to be renamed, but we'd have to test EVERYTHING just for Linux to ensure that there isn't a file that's named wrong.
Its like... every other major OS ignores case, why does Linux have to care.
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Filenames are a big deal. If one file is not in the right case, it can't be loaded. That would mean not only would much of our content have to be renamed, but we'd have to test EVERYTHING just for Linux to ensure that there isn't a file that's named wrong.
That is indeed a big problem. Are it really that many files? If you want, I can try to write a little bash script for you (for free) to scan the contents of a given dir + check the contents of your source (cpp, h) files and check for casing mistakes :) Would you be interested in that?
edit: I don't need your source for that, just say yes and I'll start scripting something you can use yourself to check the files.
Its like... every other major OS ignores case, why does Linux have to care.
Well, because in essence "a" is different from "A" (different ascii values as you know) and even though it would be easy to map a to be the same as A, or to use tolower/toupper conversion tricks, Linux wasn't developed this way. Actually, Windows only uses case sensitivity because in the old days Microsoft DOS only supported uppercase and to maintain backwards compatibility they didn't make a distinction between upper and lower case in Windows.
It might seem odd to you, but I actually find it odd that a lot of other operating systems do not know case sensitivity. It's just how you look at it. It makes sense to me.
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Yeah, it wouldn't be that simple unfortunately.
I think its odd to be case sensitive, because it makes things way more complicated and harder to implement.
I understand that Linux does that because of how it was built, but...
The way I look at Linux is it has this great potential. The potential to be an OS that a lot of people use, because its free, because anyone can work on improving it, etc. It has these great ideals behind it. But its got a lot of little annoying issues that cause big problems that prevent a lot of people from wanting to use/support it.
So I feel like it would be better to take those ideals, and just start a new OS from scratch, one that is based more around being user friendly.
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Yeah, it wouldn't be that simple unfortunately.
I think its odd to be case sensitive, because it makes things way more complicated and harder to implement.
Only to port things. If you start from scratch with the knowledge that casing matters, there is no problem. I hope this is not keeping you from porting the game to Linux. Actually, I could even write a script that checks case problems and automatically renames the filenames in the source files if you give me some time.
I understand that Linux does that because of how it was built, but...
The way I look at Linux is it has this great potential. The potential to be an OS that a lot of people use, because its free, because anyone can work on improving it, etc. It has these great ideals behind it. But its got a lot of little annoying issues that cause big problems that prevent a lot of people from wanting to use/support it.
I am aware of that. But please do tell us what the current problems are. I'm pretty sure I can fix casing for you with a little bash script. And then there's the sound issue. Have you tried IrrKlang yet? If there are more problems you run into, please let us know, so we can look for solutions together.
I am still hoping that a linux port will be possible.
So I feel like it would be better to take those ideals, and just start a new OS from scratch, one that is based more around being user friendly.
That sounds like: "Better luck next time, Linux boys/girls" :( So please tell us, what's in your head? Do you think a Linux port is still possible? Or impossible for Bit Blot?
I also want to say that I do not agree with the statement. Developing a new OS from scratch is a really bad idea. First of all, it will take many many years to develop something new. And second, a lot of Linux will probably just be copied anyway if we want a more user friendly Linux clone. Linux is becoming better and more user friendly at a fast pace. It is going in the right direction and is finally gaining some important momentum from a few big commercial backers.
The only problem that I see for developing for Linux for you is the case sensitivity and the audio library.
I don't think of the casing as a real problem. And if I finish my script for you, it can solve that problem automatically, so you don't really have to worry about that. And in the future you just make sure that your casing always reflects the real filenames. Make it a programming rule to always check it, even though you are using Windows.
Then the audio library. That's a hard one. Have you tried IrrKlang yet? It might be what you were looking for. The other libraries aren't very good for you though. OpenAL is too low-level (you already experienced that yourself, I think), FMOD is just too expensive for commercial games. And SDL_Mixer isn't capable of mixing multiple audio streams. So we could be at the end of our line here :(
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So I feel like it would be better to take those ideals, and just start a new OS from scratch, one that is based more around being user friendly.
"Linux is User-Friendly, it's not idiot friendly or ignorant friendly"
http://twitter.com/amin/statuses/128960342
You can do that and still use Linux. Linux is "just" a kernel, it doesn't distinct A and a, its filesystem drivers handles that. All you would need to is write up your own implementation of a filesystem, and then maybe make a new graphical frontend with Linux as your engine.
But sometimes i feel your frustration.
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Calling users idiots doesn't solve the problem. That kind of attitude is what keeps me from investigating Linux further. An OS should be built to support users, not insult them.
I am still hoping that a linux port will be possible.
I have to say I admire your interest and dedication to solving the problems. :)
I just don't think they'll be that easy to solve, unfortunately. :(
Filenames are weird. We have a lot of content, divided into different sections. Each section does things slightly differently. Some filenames are loaded out of scripts, some from txt files with lists in them, etc. Not all the filenames are in code. Some get converted to various cases when loaded in so that they can be easily compared.
Its not something that could be easily solved in one step.
IrrKlang looks like it handles allocation of sounds itself, i.e. doesn't let you load and unload sounds when you want to. I'm not 100% sure of this yet, but from skimming the docs that's what it seems like. What we like to do is load a directory of cached sounds, and load/unload local sounds per level to try an minimize the impact on memory.
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I am still hoping that a linux port will be possible.
I have to say I admire your interest and dedication to solving the problems. :)
I just don't think they'll be that easy to solve, unfortunately. :(
Yes, I am very interested in this project and I also really want to play/enjoy the game. I am not really looking forward to booting my older Windows laptop just to play this game. I will however buy the Wii version instead (together with a Wii, because I was already planning to buy one) when Aquaria is available there and if no Linux version is available by then.
But I don't want to think about that. If possible, I want to be able to play the game on Linux.
Too bad that it sounds like you're giving up, though. I can't blame you. The more I learn about the way the game is written, the better I understand the difficulty of porting it.
Filenames are weird. We have a lot of content, divided into different sections. Each section does things slightly differently. Some filenames are loaded out of scripts, some from txt files with lists in them, etc. Not all the filenames are in code. Some get converted to various cases when loaded in so that they can be easily compared.
Its not something that could be easily solved in one step.
Hmm, still sounds doable :) I actually have a better idea for a script. We can just grab all filenames in your game source/content directory (+ its subdirectories) and then execute sed commands on all files to automatically replace incorrectly cased references to those files by the actual filenames. A "quick and dirty" script to accomplish that can be written in a short time. It should fix casing in source files, script files and most text files. It will only fail for files that reference to other files in a wrong way (e.g. "fi le 1. tx t" instead of "file1.txt")
And is there a problem with the conversion to various cases? If you load in names from a text file and want to easily compare them by changing the case to lower or upper case, that should only be temporary for the check, otherwise I can indeed see the possible complications. And of course if you are checking the uppercase of a loaded filename to "FILE1.TXT" and the script changed "FILE1.TXT" to read "file1.txt", you'll run into other problems. The more I think about it, the less I think my script would be a solution. It could potentially make your code even worse if it runs into those cases. :-\
But still. I think it's not as big an issue as the audio library. You can take your time sorting out the filenames after you have successfully changed/subclassed your SoundManager. (Because to test the SoundManager I suppose you have created a small test application that tries out the needed combinations of the audio (e.g. multiple audio streams + voice over))
IrrKlang looks like it handles allocation of sounds itself, i.e. doesn't let you load and unload sounds when you want to. I'm not 100% sure of this yet, but from skimming the docs that's what it seems like. What we like to do is load a directory of cached sounds, and load/unload local sounds per level to try an minimize the impact on memory.
I spoke to some IrrLicht users (IrrKlang was officially created for the IrrLicht 3D engine) through IRC and I got this answer:
[01:02] <profoX`> Hello everyone! A friend of mine has this problem, can you guys give more information? --> IrrKlang looks like it handles allocation of sounds itself, i.e. doesn't let you load and unload sounds when you want to. I'm not 100% sure of this yet, but from skimming the docs that's what it seems like. What we like to do is load a directory of cached sounds, and load/unload local sounds per level to try an minimize the impact on memory.
[01:03] <Halan> of course oyuve to load it
[01:03] <Halan> but you can also stream from hd or ram
[01:05] <profoX`> I do know that he wants to use streams from HD or ram for background music. I think that my friend thinks that all sounds have to be loaded at one particular time and can't be unloaded/other sounds loaded when a new level commences
[01:21] <Halan> no
[01:21] <Halan> you just load it via a funciton
[01:21] <Halan> in the engine
[01:21] <Halan> and then do sound->drop()
[01:21] <Halan> and the memory is free again
I hope that cleared some things up. And I also hope that a Linux port is still possible :) Two thumbs up if you are able to create one. And, well, still one thumb up if you can't, because I will enjoy the game on the Wii if it will become available there. And if it won't, I'll *sigh* just boot up my old Windows laptop ;) But that's really not what I'm after. (Plus it's not the newest hardware on that laptop)
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Well I'm personally working on a sounlib (with an easy to use interface) ...
However it's alpha state ...
It's not useable for production yet :(
Neither do I currently have the time to complete it further ...
(I should have spend more time in my lib :)
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Thanks for the info. :)
The other thing about case sensitivity is for Mods...
It would force Mod makers to keep a consistent naming system if they wanted their Mods to be playable on Linux.
Its a pretty big issue I think, because Linux players would try to boot up a made-for-Mac/Windows Mod, and it would just die at some point just because of the cases.
So yeah, I guess I do feel that Linux would be better off to support that stuff, because it would make it easier for people to add files to a project. I understand its probably really impractical for any of the distros to add that support now, because people have been doing things the old way for so long. But it would really make a lot of things a lot easier for a lot of people I think.
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There are certainly pros/cons about case sensitivity, but I do not think it should be such a big issue.
Wouldn't it be possible to have a consistent naming in lowercase letters or a simple translation of letters when running mods?
I do not know very much about programming but I think such a function would not be very difficult to implement.
Correct me if I am wrong?
Good luck with the further development (and porting ;) )
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With the Mods, people are going to be creating their own files. So they'll be able to use whatever naming convention they want.
So when they load something, its up to them to enter it correctly. There's no way for the code to compensate, unless it checks for each variation of the name.
i.e.
someone creates an entity lua script files called asdF.lua
they enter it in the entity list as "Asdf"
So if the code converts it to all upper case, or all lower case, it doesn't matter. "ASDF" and "asdf" are both not "asdF".
People are liable to make mistakes like this here and there by accident. That's why I'm saying case insensitivity is more user friendly.
I imagine there's a way to get a list of all the files in a directory in Linux, and then run through them and do a case insensitive comparison... but why would I want to spend time writing something like that? The OS should just handle that!
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While I love the fact that you are trying to make modding as easy as you are, I think that people can figure out case sensitivity. I mean, Introversion's games run on Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux, and both Darwinia and Defcon have active modding communities. They have all figured out how to deal with case sensitivity. It really isn't that much of a big deal, in my not so humble opinion.
xander
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The problem comes when one creates a Mod for Windows or Mac, and then someone else tries to play it on Linux.
They wouldn't be assured to be compatible. Someone would have to test the Mods on Linux and ensure the filenames are correct.
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Make a script that searches for the files and find their real path that Linux can see, or simply make everything in small letters and let the game parse the filenames and convert them.
That could be a solution.
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The problem comes when one creates a Mod for Windows or Mac, and then someone else tries to play it on Linux.
They wouldn't be assured to be compatible. Someone would have to test the Mods on Linux and ensure the filenames are correct.
No, they wouldn't. But if someone tried it, they would get a complaint from some Linux-y person, and some other forum member would probably tell them to check their cases. I don't see why the onus has to be on you, the developer, to prevent users from doing silly things. Put a note in the editor that says that filenames are case sensitive under Linux, and that your mod will be incompatible with Linux if you depend upon case insensitivity. And remember, you can't make anything idiot-proof -- the second you come close, someone builds a better idiot.
xander
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In my experience, a mod maker who isn't dedicated enough to ensure Linux compatibility, probably also isn't dedicated enough to make a worthwhile mod ;) It's nice to see you're so concerned for the end user, but I really don't think this is the issue to pin a decision on.
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kawsper: addressed earlier in the thread
Its another unnecessary annoyance on a growing stack of crap.
And yeah, its not user friendly. I want to do as much as I can to make the experience user friendly, while still leaving it open for people. Linux just completely messes with that, and there's nothing reasonable I can do to fix it.
The "it will never be perfect" argument is all well and good, but the Windows and Mac versions are already more user-friendly just by the fact that they run on more friendly OSes and don't have to deal with this problem. So we're just supposed to expect the Linux version to be not as good? I don't think I can go into something like that with that attitude, it has to work at least as well, otherwise what's the point.
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but, C++ in nature is case sensitive. any developer or modder would understand this and just follow the same paradigm.
and to say that windows and OSX are case insensitive is not entirely true. when it comes to passwords, it is very case sensitive (windows got around that with their LM Hashing algorythm by converting everything to upper case). all OS's are natively case sensitive, its just that with windows and OSX it will convert everything to upper case (i believe OSX is lower case, but, i could be wrong).
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Hmm, I'm really split down the middle on this.
On the one hand, I'm a Linux user, and I certainly wouldn't mind dealing with these small inconsistencies (even if it meant that I had to edit every mod I downloaded before playing it), so I think that, soundlib problems aside, I would be happy with that the way it is.
One the other (and very much bigger) hand, this is your baby. You've hit the big-time with this (and deservedly so), and it's a labour of love for you. You're very proud of it. You don't want to see it compromised in any way whatsoever; you don't want to see people complain, which they inevitably would, if there were these kind of 'issues'.
While it's obviously not my business in the slightest, I'd advise leaving off a Linux port for a while. Who knows, maybe you could hire someone to take care of it once the cashflow is going your way, although I doubt that's an ideal solution! But at the moment at least, it does seem like too much trouble, especially as you must be going through some pretty rough testing/final stages right now.
@sakuramboo: Yes, but modding this game won't require C++. For simple mods, I'm guessing Photoshop(/MS Paint) skills and basic use of the ingame editor; for more advanced mods, all of the above plus a bit of high-level scripting.
On the subject of case sensitivity: from my
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Erm, I've tried to explain it over and over.
It doesn't matter if you convert everything to one case in the code, its the files that users can create themselves that will matter.
i.e.
they will try to load "asdf" in a user made script
but they've called it "Asdf" in the filesystem
A modder working on Windows or OSx won't have a problem, their mod will run perfectly fine. But when someone tries to play it on Linux, there will be a bitch fest. And "someone" will have to test the mod entirely to ensure every file is named correctly in the user made scripts and in the file system.
It boils down to forcing modders to name all their files a certain way, which I think is silly, since its not a requirement in the other two, more popular OSes. Its like inconveniencing the majority to please the minority.
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do the quake 2 modders see it as an inconvenience? do the ut2k4 modders see it as an inconvenience? how about the doom modders? of course not, because they all understand that modding and coding require case sensitivity.
please correct me if im wrong here (and i really do hope i am), but it sounds like to me you are looking for any and every excuse not to do a linux port, almost like you have already made up your mind and just want to convince everyone else that its not worth it. you are making case sensitivety out to be a much bigger problem than it really is. the whole modding community understands case sensitivity and also understands about proper naming structures. you call it an inconvenience while everyone else calls it proper naming schemes.
if the sound porting is too problematic for you, have you thought about getting outside help? the guys at icculus are always looking for freelance work, of course, at a small fee, but its always an option.
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A modder working on Windows or OSx won't have a problem, their mod will run perfectly fine. But when someone tries to play it on Linux, there will be a bitch fest. And "someone" will have to test the mod entirely to ensure every file is named correctly in the user made scripts and in the file system.
It boils down to forcing modders to name all their files a certain way, which I think is silly, since its not a requirement in the other two, more popular OSes. Its like inconveniencing the majority to please the minority.
To be 100% precise: some OS X installations also use a case sensitive filesystem (you can choose that when creating the filesystem)! So OS X will have the same problem for some users.
On the other hand, SOME linux users will be able to run your game natively on their filesystem, as the XFS filesystem can be created in a case insensitive form. Also, of course ntfs-3g (linux ntfs driver) doesn't have the problem.
But, most linux users run an ext3 filesystem or any other filesystem with case sensitivity on their root (it's not really possible to have a case insensitive filesystem there, because a lot of stuff relies on case insensitivity, just like in Windows some stuff relies on case sensitivity)
Anyway. Even if you decide not to support linux for this game, keep everything you have learned in your head for your next game. Make it a rule to always watch your casing. And try to use powerful cross-platform libraries as much as you can. Of course, SDL and OpenGL are a good start :)
[As a side note: ] linux on the desktop has about 3% market share, while OS X has almost 6% market share. These statistics were provided by Hitslink. Statistics by w3schools say that linux has about 3,5% market share on the desktop and OS X almost 4%. I think it's safe to say that they both are unpopular when compared to windows, but if you compare linux to OS X, then linux has a pretty good user base (even though OS X obviously is a bit more popular in both statistics).
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First things first, I'm not a Linux user so I don't have a vested interest - I'm not trying to convince you for my own sake. I honestly don't think this is as big an issue as it may appear from your end.
A modder working on Windows or OSx won't have a problem, their mod will run perfectly fine. But when someone tries to play it on Linux, there will be a bitch fest. And "someone" will have to test the mod entirely to ensure every file is named correctly in the user made scripts and in the file system.
Don't underestimate the community. Not only do I think that most good mod makers will ensure case doesn't become an issue, but even if they didn't there are people out there willing to create a Linux compatible version.
It boils down to forcing modders to name all their files a certain way, which I think is silly, since its not a requirement in the other two, more popular OSes. Its like inconveniencing the majority to please the minority.
If you felt it was necessary, to be honest I doubt free file naming is a liberty that anyone is going to dearly miss. The greatest inconvenience I can see with respect to this is if you need to alter your own scripts etc. to ensure Linux compatibility. It's in modders' interests to ensure compatibility - they want their work to get to as large an audience as possible.
I understand the compulsion to make things as good as possible, but this isn't a case of you having to settle for the imperfect or a compromise - whether people choose to ensure Linux compatibility is, in the end, entirely out of your hands. Bar some elaborate identification system, if it works then it is already as perfect as you can make it.
I don't know what else to say in this respect.
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*sigh*
Creating/naming files is part of the moding process. People will be creating new files through the OS. There's no way to control how people names the files at that stage.
I don't know why I keep having to explain this.
In any case, I think the stack of annoying problems leading to enormous amounts of work outweighs the audience. Which quite frankly, I can't say I'm inspired by.
I'm not really interested in adopting arcane practices to support a small and angry audience.
So, I guess all hope of a Linux port, or any future port of any of any future games to Linux dies here.
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I think what the actual issue is regarding casing was understood by most - I was just disputing that the onus is on you to ensure the compatibility of mods, when ultimately it's the fault of the mod maker if Linux compatibility isn't retained: Nothing is ever foolproof. You can't control them, though you can make recommendations to them if they want the widest distribution. And I can assure you, any good mod maker will keep this in mind.
In the end if the size of the audience isn't worth the effort, then naturally there's no reason to make a conversion. It just seems as if your stressing too much on issues that are always going to be there. I can certainly empathise with you re the Linux lynch squad, though I doubt the rest of the Linux userbase is quite that bad.
Again, I don't use Linux - I couldn't care less for my own sake. I undoubtedly don't have the full picture here, and so my impression of your situation is almost certainly oversimplified - but it just doesn't make sense to me to write off a potential source of income because of an issue like case sensitivity. But, whatever, in the end it's your prerogative.
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Well no, that's not the only issues, as mentioned.
Issues:
1) Small and Angry Audience.
2) Case sensitivity annoyances, would require a lot of work and would end up with Linux users bitching at Windows users even more for not making their mods compatible. Windows users wouldn't care.
3) Audio library would require a recode / extra money / extra time and effort. EIther it would take a lot of time, or it would not support the audio as fully as the other two versions.
4) Some way to protect game files (we have ways on Win/OSX, but not Linux)
5) Support. (Have a fair idea of how to support Windows, Ambrosia will help us support Mac... Linux? No idea)
6) Another full testing cycle. (Ambrosia will help us test OSX. But for Linux we'd have to get beta testers, and they'd probably be 90% of our potential audience!)
Now is it worth taking time out to deal with all those issues instead of:
A) finishing the game
B) possibly porting / spinning off the game to consoles, which would have a large game-friendly audience
C) creating new games
Either A, B or C are far more interesting and valuable to us than dealing with picky issues that shouldn't even be coming up in this day and age to support a niche audience that I'm still not convinced would even be interested in buying the game, let alone playing it.
And the overriding reason?
I just don't care about Linux anymore. This thread has crushed any interest I had in working on a port.
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Fair enough. I still don't see (2) as a major issue, but if the rest outweighs the positives then I can understand the decision.
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Oh for FUCK's SAKE.
LAST.
FUCKING.
TIME.
If it was case insensitive, we could play the game through once. Hey, it works, cool. Supposing we had a compatible audio library, we could port in like under a week. We could test a few things here and there. Hey, it works, great. Do a test cycle, if some file protection stuff is out there, done.
But its not case insensitive.
So we spend a couple weeks out from finishing up the game / working on more intersting ports, to spend converting file names and changing all the various areas of code that call files from various places. Files can be read out of a number of places. Not just the code, not just scripts. They have a few different conventions that make sense to windows but not Linux. They'd all have to be converted and tested.
Then say Derek or I makes a change to a file, but we forget to name the file exactly the right way. Oops. Major crash. Game dies.
Major fucking crash from accidentally not naming a file right.
Okay, so we have to do a super detailed test. Every file that could be loaded has to be tested. Otherwise we won't know for sure if they'll work. Files are in different folders. We can go through everyone and try to ensure that they're named right. But we're HUMAN BEINGS. We're liable to miss one. So we have to put together a beta testing team that has to play everything out. We do that. We run out of people who fit into the subsection of Linux users who are interest in playing the game and interested in buying the game, since most of them are on the beta.
Now the moders.
A Windows user creates a mod.
Creates new TXT file in windows. Calls it MyFirstScriptFile.lua. Enters it in the entity groups as Myfirstscriptfile. It runs fine.
It turns out to be an awesome mod. He releases it. People play it.
One of the three people that bought the linux version wants to play it. Oops, halfway through the mod CRASH. Reports it as a bug to us. I tell him there's nothing I can do, Linux sucks in that regard. He gets mad at me.
So we ask the mod guy, he's like "meh, I'll get around to it sometime". He doesn't, because he has a life.
Linux guy has to take it unto himself to convert the mod if he wants to play it. As he fixes each bug, he plays a bit more. Game keeps crashing every so often because he keeps missing files.
Fun is had by all except Linux dude.
Meanwhile he's found a crash in the main game that's caused by a series of odd actions that nobody would expect, leading to an rare script being run that was missed the beta testing.
Oops.
And that's on top of having to deal with the other aforementioned issues, which as of yet, have no clear, straightforward solutions.
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Anyways, I'm done reading this thread. I can't explain things to people again and again every day.
Buh bai.
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I wasn't meaning to attack you nor intending to be argumentative, and I'm sorry if it appeared that way.
I myself stated that sorting out your own levels would certainly be a major annoyance of the case sensitivity, and I agree with all the other points re beta testing etc. In previous posts regarding the case sensitivity, your main concern had appeared to be with respect to modding. I understand your point regarding this but I don't believe it would play out the way you describe - that doesn't mean to say I think it'll be all easy sailing based on that one point.
I'm not trying to convince you either way, and if it'll be as much trouble as you believe then I support your decision.
Obviously I've come across badly to you, and for that I apologise sincerely :-[ I was just trying to discuss the issues, not to force one perspective on you.
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Obviously I've come across badly to you, and for that I apologise sincerely :-[
Sorry, I'm just frustrated, needed to vent. :(
I'm sure I come across as the worst of anyone in this thread. ;)
I don't see why we can't all get along. :D But in terms of Linux port... I thiiink I'm going to take a break from thinking about it for a bit. :) Feel free to add your thoughts without being debated by yours truly for the time being. ;)
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Whoa, heated thread. :-X
I don't think a Linux port would be difficult for Alec because he's a superb programmer, so that's not the issue. The issue is that we're working day and night just to finish the PC version of the game and have been for a year and half now. Seriously, we haven't taken a single significant break in that time. We're also past our original intended release date and don't want people to wait any longer than they have to.
Ask a man with an elephant strapped to his back if he could also help you carry your groceries home for you and see what he thinks of that proposition! No amount of arguing is going to win out here... we just can't do it.
Regarding mods and case sensitivity, it's rather ungainly to have that discrepancy between Linux and Windows/Mac mods, although I agree that it's probably nothing more. It's also true that user created content is beyond our support, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we shouldn't care about such things. If the Linux userbase were much larger and there were easy, instantaneous solutions for every other problem, it'd be something worth letting slide, certainly. But since neither is true, let's just leave it at that for now. Okay? ;)
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Just to clarify my point, I don't care whether or not it makes linux, I'd rather see it released as early as possible, I'm hyped about this game :D
And frankly I believe if you install Linux, you made the choice not to play most games, especially when many still have windows installed and refuse to boot it because it is v1rz and games are oh so much better on linux.
Anyway, assuming that you haven't spread file loading to much around the game, case sensitive shouldn't be a problem if you attack it from another angle, instead of converting all the cases, why not simply have the game list all folders on start (for linux) and then it should be piece of cake to do a case insensitive search on that data, to find the case sensitive name. Should be possible to be made simple enough as to just have a define that takes an input filename and finds the case sentitive one and returns it, and for windows the define is simply pass-through.
It's not the prettiest solution, but people most likely won't notice the difference anyway, suits those Linux users :P
So, this is in no way an attempt to make you into developing a linux version, just my solution to ONE of the many problems.
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I know, it's over, so pleace be patient.
Just one thing I've to claim, and no, I don't want to insult you in any way: Do you think modders are silly? Just write one damn note somewhere and that should be it. As all ready said, for other (grea) Linux titles, there are thousands of mods, and? Yes. I've never heared, that one of them doesn't work under linux. Why? YES! In every modding tutorial theres a big fat headline: Hey guys, watch out for case-sensivity!
I completely accept your decision - and even if I didn't understand it, what should I do? The only thing that I'm really sad about is, that you won't port any of your future games to linux, at least if i understood you right :'(
I think the major problem is the sound thing... the next time ask in a Linux forum about a good library, there are the real g33ks ;)
And... even if I never thought that i'm going to say it: How does it look with WINE compability? Are you trying "support" it (in other words: Are you going to try to make it good-playable with WINE?)?
Good luck, happy coding ;)
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(http://www.msnpro.com/winks/SadPenguin.jpg) = sad linux user
Well, whatever. We can only respect your decision. I even understand it.
It's a pity for us - linux users - but there's nothing we can do about it.
And indeed, please do test your game in Wine and check for inconsistencies.
A game like this should be able to run fairly good in Wine by default.
To test the sound in Ubuntu (and most other distributions) you'll have to run winecfg, go to the Sound tab (wait a little while) and then uncheck everything, and check only the ALSA device. Click ok and try to run your game in Wine using "wine game" (or run the installer directly from the CD, Wine should autodetect the .exe - if not you can select Wine yourself - and afterwards run the game from the menus)
Wine is pretty amazing and is also able to work around the casing issue.
PS: I'm not upset. Only disappointed.
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Haha... I realised: We can forget wine. Wine is not really capable of doing this (fucking) copy-protection stuff, except we're lucky...
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I want a Linux version. Linux is the best plateform than I know!
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O_o
EDIT: some of these smiley are awesome. For example: O0
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I want a Linux version. Linux is the best plateform than I know!
And people complain about the blind fanaticism of Mac fanboys...
xander
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Nyea, well, there is no best platform.
Linux has its good things, Mac certainly has some too, even Windows has a few.
I actually still have a Windows machine in my house, but it's only used to transfer my homebrew GBA roms to my GBA, because the driver is Windows-only. And I might need Windows to play the upcoming Soldier of Fortune 3 (the only FPS I play) and of course this little fun game.
Obviously, all platforms also have weak points. Linux (also Mac for most games) for example does not appeal to most game programmers...
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You guys are all wrong about handling the case insensitivity. Its actually very easy to deal with. You're just looking at it from the wrong end. Leave the files and their names alone. PICTURE1.png is the same as picture1.PNG. Ok, now that's settled, then do as wesley or one of those guys noted and write a function that reads in file names for an entire directory. then, all you have to do is use a case insensitive string compare. its that simple.
STRCASECMP(3) Linux Programmer's Manual STRCASECMP(3)
NAME
strcasecmp, strncasecmp - compare two strings ignoring case
SYNOPSIS
#include <strings.h>
int strcasecmp(const char *s1, const char *s2);
int strncasecmp(const char *s1, const char *s2, size_t n);
DESCRIPTION
The strcasecmp() function compares the two strings s1 and s2, ignoring
the case of the characters. It returns an integer less than, equal to,
or greater than zero if s1 is found, respectively, to be less than, to
match, or be greater than s2.
That's the manpage, but its in the C standard so its supported on any OS which supports C, which is all of them.
I'm sure that C++ has something similar in std::string or something, but I don't know C++ as well. The point is
writing your own would be trivial, you just convert all filenames to lowercase after they are read in.
for each char if ( char <= 'Z' && char >= 'A' ) char += 'a' - 'A';
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man Alec, I'm sorry these guys fruited out on you. Thats not cool at all. I hear and identify with your pains and know that you guys are busting ass to get Aquaria finished. I'm a programmer. I've got a finished software mixer that currently works using a DirectSound backend sitting on my harddrive. It supports an arbitrary number of channels, and will stream one stereo audio track from disk in chunks. Its not buggy. It doesn't jitter. Its real simple and just works.
I've written small things in ALSA before. So plugging in an Alsa backend and the Ogg Vorbis probably wouldn't be too difficult. I code everything when I can, because there's always something, and I have a dayjob, so...
but if you want help, just ask. I mean, the whole OS fundamentalism is stupid. I'm a 6-year linux user. That's how I learned to code. there are some Brilliant, I just mean fecking brilliant projects written by linux developers and that's why I stuck around. Alsa for instance. But I realized that I my ultimate wish is to program games so I switched to Windows.
and I may be joining a company very soon that is developing for the Mac...
anyway, bit-blot rocks. Linux rocks too. fanboys and zealots don't.
peace.
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I response to the comment by the dev staff about not knowing the Linux indie market, I would like to say that I understand most Linux gamers to be indie fans. Most games that make it to Linux are decidedly not mainstream, but sell really well because of the population an open-source OS like Linux pulls together. In fact, I prefer running most indie stuff in Linux (using Wine or native distros) because I can (indie programmers tend to write cleaner, faster code that Wine likes). If you were to build a Linux release, post it on tuxgames.com or somesuch, rely on the indie population to hype it, you would definitely get your money's worth.
(A am psyched about this release. I first saw it on the Indie Gamer weblog, and have been following it's progress since then. Good luck in the home stretch here guys).
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Im just posting to show my support for a native linux client. Linux has a growing market share on the desktop and dell is even shipping linux pc's in europe. I would totaly buy the game if it was made available for linux. Possibly you should ask icculus at icculus.org for any help, he has ported many great games to linux. Thanks.
I also wanted to say it would be nicer to have a linux port instead of wine. Wine is alpha or beta software i think and does not do the best job always.
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I would love an linux port.
But if you don't think there's an market for the Linux platform then set an goal and take preorders.
Like the port will be done after 300 preorders for Linux.
I my self miss 2D games there to few on the market. (3D games makes me dizzy)
Good luck and keep the good work going.
And i hope you can solve the audio issue.
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Oh, shit. (http://www.bit-blot.com/?p=19)
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Oh, shit. (http://www.bit-blot.com/?p=19)
You're just a big tease really aren't you Alec?
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The ports' real at any rate. I should know, I haven't slept in 24 hours. =_=
The naming convention stuff is a pain in the arse. I'm trying to make everything lower case, but there might be some folders with different systems... we'll see. The best would be if everything was consistent.
I'm using SDL_mixer, rewriting code to avoid music tracks overlapping, and going to be pre-loading the voice overs instead of streaming them. Going to be a lot of fiddling to get that to work just right.
Both of those have caused the Windows + Mac versions to break, but hopefully I'll be able to get everything working again in a few days. (I hope...)
I had a few questions for Linux peeps.
- Is there an "Alt-Tab" equivalent?
- What is the expected key combination to switch fullscreen/windowed?
- Quick quit key combo?
- i'm using Code::Blocks for an IDE atm. If anyone has any other suggestions, lemme know.
Edit: Oh yeah, if anyone's curious what's going on at the end, I right clicked on the mossy rock, which would normally get Naija to swim over and sit on it. But for some reason the path finding code isn't working in the port yet, and Naija just gets stuck swimming on the spot.
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I have to say, the game is looking downright awesome! I hope all goes well.
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- Is there an "Alt-Tab" equivalent?
For me it's the same as in Windows. I can switch between windows with Alt+Tab if it's that you mean. (I'm using Gentoo Linux and Gnome)
You can also switch between workspaces with Ctrl+Alt+"Arrow keys" (Some fullsceen apps don't allow me to Alt+Tab)
- What is the expected key combination to switch fullscreen/windowed?
From the games i have played it's usually one of the F1-F12 keys. (If i remember correctly some use Alt+F or Alt+Enter)
Maybe an F1-F12 key again. Or as i prefer it: Esc then q. (Esc for main menu)
Thank you for putting so much effort in the port! ;)
Hope you solve the problems with the Windows + Mac ports too!
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Nice! I just came across the game and was sadly reading through this thread and thought all hope was gone for a linux port.
I would second ZedDB on the Alt-Tab for window switching and the Alt-F for fullscreen. I know a lot of programs that use Ctrl-Q for quit, but there really isn't a standard, sadly.
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For me it's the same as in Windows. I can switch between windows with Alt+Tab if it's that you mean. (I'm using Gentoo Linux and Gnome)
Thanks!
Yeah, I can alt-tab... but not while the game is running. Not sure if its the game's fault or if that's just how Linux works.
Mainly want a way to get out of the game window without quitting.
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Yeah, I can alt-tab... but not while the game is running. Not sure if its the game's fault or if that's just how Linux works.
Mainly want a way to get out of the game window without quitting.
Hmm. After some testing on my end it seems like i cant Alt+Tab from any of the native linux games running in fullscreen that i tried. But it works with almost any "WINE game" (In some chases it didn't work there either).
I'm not that good at linux so i can't say if it's a problem at my end or if it's that way.
But as i stated before I can Alt+Tab when they are in windowed mode. So at work around would be to push the fullscreen/windowed hotkey and the Alt+Tab and when your done just Alt+tab back and push the fullscreen/windowed hotkey again (If you want to run the game in fullscreen that is...)
If you still can't switch when it's running in windowed mode I don't know what the cause would be...
But you should be able to make it at least tabable in windowed. I don't know how tho...
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OMG thank you!
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The ports' real at any rate. I should know, I haven't slept in 24 hours. =_=
The naming convention stuff is a pain in the arse. I'm trying to make everything lower case, but there might be some folders with different systems... we'll see. The best would be if everything was consistent.
I'm using SDL_mixer, rewriting code to avoid music tracks overlapping, and going to be pre-loading the voice overs instead of streaming them. Going to be a lot of fiddling to get that to work just right.
The naming is indeed a pain.
The rewrite to SDL_mixer is pretty cool. If you really want multiple streams you could check out the SDL_mixer code though. I haven't looked at it, but would it really be too hard to fix a quick hack in SDL_mixer to play multiple streams? Well, of course it's not really a problem if you can avoid the track overlapping. Fade out + Fade in is nice too :)
Both of those have caused the Windows + Mac versions to break, but hopefully I'll be able to get everything working again in a few days. (I hope...)
Haha. I hope so too :) But I'm sure you can do it in a small amount of time, seeing how fast you were able to port this stuff to Linux after putting your mind to it for a day. Really... That's some great stuff you're doing.
I had a few questions for Linux peeps.
- Is there an "Alt-Tab" equivalent?
- What is the expected key combination to switch fullscreen/windowed?
- Quick quit key combo?
- i'm using Code::Blocks for an IDE atm. If anyone has any other suggestions, lemme know.
Alt-Tab: In the popular KDE (KWin window manager) and GNOME (Metacity window manager) desktops (and also in the recently hyped Compiz-Fusion '3D' window manager) Alt-Tab just works to switch windows (eventhough Compiz-Fusion also has this neat Super-Tab that shows your windows in a circle..)
Expected key combination to switch fullscreen/windowed: I think alt+F or ctrl+F is pretty logical.
Quick quit key: don't be funny - nobody wants to quit this game ;) ... I'd say Ctrl+Q, that one is used quite often, but really I'd prefer no quick quit key... you wouldn't want to accidentally press it... Esc should bring up a menu, and from there you can quit. I think that's the best way.
Code::Blocks is pretty good. I use KDevelop myself. And a lot of people like Eclipse. And the real freaks just use vim or emacs ;)
Edit: Oh yeah, if anyone's curious what's going on at the end, I right clicked on the mossy rock, which would normally get Naija to swim over and sit on it. But for some reason the path finding code isn't working in the port yet, and Naija just gets stuck swimming on the spot.
I'm sure you'll fix it :)
Yeah, I can alt-tab... but not while the game is running. Not sure if its the game's fault or if that's just how Linux works.
Mainly want a way to get out of the game window without quitting.
Are you grabbing keyboard/mouse input in SDL with SDL_GrabInput()? That could be the problem. Try setting it off when you press Esc or something, if you are using it.
Otherwise, Alt-Tab should keep working fine.
I'm very glad that the port is becoming reality. You're doing a great job and you have my support. besides buying the game, I will probably donate some extra money for the effort.
Thanks, alec-dude. You made my day.
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/me hands Alec a cookie
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For reference, the new issues in all 3 versions are all due to switching to full lower case to support Linux's stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid case sensitivity. And no, they're not all resolved yet.
I can expect to be finding and fixing these bugs for the next month. I have to comb the entire game and test every single thing that can happen to ensure that it all works. So expect the game to be delayed even further because of this.
Also, sdl_mixer is sub par. Ogg looping isn't seamless. (I hacked in a fix for this, but the way sdl_mixer is set up, it'll take one of the devs to actually put it in properly) Fading out sounds/music is chunky and noisy on headphones. Other indie developers have told me they've had problems with sounds lagging in sdl_mixer.
Great.
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Not to sound like a dumbass or anything, but wouldn't have been easier to only make the linux version with the lowercase letters?
Then any problems related to mods and such would be isolated...you could release the linux version a month later, and keep the other ones on track.
Of course, I haven't slept in a day (stupid harry potter book) So, it might be stupider then I think atm.
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Makes more sense to break all the versions and test them all now, because we can test common problems on platforms that have more testers. Otherwise it'll just be more of a pain later.
Also I'm getting really tired of recoding audio 500 times. I just want one library that works for all platforms, so I can implement it once and have it work on all three.
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Oh man... you're absolutely amazing!!!
A Question: How are you going to distribute it? Like Quake // Doom with a patch? Or will there be 3 versions of the game?
-One windows Edition
-One Linux Edition
-One Mac Edition
?
And again, thanks for the work!!!
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One thing that's absolutely certain - if I understand the situation correctly - is that the Mac version is separate, since it's published by Ambrosia. Given the extremes that Alec's now going to in order to make a Linux version, I'd assume we're not looking at a combined Windows/Linux package, but then I may be completely wrong.
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Welp, gonna email the FMod folks and see if they can score us a reasonable license. I've heard from other devs that they're merciful to indies, so maybe it won't be as painful as I originally thought it would be money-wise.
Let's all hold hands and hope together!
:D
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We can always all go out and donate...erm...Bodily products?
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Welp, gonna email the FMod folks and see if they can score us a reasonable license. I've heard from other devs that they're merciful to indies, so maybe it won't be as painful as I originally thought it would be money-wise.
Let's all hold hands and hope together!
:D
It just so happens that I contacted them two weeks ago. I got a friendly reply in 24 hours. They are good guys. My question was completely different from yours though :) I wanted to know if it was possible to get FMOD sourcecode without buying a commercial license. And they thought about it, and they are keeping that a future option, but the problem right now is that there are some legal issues and it would need a license restructuring. Anyway, my point is that they are very friendly and openminded. I'm rooting for you.
Oh, one little note though. I wasn't able to get sound working in FMOD through alsa dmix when I tried it. (dmix is a software alsa mixer) If no other sounds were playing, then FMOD sounds played fine, but otherwise no sound coming from FMOD. (the opposite was also true: FMOD blocked the sounddevice so other applications couldn't output sound if FMOD was being used..)
I think I'm going to look into that issue further if you decide to go for FMOD, because it's very weird.
Oh, and irrKlang was no good, I guess?
PS: I see that you read my blog message ;) I translated the most important bits to English in the comment following your comment.
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- Is there an "Alt-Tab" equivalent?
That's a tricky one. You can usually press Ctrl+Alt+/ to "ungrab" keyboard from the game and then use Alt+Tab. To allow the ungrab operation, you need something like this in your /etc/X11/xorg.conf file:
Section "ServerFlags"
# other stuff here
# ....
Option "AllowDeactivateGrabs" "on"
EndSection
The only problem with this solution is that OpenGL application running in the same X session can make the rest of the desktop painfully slow. For that reason I've developed a tool called QGameX (http://www.kde-apps.org/content/show.php/QGameX?content=48532) - you can use it to run the game in a separate X session - to switch between X sessions, use Ctrl+Alt+F7, F8, and so on.
I am looking forward to the game. I think I'll write a game review and publish it on AbcLinuxu.cz when the game is available :-)
If you need a Linux betatester, I volunteer :-)
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I don't want to sound stupid either, but couldn't you just write a script that would change all the cases to lowercase? It seems there must be some alternative to manually going through and changing everything. Unless of course, you're working on something much more clever.
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I don't want to sound stupid either, but couldn't you just write a script that would change all the cases to lowercase? It seems there must be some alternative to manually going through and changing everything. Unless of course, you're working on something much more clever.
Please read through the older posts in this topic and you'll understand why it's not that easy.
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Thanks again for going Linux! I can't wait to get my copy.
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Holy shit, Alec, you've just made me change my mind. I don't need to install Windows XP after all. You're awesome.
Personally I've always been a fan of Alt-Enter for fullscreen. I'm not sure about a quick quit key.
Also Code::Blocks seems quite good, from what scant messabouts I've had with it. Although I hear something along the lines of "if you don't get the nightly builds, you're using a shit version" is pretty much the convention with that.
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I digged the "robbery" at Digg, it got 5 diggs, so we i think we have gotten a few new members on that account.
http://digg.com/linux_unix/Bit_Blot_announces_progress_in_their_Linux_port_of_Aquaria (http://digg.com/linux_unix/Bit_Blot_announces_progress_in_their_Linux_port_of_Aquaria)
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I wrote earlier in this thread that I'd buy the game if it were ported to linux. I'm back again to assure the developers that I will buy the game and with all the more joy now that they have embraced the idea.
I hope all other linux users on here will do the same and purchase the game for linux when it's released. Much respect to the developers for hearing their audience and taking a step few have had the vision to see yet.
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Please read through the older posts in this topic and you'll understand why it's not that easy.
So poor Alec has to go through every file in his game and change them one at a time by hand, then he has to change all the references to those files, and then he has to get the music going and then he has to beta test and fix even more mistakes? That must suck.
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My plan is make everything lower case. Its easy to change all the filenames to lower case. What's hard is getting the code to work properly with that, because in some places its relying on the case... and its hard to find all those cases. Files can be referred to in the code, but they can also be referred to in the Lua scripts. It isn't like there's just a few places where files are loaded, there are many.
It seems now the major stuff is converted, but we have to test everything to make sure, and there's a lot of content in this game.
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Wow!!! Keep up the good work!!!
Thanks for explaining that :)
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Make Aquaria case in-sensitive like windows is. This way you don't change the actual file names, but just change them internally, in the program code. this is what Doom & Quake do. This way developers and modders can call the files whatever they like, but inside the code the file names are run through a filter and changed to all upper or all lower.
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Yeah, I'm already doing that, and in some cases that works fine, converting everything to lower case internally and using no case string comparisons where applicable.
But not everything is handled by the "aquaria" code, e.g. including other lua files through lua. That's an automated lua process that I can't change, I just have to change all the include files in the 100+ scripts files and then ensure that they all work.
In the end, its never a case of "just" doing anything, there are lots of places where names of things are checked. There's no way I'm going to be able to catch them all just by "guessing", its going to require testing EVERYTHING.
i.e. Even in the "aquaria" code, there are many places where the names of objects are checked. Now that we're switching to lower case, they're not going to be consistent. There's no way I can know where all those instances are ahead of time, because there's a lot of different places where it can happen.
e.g.
entities used to be called stuff like
"HappyGoLucky"
That was my nice camel case filename convention that I had to let go of.
Now in the code they're all converted to lower case, all the filenames are lower case etc...
but I'm sure there's still some lua scripts out there that are getting the name back and comparing it to "HappyGoLucky", when now it'll be "happygolucky"
i.e. entity_getName(entity) == "HappyGoLucky"
that'll fail to run like it did
I'm sure there's a ton of other little things like that too.
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Perhaps you could use a regular expression search on your scripts? make it search for uppercase characters within strings/quotes? that might help the process.
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its going to require testing EVERYTHING.
judging by the forum you shouldn't have much problem finding testers. ::)
In the end, its never a case of "just" doing anything
yeah, true that. and I hadn't even considered lua. forcing case consciousness for scripters might not be such a bad thing, after all, the fact that they are writing their own scripts implies a certain aptitude.
the leaked ubuntu video looks great btw.
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but I'm sure there's still some lua scripts out there that are getting the name back and comparing it to "HappyGoLucky", when now it'll be "happygolucky"
i.e. entity_getName(entity) == "HappyGoLucky"
wait, you can't do that anyway, compare a string with == can you? unless its some overloaded C++ operator that I'm not aware of. in this case you might still want to replace those with if ( !strncasecmp( entity_getName(entity), "HappyGoLucky", sizeof(typicalEntityString) ) )
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In C++ you can with std::strings.
But I was referring to a script written in Lua. :)
And that's why I can't control it.
To do so, I'd have to replace entity_getName() with a function like entity_isName(entity, "Albadfkf!@4") so it can convert internally.
And I'm doing that to the scripts where possible, but obviously, changing all the script functions will still require a load of testing by us.
So yeah, I said it above, I'll say it again, I'm trying to make things case insensitive where possible.
But that doesn't make things take any less amount of time.
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Hey, if you want extra testing, I'll buy the game right now if you give me access to the linux alpha/b
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If only it was that easy, Wesley....
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If only it was that easy, Wesley....
True. But it doesn't matter.
They'll get it done.
I believe in alec ever since he did a coding spree to do a quick test/port from Bass to SDL_mixer ;)
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To do so, I'd have to replace entity_getName() with a function like entity_isName(entity, "Albadfkf!@4") so it can convert internally.
And I'm doing that to the scripts where possible, but obviously, changing all the script functions will still require a load of testing by us.
yes, this becomes a problem if parts of the Lua creatures are hardcoded. but for the parts that are read in from external scripts, couldn't you convert everything to a unified case at read time?
So yeah, I said it above, I'll say it again, I'm trying to make things case insensitive where possible.
But that doesn't make things take any less amount of time.
sorry this is so much work. you're doing the work of a whole team. I hope you get to wade in swimming pool filled with money or date Jessica Alba or something for all your effort. :)
edit: oh shit, sorry if you have a girlfriend
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Actually, I was referring to how you want to get into the beta...
Anyway, The code monkeys are hard at the gridestone. Either way, I can't wait :'(
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Sorry to bring up an old thread.
Firstly I'd like to ask how the Linux port is going? it seems the discussion died down about it somewhat.
I'm wondering how you guys are handling the OSX port in terms of case sensitivity. I don't really know why this hasn't been posted in this thread, but OSX's file system is also case sensitive (as are all the ones I've heard about apart from the Windows ones). OSX is based on BSD and hence is Unix-like, much like Linux. Both OSs use file systems which are case sensitive. Maybe the old HFS filesystem wasn't, HFS+ and the upcoming ZFS filesystem are case sensitive, so you would be running into identical problems as you are with Linux. I don't like how Linux is being blamed for that.
Also it's quite probable that, given that Windows will ditch backwards compatibility, Vienna (or whatever the next Windows will be called) will also feature a case sensitive FS since it's the logical thing to do.
Having skimmed over the Comparison of File Systems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_systems) wiki entry I noticed NTFS is case-sensitive as well... so aren't you having problems either way? I might be being ignorant since such a thing would be hard to miss...
I'd also like to say that I am interested in the port. I won't say that I will buy the game, as I don't know if I would want to play it (irrespective of platform), but if I were to buy it I would only do so if it was a Linux port since that is my OS of choice.
I don't know about others but being a Linux user I tend to look at quality over branding/flashy graphics (not that Aquaria doesn't look great). Windows users may not see this as a great game because I think Windows users tend to look more at the graphics and how mainstream the product is, so selling it in that market may not be too great. The whole concept of having a 2d side-scroller is pretty much considered to be "old" and people don't like "old" stuff.
There is definitely a small market on the Linux platform, but it's a tricky issue. As someone has already mentioned it's a "Catch 22" scenario. You can't really buy anything that doesn't exist, so you can't accurately say how big the Linux market is. There are a lot of great games on Linux, a lot of them are open source, but most (apart from the commercial ones) tend to look old. I don't know why... either way there aren't many games that are attractive to a typical Windows user. There are games like the Quake, Doom and UT series as well as some other mainstream games but that's about it. People don't want to game on Linux because it lacks the big titles that are on Windows. Because of this companies also don't see any profit in Linux, and the circle closes, Linux is left without any major titles to bring in more users. There's also the issue of DirectX which locks in developers to the Windows platform, but luckily it does not apply for Aquaria.
It is early days for Linux, and gaming hasn't really been born yet. Linux (and *BSD and even OS X and similar) needs companies, or indies, to develop games so as to create the possibility of a market. Linux will most definitely grow, but it will grow faster if (good) games are available on it.
I'm not really targeting that at you, I'm just describing how I view the whole issue of gaming on Linux. I see that the port is going well, and hope that you do get there. It would be great to have a cool and original game like Aquaria on Linux and hopefully you will be part of the developer community that paths the future of Linux gaming :).
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I guess that while a file system may be case-sensitive - i.e. be able to differentiate based on case - the OS itself may well be case insensitive, hence OS X and XP/Vista apparently being case insensitive despite their file systems being sensitive (if that information is accurate).
Also it's quite probable that, given that Windows will ditch backwards compatibility, Vienna (or whatever the next Windows will be called) will also feature a case sensitive FS since it's the logical thing to do.
Disregarding exactly what makes it 'logical', keep in mind that 'backwards compatible' doesn't necessarily just entail software - Microsoft would have a hard time changing such a low-level features without causing issues with users, which is perhaps the most important point: I don't think you could reliably say that such a change is inevitable.
Windows users may not see this as a great game because I think Windows users tend to look more at the graphics and how mainstream the product is, so selling it in that market may not be too great. The whole concept of having a 2d side-scroller is pretty much considered to be "old" and people don't like "old" stuff.
Blanket statements, much? I think you're describing mainstream gamers, there, not Windows gamers.
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I don't think OSX will start using a case sensitive file system. I'm working alongside Mac devs from Ambrosia, and they haven't mentioned that ever changing. I haven't seen it mentioned in porting docs. So I figure it'll be the same from now on, since it seems Apple would destroy a lot of software if they made things case sensitive. Mac dev has gone fairly smoothly. The game is also running on linux in rough form, after many many annoying and time-eating changes to the engine. I assume you've seen the video already.
In terms of releases, we're going to finish the Windows version first, then Mac, and leave Linux for last, as it'll likely take extra rounds of testing.
I know that Linux and the user's file system are two separate things, but since the majority of Linux users use the case sensitive file system, I don't see why its a big deal to assume that by porting to Linux you're going to have to deal with case sensitivity. In practice, they go hand in hand more often than the other OSes.
Its my opinion that case sensitivity is stupid. You don't have to agree with me, but I don't think its likely that you'll change my mind about it being stupid either. ;)
Also, it seems like since there are many times more games available on Windows, and that game development is generally more easy to get into on Windows, that Windows gamers would be more exposed to everything, including a lot of indie games and freeware.
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The proper term for both the default HFS+ and NTFS is "case-insensitive but case-preserving"--that is, if you save "file" and "FILE" they will both appear as such, but cannot exist in the same folder. Contrast that with e2fs, where they can both exist, or FAT, where all filenames are converted to uppercase.
You may have gotten your information about HFS+ being case-sensitive due to a more recent innovation, HFSX. HFSX gives you the option to make your filesystem case-sensitive, but it's a well-known fact that doing so can cause things to break, so it's recommended against.
As for whether or not case-sensitivity is good, I would claim that bundling a file "Data" with an app, but hard-coding the name "data" for it, is broken, and case-insensitivity is simply tolerant of the brokenness. For many users, that sort of tolerance is a good thing, but it's also good to have a decent user-base that will get burned by it, as an incentive to fix it.
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... it's also good to have a decent user-base that will get burned by it, as an incentive to fix it.
See, I can only see something as 'broken' if it actually causes or has the potential to cause problems in the application for which it was intended, or otherwise it's just creating arbitrary requirements. That is, having a userbase or scenario for which it is broken isn't an incentive to fix it, it's the only reason it should ever need to be fixed.
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Sorry, maybe "broken" is too strong a word. Perhaps just "a mistake." Point is, if I name the file "Data" and start scanning for references, I'm probably going to miss occurrences of "data" (the reverse might not be true). It's an arbitrary requirement, but like many others when designing a complex system, it's a good one.
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OS X already has the ability to be a case sensitive filesystem. When you initially format your drive it's in as one of the filesystem options. You can check this out in Disk Utility if you don't believe me. As for how this would effect developers and their programs.... I have no idea.
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Yeah, it may have the ability. But nobody uses it. (as far as I know)
Hence: the difference!
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wow, this old hairy monster thread :O
Personally, being quite an anal person, I'd probably have made sure that my stuff worked case-sensitively, or I'd have actually sat down and thought of a scheme for naming files (probably "do everything in lowercase and hope you can still understand it" ). But I can quite understand why it would be ten times easier not to have to worry about what is really a trivial thing, especially as you were not really planning on a Linux port from the beginning. I'm still very pleased and impressed that you've managed so much progress so quickly; keep it up! :D
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Well, I have case-sensitive HFSX on one of my computers--of course, I mainly use that computer for Unix-y thingies, and I keep a case-insensitive partition around just in case :) (and by "just in case" I mean "in case of Starcraft")
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Just a quick question :D
For those of us who absolutely can't wait for the game to get finished (*cough* everyone here *cough*) and buy the Windows version as soon as it's available, will we have a license to use the Linux version if and when it arrives? In other words, if I buy the Windows version for, oh, I dunno, 20 bucks, will I have to pay another $20 for the Linux version?
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I'm not sure yet.
The problem is that if a lot of people who want the Linux version also don't mind playing the Windows version, buy that one first and expect the Linux version for free... there won't be much incentive for us to finish a Linux version! :)
Right now I want to focus on getting the first version (Windows) done right, and worry about the ports after... so probably won't have a solid answer until later. But the odds of us giving away ports for "free" are pretty low, seeing how much time is going to have to be invested in them in porting and testing and compatibility.
(and there absolutely 0% chance of the Mac version being offered at any other rate than what Ambrosia sets; they're the publisher!)
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Alrighty, well I look forward to any and all versions, separate pay or not ;D ! Keep up the awesome work!
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(and there absolutely 0% chance of the Mac version being offered at any other rate than what Ambrosia sets; they're the publisher!)
And from my experience, that means Aquaria will most likely be 30$. (Ambrosia's most expensive game was 30$, cheapest was 20$ I think.)
Due to how awesome/complete/replayable it is. (Not to mention an editor, multiable ports, ect)
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I'm sure Nintendo would love to have you port it to their "Wii Ware". Once they start that up you should certainly look into it. I'd buy it for sure. (On top of a PC version [no really! for my little brother ;) ])
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I;d consider buying a linux version. I don't run OSX or WIndows so that would be my only option.
I would however expect a native exutable. It should work with Wine would not be a sufficent guarantee for me that I can run the game.
PS I use Ubuntu as well.
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I;d consider buying a linux version. I don't run OSX or WIndows so that would be my only option.
I would however expect a native exutable. It should work with Wine would not be a sufficent guarantee for me that I can run the game.
PS I use Ubuntu as well.
Dude, did you miss the native vid (http://youtube.com/watch?v=iTRJVhrvwLg)? :)
Anyways, the potential is there for a Linux release. The game runs, but to make a final version for Linux would require separate testing. We probably won't be able to look into that until the PC and Mac versions are released.
That said, someone at Ambrosia actually has a case sensitive OSX setup for testing! So maybe we'll be ahead entering Linux testing after all...
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Man, I have to say the delay that you're going to have for the Linux version is the most depressing thing ever. I absolutely HATE rebooting my computer into Windows to play games. It just depends what I hate more: waiting for a linux version to be released or using Windows until it comes out for Linux and paying for it twice. It's rather sad really.
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Actually, it's fairly easy to set up a case-sensitive area for testing on a Mac, even if you don't use it for your main partition. The way to do this is to create a case-sensitive disk image with Disk Utility (/Applications/Utilities/Disk Utility.app) and stick the app on it (the same thing is done in the reverse situation to allow StarCraft to work).
I don't anticipate this to be particularly useful information, but if you wanted to try it out on your own Mac, the option is there.
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re: luciferin
I feel your pain.
Unfortunately, there's not much we can do to alleviate the situation. I could spend time on the Linux version now, but that would delay all the versions and ultimately be a bad move for the company. I'd rather get the game out sooner than later, and Windows users have been waiting for what feels like forever.
I did spend the time to do the case sensitive stuff and get the game up and running on Ubuntu, which probably knocked us back a week from where we would have been otherwise.
But I mean... is rebooting that much of a big issue? Its not ideal, but still. Its less work than having to port a game to a new platform.
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I'm already happy that you are putting effort in porting the game to OS X and Linux :)
The game runs, but to make a final version for Linux would require separate testing.
If you need someone to bugtest/debug the linux version, let me know. I know some guys who'll want to do it for free.
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But I mean... is rebooting that much of a big issue? Its not ideal, but still. Its less work than having to port a game to a new platform.
Haha, yeah, you've got an excellent point there, Alec. I at least wont be losing money by waiting a bit longer for the release. Or if I can't wait until then, I'll just reboot. Aquaria looks like it's going to be worth it.
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I'd certainly beta test it for free (although it would be on a PowerPC Mac dualbooting Kubuntu, which I'm not quite sure is what you'd be looking for). Anyway, keep up the good work, and make sure to get a version out there.
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Alec most likely knows that anyone off the internet will happily test it for free. Just because, it'd be free....
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... and in conclusion - yea, conclusion. please stop bothering the devs until game is released. :P - , I'd like to thank Alec (and Derek) for bothering to make a linux port. Something that took great effort and will have relatively little financial gain (hope I'd be proves wrong), but they did it anyways, 'cos they're AWESOME! :D
Hope this thread shifts to console ports and cool stuff like that once the game is released. It wasn't intended to be just about the linux port really. ;)
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To the case-sensitive part:
http://icculus.org/physfs/ << how about that?
An abstract FileSystem could help. I thin all id Games do it in the same way (however, i'm quiet shure, thate they don't use PhysicsFS - just an example) - everything is stored in a .pak (a renamed .zip) file...
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I saw the youtube video of that game (awesome atmosphere & music btw) some months ago on a website and so i decided now to have a look at the development state :)
Thought of playing it with the compatibility layer, but as i see there are plans for a native linux version?
Great :)
The FAQ says something different. Is it up to date?
It really looks fantastic. I couldn't imagine playing a 2d-game again, before i saw Aquaria.
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Hey! Welcome to the forums. :)
i see there are plans for a native linux version?
Great :)
The FAQ says something different. Is it up to date?
Not sure when the Linux version would happen. Right now our top priority is finishing the first/Windows version. The Mac version will probably come next.
One of the main problems is that I don't have a dedicated Linux machine yet.
I thought System76's Linux laptops (http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=51) looked pretty sexy, but they're also a bit pricey.
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Just give us a donate button... :D ;)
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Considered development for the iphone? I heard its got a multi-touch screen and one of those fancy ARM processors >.>
please? ^_^;
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I'm pretty sure that if that ever happens, it's going to be a LONG time.
They haven't even finished porting to Mac and Linux dude.
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I want to see a Wii version. :)
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Are there any updates on the status of the Linux port?
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Are there any updates on the status of the Linux port?
Not yet. I'll look into it once the Mac version and the new Windows patch are out.
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Thanks Alec
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yes totally, this game so screams wiiware that just came out. Please put it there!
I mean you guys are independant developers :P
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yes totally, this game so screams wiiware that just came out. Please put it there!
I mean you guys are independant developers :P
Actually Aquaria is far too big for that. But who knows? Maybe Alec and Derek find out another way to get Aquaria on the Wii. :)
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hmm... the smell of a linux port? me want.
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hmm... the smell of a linux port? me want.
It's been discussed in other threads, if you wanted to search for "Linux". It's been established that Aquaria runs great on wine and Alec has no plans to do a Linux port.