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Offline sakuramboo

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Re: Supported Platforms
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2007, 12:53:51 am »
I just signed up to tell you that the Linux gaming market isnt as small as you think. All of the numbers released about how many people run linux are wrong because they all make the assumption that you can only run one OS (as if heterogenous doesnt exist in the english language). the truth is that the huge majorty of people who run linux also run windows because of the small select number of programs that they need for work (and in some cases, pleasure).

there is one thing you should remember and that is this, the linux community looks after those who support as many platforms as they can. this is why companies like Id and Epic are so well known. the entire Doom series wouldnt be as big today as it is if it wasnt for John Carmack open sourcing the doom 1 engine. Unreal Tournament wouldnt be where it is today if Epic didnt hire Ryan Gordon to make linux and mac ports of the unreal engine, clients and servers. if they only catered to windows, Valve would have dominated the FPS market. now, valve is the one who is trying to catch up to them.

as mentioned before, OpenAL is a fine choice for delivering audio and is used in all linux and mac port projects (same with SDL with OpenGL).

someone posted a few links to discussion about this topic and i feel that i should also include a few to help back up my feeling about this.

http://www.linux-gamers.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2710&forum=8
http://www.linux-gamers.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2982&forum=8

if you were to make a linux port, i would support you 100% in your ventures.

Offline Alec

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Re: Supported Platforms
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2007, 01:10:48 am »
I tried working with OpenAL, it would take a lot of work to get it to do what Bass does for us. Like at least a month of work if it even ended up working as well? When I was messing with it, and integrating it with Ogg Vorbis, and trying to get to stream music on a separate thread, it all seemed very complex and flaky.

I'm not sure I want to take the time out to do that, since I'm the only programmer.

Offline Alec

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Re: Supported Platforms
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2007, 01:16:33 am »
there is one thing you should remember and that is this, the linux community looks after those who support as many platforms as they can.

...

if you were to make a linux port, i would support you 100% in your ventures.

That kind of group mentality, that seems to be based on supporting people just because of what platform they develop for, and not necessarily due to quality - scares me more than it reassures me.

I do think it would be a nice gesture to make a Linux port, and I think Linux as a whole is a worthy endeavor... but.

Again my points are:

1) I still don't see a clear, easy way to port the audio

2) If its going to take a lot of work to port, I'm not yet convinced that there will be significant financial or good-will return on that investment. The time spent working on that would be better and more interestingly spent on new games or ports.

But yeah, keep it up. :)

I'm interested to hear more about the Linux gaming world. And if these problems could be solved, it would make a port a lot more likely.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2007, 01:29:23 am by Alec »

Offline qhartman

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Re: Supported Platforms
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2007, 01:50:05 am »
The market just doubled!!

Count me in that Linux market as well. I love side-scrolling adventure style games, and Aquaria looks to be one I would be proud to add to my collection. The advice of looking into Wine is a good one, but the "real" Linux fanboys will complain about it not being native. I'd prefer native myself, but if it works 100% correctly in Wine, that would certainly be good enough for me. You may also want to look at Transgaming for your port stuff, both to Linux and OSX. They have products to help Windows games run on both platforms, but not without repercussions.

I've many years of Linux gaming experience and in skimming the other messages in this thread it sounds like you might need some help getting off the ground with it. Feel free to email me directly if you need any support. Since you are an admin, you ought to be able to get my address out of my profile, but I'll be watching this thread as well.

I'm excited at the prospect of another (seemingly!) quality title coming to Linux.

Offline wesley

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Re: Supported Platforms
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2007, 03:51:09 am »
I would buy the game if it was a native linux version.
But: I will not pay for a version that runs in wine.

I do have an idea of what could be wrong with your Wine audio though. Have you tried to only enable ALSA audio output (and messing around with the audio emulation settings) in the "winecfg" application? It might give you sound.

But even if sound works in Wine, I still won't buy it to run it in Wine.
No matter how good Wine can run some games, it's never as good as a native game.

I don't have much experience with game development, but I have done some small stuff with OpenAL in the past.

I have an idea. Why not (abstract if needed and) open source just the audio code so a linux developer can create a modified audio class that uses OpenAL (or a similar technology). Could be a viable solution if 1. you don't mind to open source your audio class and if 2. your code is modular enough to abstract only the essential audio code and if 3. you put comments in your audio code and/or create a function reference

You have to carefully choose a license for the open sourced audio code though. I think a BSD-style license would be a good choice, as it doesn't limit you from doing what you want with the code (like putting it back into your commercial game).

What do you think? I would really like to see this game working on linux (and potentially other alternative OS'es). You use platform-independent libraries (SDL, OpenGL) for the rest of the code, so please find a solution for the audio too :)

I'm very interested in your reply.
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Offline sakuramboo

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Re: Supported Platforms
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2007, 04:15:21 am »
That kind of group mentality, that seems to be based on supporting people just because of what platform they develop for, and not necessarily due to quality - scares me more than it reassures me.

I do think it would be a nice gesture to make a Linux port, and I think Linux as a whole is a worthy endeavor... but.
there is nothing to be scared about. in fact, that is actually something you should embrace.

currently, its more like a cult-classic film. those that actually know about it, love it and will promote it on their own free will.

please take no offense to this, but i see way too many indie projects just go no where because of their failure to cater to alternate niches (a perfect example is the game Crimsonland, a wonderful game, but for windows only and because of that, they arent selling as many copies as they had hoped). it is really hard for indie games to make it big unless they get a big name publishing house to deliver the game. then, there are the indie games which make it big, but big with the linux market because they develop for cross-platforms. take, for example, BZFlag and Battle for Wesnoth. two games which are completely cross-platform, of course, there are more windows players than there are linux players, but without the linux community to back that game, the number of players would not be enough to warrent them to continue development. there are two ways to look at application development. you can either cater to windows users and ship as soon as possible or cater to everybody and take an extra few months to get everything working.

in the end, its your call. im just giving you my two cents which is based off personal experiences within the linux and FOSS community.

Offline anti-trend

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Re: Supported Platforms
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2007, 06:31:59 am »
I'd prefer native myself, but if it works 100% correctly in Wine, that would certainly be good enough for me.
Yes indeed. I have no Windows systems, nor will I ever again if I can help it. I also buy native games without a second thought, WINE-supported not so much. If you need help porting, you can always hit up a porting house like Icculus, LGP, etc. There are even talks about community-backed ports of commercial games; such a thing would be fairly new ground, but I don't think it's a bad concept. There are also other small shops out there who have successfully ported Linux games and built a loyal fanbase, such as Wolfire and S2Games. David of Wolfire first posted an "Ask Slashdot" segment which attracted interest and potential porters for his project early on: http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/03/1614214   Such a thing might not be a bad idea if you're considering it.

P.S. - For what it's worth, I've purchased games from every one of the vendors I linked.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2007, 06:35:30 am by anti-trend »

Offline Alec

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Re: Supported Platforms
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2007, 07:56:54 am »
Yeah, I still don't see the Linux community making a big impact on our "success". I think there'll be a big enough PC and Mac audience. I don't think the Linux audience would make up a large chunk of that.

Battle of Wesnoth is also freeware. It makes a lot more sense to release freeware games on all platforms. But if you think about the Linux community, they don't want to pay for their OS or much of the software that they use. Why are they going to want to pay for games?

Ultimately, there's no way we'd delay the PC + Mac version just so we could release a Linux version at the same time.

Offline KingAl

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Re: Supported Platforms
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2007, 08:13:15 am »
Presumably it's popular enough to be economically viable for other companies. Linux definitely has a very small market share (~ 1%). I'd think, however, that the Linux market is by its very nature likely to have a higher ratio of gamers than other platforms - the relative number of Linux and PC/Mac users within your target market may compare more favourably than a strict user base comparison. They're also probably more likely to support small studios - because part of the appeal of Linux is sending the major corporations a big "up-yours". But then, I'm no market analyst - you'd really need the figures to back up such a move.

In the end, it's always a trade off. If you could churn out a Linux port with relatively little stress, then it's practically a free lunch - but if that time could be better spent elsewhere...

Offline Omni

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Re: Supported Platforms
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2007, 08:29:52 am »
i dont think there is enough linux out there to even bother wasting time with it. 

Offline wesley

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Re: Supported Platforms
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2007, 08:38:13 am »
Yeah, I still don't see the Linux community making a big impact on our "success". I think there'll be a big enough PC and Mac audience. I don't think the Linux audience would make up a large chunk of that.
You are right. It won't make a big impact on your success. It will, however, make a big impact on the Linux users, and that's a shame, because I'm a one of th
« Last Edit: July 07, 2007, 08:40:25 am by wesley »
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Offline fixxer.linux

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Re: Supported Platforms
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2007, 09:37:29 am »
Yeah, I still don't see the Linux community making a big impact on our "success". I think there'll be a big enough PC and Mac audience. I don't think the Linux audience would make up a large chunk of that.

Battle of Wesnoth is also freeware. It makes a lot more sense to release freeware games on all platforms. But if you think about the Linux community, they don't want to pay for their OS or much of the software that they use. Why are they going to want to pay for games?

Ultimately, there's no way we'd delay the PC + Mac version just so we could release a Linux version at the same time.


Let me introduce myself : I'm an old gamer of 31 summers. I'm one of those guys who played on Atari VCS 2600 when I was 4 !
I'm using linux for 6 years now, as full replacement for Windows. I'm not a developper, i'm an accounting manager and I have worked 6 years as IT project leader, so I have to be considered as a final user (or power-user if you wish, but no developer).

I've seen the video of your game, it's awesome. I'm VERY glad that some people are using nowadays technologies to write games that I have played 15 years ago (remember Xenon2 on atari 520 ST/SE, "Shadow of the Beast", Amiga 500/Atari ST, or, more recently (10 years ?), "Shadows of Darkness" ??).
I thought I could never play again to quality 2D games, as 3D games are now the rules when writing the Third chapter of 2 previous versions of a game that was engineered for 2D action (they 3D'd games like Mario !?! WTF !)

I was impressed by the art-work of your game. I think, that, like me, a lot of "old-gamers" would be pleased to buy that game for their child (mine will come soon on next january !! :D ) as those kind of games are not violent and are easy to handle for a child.

As nostalgia, I could even buy your game for playing it myself, but I don't think that you will hit big markets shares with that game. Why ? Simply because hard-core games wants 3D, and, MOST OF ALL, multi-players capabilities.
If you don't have that, you are out of the biggest part of the game market. Perhaps not with a Nintendo DS version, but with only a desktop computer version, you are out.

I don't mean you won't sell anything, I just say you are like Linux users, you are on a very limited part of the market (on which, I've to admit, you don't have any serious competitor, as big studios prefer developing the next blockbuster "UT3-QuakeWars gets trouble in Super-Commander of Warcraft"...).

But you are proposing a high quality game, with no competition as most players are now used to 3D games, not 2D.
Let's talk again about past things, to understand little more the nowadays market.
I used to play in 1993 at a game which was fairly "simple", was made "shareware" so you could play a single level without paying and getting more if you payed only a few bucks.
This game was a simple Pinball (I don't remember the name of the game yet), made by a little development studio named "Epic Games". They were probably 2 to write that game.
Next years, they issued a battle game, named "One Must Fall", which was a "shareware copy" of the blockbuster "Street Fighter".
They have made all their game release as sharewares. I think we can say that all the people all over the world to use shareware were "a community" which was rather out of the "big game market". I also think that today, those sharewares users have become Linux users, as shareware is not as far as Open-Source/Linux spirit.
I'm talking about the same EPIC of today, the one that is developing Unreal Tournament 3 (and the one that has said that a linux version will be made available).
Another little game development studio was hitting the shareware community in 1993 with a shareware called "Doom". You know what happened next.
Well, ID got a success because they made a game completely different, a breaking innovation. But they started also with "simple" 2D games (Commander Keen, another Shareware).

So, please, don't tell the community won't help you in your success.

But, I can understand, that you can have difficulties to port your game to Linux.
So, let me continue.
As I said earlier, your game is "out of the market" because you don't have big 3D and no multi-player mode.
For that, I think that the code of your game is rather simple (no offense in that, I wouldn't be able to even write a single line of a game program). For that, I think that if you should have difficulties in coding, you simply open-source your code, as no-one will care about stolen your code to write another game like the one you are preparing.
Your added value lies in the art-work, not in the code. So, don't lose time coding something that others can do for you, and open-source your project.
With that open, Linux community will carry the port for you, help you fixing the last bugs that you should have on Mac/OS and Windows versions, and, mostly, the impact of open-sourcing, will that you'll be able to issue your game earlier than planned or issue a game with better quality as most extensively tested over much more users. Why not release a beta to do that ?
Open-sourcing your code don't mean "open sourcing the entire game", as you must keep a copyright on all the art-work. Open-source allows you also to sell your game.

Because, I think that linux users are ready to pay for what they use, since they want more linux support in that windows world. I also think that linux users are rather old like me than young, have jobs and understand that developing a game is long and costing task, and that we must pay for that.
I think linux users are "mature", know that piracy is theft and are waiting the opportunities to show to any game studio that a "still small but growing" market is waiting.
And, as mature people, they also can understand that the linux client could be issued later than the Windows client, as Windows is 80% of the market and that we understand you want to hit first the market with the biggest OS.
For my case, I buy all the games I've played on Linux (UT2004, Quake3 and Quake4, Doom3), and I buy those games on "Tuxgames.com" as I want to increase the sales statistics for Linux ports. I could have found that games cheaper in stores, or even cheaper on X-mule...

Finally, I think you have more to win than to lose at supporting the linux community. Epic and ID won't betray what I've said I think.

I hope that will make change your mind.

Cheers.

Luc VERNEREY, France.
(Sorry for my English)

Offline Alec

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Re: Supported Platforms
« Reply #42 on: July 07, 2007, 09:54:58 am »
But most real Linux users pay for games. Please get that image of Linux users being cheap bastards out of your thick skull! >:(

you are on a very limited part of the market
..
As I said earlier, your game is "out of the market" because you don't have big 3D and no multi-player mode.
..
you simply open-source your code
..
I think linux users are "mature", know that piracy is theft and are waiting the opportunities to show to any game studio that a "still small but growing" market is waiting.

You people are basically a band of thugs that live in a fantasy world.

The only reason you're here is to try to convince me to port the game to Linux to support your own vision of what you think Linux should be. It has nothing to do with the game itself. And its done without any consideration or concern for us, the developers. And yeah, there's only two of us.

If you were supporters of the game, you wouldn't be calling me an idiot and trying to peer pressure me into porting it.

The source will not be opened. That makes no sense at all.

The argument that we're not a mainstream game? Yeah, we fucking know that. We're indies. You think we need to be told that? You think we don't understand that? And you're somehow proposing that the non-existent Linux "game market" will radically expand our market? That is ludicrous.

I think we have the potential to sell well. I think there are people who are generally interested in the GAME ITSELF. Not just some cause. I think we've got a lot of good press and I'm looking forward to seeing how well we do with PC and Mac.

Smarten up, or I'm going to start banning people. This is just silly.

All I asked for was solutions to my problems of porting. Actual solutions like, "here is this easy to use audio engine". "Okay, I'll use it, thanks."

Not bullshit hippie/wishful thinking about an alternate universe where a small indie company giving away their only real assets, somehow means they won't be ripped off. Where unicorns and humans live side by side.

Fuck.

I was actually getting interested about doing a Linux port, and you guys ruined it.

Offline Piko

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Re: Supported Platforms
« Reply #43 on: July 07, 2007, 10:01:02 am »
I'd love to see your game on Linux.

I'm normally much more willing to buy a game if it's got a Linux port. About 100% more willing  ;)

Small title games tend to get a lot more attention by the Linux Game community, then the Windows. The Linux game community is small, but is starving for games, and with small titles it's best to cover as many potential customers as you can. The size of the "Linux Gamers" community isn't well know, but last I check the game RTCW:Enemy Territories was reporting a total of 12,000+ Linux clients playing, about a month ago. More then the number of Windows clients, although it is an older game, and the Windows users have most likely moved to other games, or aren't using XQF. The Linux users like my self have also moved on as well, to games like Quake 4, Doom 3, Defcon, and oddly enough World of Warcraft (using Wine), so I would assume that this number is far less then the actual number. I personally haven't player RTCW:ET in about three years, I'm waiting for Quake Wars.

Also many Linux Gamers are willing to buy games ported to Linux, more then ones that use Wine layered on top. It's more or less the idea of helping a weak area in the Linux community, and that's high quality games that natively run on Linux. Many are willing to over looked the closed source, just to play a good game.

As for the complexity of porting, it matters what was originally used to make the game, and how neat, and tidy your code is. Moving from DirectX to OpenGL can be a trick but it's not impossible. Linux is full of libraries for games like SDL, and OpenAL. If you make a Linux port, the Mac OS X port wouldn't take very long, considering the fact that almost all the most popular libraries for making games, are also available for Mac OS X.

I don't really care about the open sourcing of games, because they are so fleeting.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2007, 10:12:56 am by Piko »

Offline Alec

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Re: Supported Platforms
« Reply #44 on: July 07, 2007, 10:19:05 am »
Alright, now that I've got that rant out of my system....

The game runs on:

OpenGL, SDL, LUA and.. BASS

The game already runs on MacOSX. It runs great. The port was easy.

The problem is Bass, while being lovely and cross PC/Mac, is not cross-linux.

If there is another shiny, and easy to use audio library for Linux that is affordable, then I'd be more willing to consider a port.

I like Linux, I like some of the principles behind it. I'd love to port the game to support a small, but ideally growing gaming community, if the port can be straightforward and worth the effort.

HOWEVER

I am not interested in porting it to appease people who try to use intimidation to enforce their views on others.