Supported Platforms

[xander]

While I love the fact that you are trying to make modding as easy as you are, I think that people can figure out case sensitivity.  I mean, Introversion's games run on Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux, and both Darwinia and Defcon have active modding communities.  They have all figured out how to deal with case sensitivity.  It really isn't that much of a big deal, in my not so humble opinion.

xander

[Alec]

The problem comes when one creates a Mod for Windows or Mac, and then someone else tries to play it on Linux.

They wouldn't be assured to be compatible. Someone would have to test the Mods on Linux and ensure the filenames are correct.

[kawsper]

Make a script that searches for the files and find their real path that Linux can see, or simply make everything in small letters and let the game parse the filenames and convert them.

That could be a solution.

[xander]

The problem comes when one creates a Mod for Windows or Mac, and then someone else tries to play it on Linux.

They wouldn't be assured to be compatible. Someone would have to test the Mods on Linux and ensure the filenames are correct.

No, they wouldn't.  But if someone tried it, they would get a complaint from some Linux-y person, and some other forum member would probably tell them to check their cases.  I don't see why the onus has to be on you, the developer, to prevent users from doing silly things.  Put a note in the editor that says that filenames are case sensitive under Linux, and that your mod will be incompatible with Linux if you depend upon case insensitivity.  And remember, you can't make anything idiot-proof -- the second you come close, someone builds a better idiot.

xander

[KingAl]

In my experience, a mod maker who isn't dedicated enough to ensure Linux compatibility, probably also isn't dedicated enough to make a worthwhile mod It's nice to see you're so concerned for the end user, but I really don't think this is the issue to pin a decision on.

[Alec]

kawsper: addressed earlier in the thread

Its another unnecessary annoyance on a growing stack of crap.

And yeah, its not user friendly. I want to do as much as I can to make the experience user friendly, while still leaving it open for people. Linux just completely messes with that, and there's nothing reasonable I can do to fix it.

The "it will never be perfect" argument is all well and good, but the Windows and Mac versions are already more user-friendly just by the fact that they run on more friendly OSes and don't have to deal with this problem. So we're just supposed to expect the Linux version to be not as good? I don't think I can go into something like that with that attitude, it has to work at least as well, otherwise what's the point.

[sakuramboo]

but, C++ in nature is case sensitive. any developer or modder would understand this and just follow the same paradigm.

and to say that windows and OSX are case insensitive is not entirely true. when it comes to passwords, it is very case sensitive (windows got around that with their LM Hashing algorythm by converting everything to upper case). all OS's are natively case sensitive, its just that with windows and OSX it will convert everything to upper case (i believe OSX is lower case, but, i could be wrong).

[shinygerbil]

Hmm, I'm really split down the middle on this.

On the one hand, I'm a Linux user, and I certainly wouldn't mind dealing with these small inconsistencies (even if it meant that I had to edit every mod I downloaded before playing it), so I think that, soundlib problems aside, I would be happy with that the way it is.

One the other (and very much bigger) hand, this is your baby. You've hit the big-time with this (and deservedly so), and it's a labour of love for you. You're very proud of it. You don't want to see it compromised in any way whatsoever; you don't want to see people complain, which they inevitably would, if there were these kind of 'issues'.

While it's obviously not my business in the slightest, I'd advise leaving off a Linux port for a while.  Who knows, maybe you could hire someone to take care of it once the cashflow is going your way, although I doubt that's an ideal solution! But at the moment at least, it does seem like too much trouble, especially as you must be going through some pretty rough testing/final stages right now.

@sakuramboo: Yes, but modding this game won't require C++. For simple mods, I'm guessing Photoshop(/MS Paint) skills and basic use of the ingame editor; for more advanced mods, all of the above plus a bit of high-level scripting.

On the subject of case sensitivity: from my

[Alec]

Erm, I've tried to explain it over and over.

It doesn't matter if you convert everything to one case in the code, its the files that users can create themselves that will matter.


i.e.
they will try to load "asdf" in a user made script
but they've called it "Asdf" in the filesystem

A modder working on Windows or OSx won't have a problem, their mod will run perfectly fine. But when someone tries to play it on Linux, there will be a bitch fest. And "someone" will have to test the mod entirely to ensure every file is named correctly in the user made scripts and in the file system.

It boils down to forcing modders to name all their files a certain way, which I think is silly, since its not a requirement in the other two, more popular OSes. Its like inconveniencing the majority to please the minority.

[sakuramboo]

do the quake 2 modders see it as an inconvenience? do the ut2k4 modders see it as an inconvenience? how about the doom modders? of course not, because they all understand that modding and coding require case sensitivity.

please correct me if im wrong here (and i really do hope i am), but it sounds like to me you are looking for any and every excuse not to do a linux port, almost like you have already made up your mind and just want to convince everyone else that its not worth it. you are making case sensitivety out to be a much bigger problem than it really is. the whole modding community understands case sensitivity and also understands about proper naming structures. you call it an inconvenience while everyone else calls it proper naming schemes.

if the sound porting is too problematic for you, have you thought about getting outside help? the guys at icculus are always looking for freelance work, of course, at a small fee, but its always an option.

[wesley]

A modder working on Windows or OSx won't have a problem, their mod will run perfectly fine. But when someone tries to play it on Linux, there will be a bitch fest. And "someone" will have to test the mod entirely to ensure every file is named correctly in the user made scripts and in the file system.

It boils down to forcing modders to name all their files a certain way, which I think is silly, since its not a requirement in the other two, more popular OSes. Its like inconveniencing the majority to please the minority.

To be 100% precise: some OS X installations also use a case sensitive filesystem (you can choose that when creating the filesystem)! So OS X will have the same problem for some users.

On the other hand, SOME linux users will be able to run your game natively on their filesystem, as the XFS filesystem can be created in a case insensitive form. Also, of course ntfs-3g (linux ntfs driver) doesn't have the problem.

But, most linux users run an ext3 filesystem or any other filesystem with case sensitivity on their root (it's not really possible to have a case insensitive filesystem there, because a lot of stuff relies on case insensitivity, just like in Windows some stuff relies on case sensitivity)

Anyway. Even if you decide not to support linux for this game, keep everything you have learned in your head for your next game. Make it a rule to always watch your casing. And try to use powerful cross-platform libraries as much as you can. Of course, SDL and OpenGL are a good start

[As a side note: ] linux on the desktop has about 3% market share, while OS X has almost 6% market share. These statistics were provided by Hitslink. Statistics by w3schools say that linux has about 3,5% market share on the desktop and OS X almost 4%. I think it's safe to say that they both are unpopular when compared to windows, but if you compare linux to OS X, then linux has a pretty good user base (even though OS X obviously is a bit more popular in both statistics).

[KingAl]

First things first, I'm not a Linux user so I don't have a vested interest - I'm not trying to convince you for my own sake. I honestly don't think this is as big an issue as it may appear from your end.

A modder working on Windows or OSx won't have a problem, their mod will run perfectly fine. But when someone tries to play it on Linux, there will be a bitch fest. And "someone" will have to test the mod entirely to ensure every file is named correctly in the user made scripts and in the file system.

Don't underestimate the community. Not only do I think that most good mod makers will ensure case doesn't become an issue, but even if they didn't there are people out there willing to create a Linux compatible version.

It boils down to forcing modders to name all their files a certain way, which I think is silly, since its not a requirement in the other two, more popular OSes. Its like inconveniencing the majority to please the minority.

If you felt it was necessary, to be honest I doubt free file naming is a liberty that anyone is going to dearly miss. The greatest inconvenience I can see with respect to this is if you need to alter your own scripts etc. to ensure Linux compatibility. It's in modders' interests to ensure compatibility - they want their work to get to as large an audience as possible.

 I understand the compulsion to make things as good as possible, but this isn't a case of you having to settle for the imperfect or a compromise - whether people choose to ensure Linux compatibility is, in the end, entirely out of your hands. Bar some elaborate identification system, if it works then it is already as perfect as you can make it.
I don't know what else to say in this respect.

[Alec]

*sigh*

Creating/naming files is part of the moding process. People will be creating new files through the OS. There's no way to control how people names the files at that stage.

I don't know why I keep having to explain this.

In any case, I think the stack of annoying problems leading to enormous amounts of work outweighs the audience. Which quite frankly, I can't say I'm inspired by.

I'm not really interested in adopting arcane practices to support a small and angry audience.

So, I guess all hope of a Linux port, or any future port of any of any future games to Linux dies here.

[KingAl]

I think what the actual issue is regarding casing was understood by most - I was just disputing that the onus is on you to ensure the compatibility of mods, when ultimately it's the fault of the mod maker if Linux compatibility isn't retained: Nothing is ever foolproof. You can't control them, though you can make recommendations to them if they want the widest distribution. And I can assure you, any good mod maker will keep this in mind.

In the end if the size of the audience isn't worth the effort, then naturally there's no reason to make a conversion. It just seems as if your stressing too much on issues that are always going to be there. I can certainly empathise with you re the Linux lynch squad, though I doubt the rest of the Linux userbase is quite that bad.

Again, I don't use Linux - I couldn't care less for my own sake. I undoubtedly don't have the full picture here, and so my impression of your situation is almost certainly oversimplified - but it just doesn't make sense to me to write off a potential source of income because of an issue like case sensitivity. But, whatever, in the end it's your prerogative.

[Alec]

Well no, that's not the only issues, as mentioned.

Issues:

1) Small and Angry Audience.

2) Case sensitivity annoyances, would require a lot of work and would end up with Linux users bitching at Windows users even more for not making their mods compatible. Windows users wouldn't care.

3) Audio library would require a recode / extra money / extra time and effort. EIther it would take a lot of time, or it would not support the audio as fully as the other two versions.

4) Some way to protect game files (we have ways on Win/OSX, but not Linux)

5) Support. (Have a fair idea of how to support Windows, Ambrosia will help us support Mac... Linux? No idea)

6) Another full testing cycle. (Ambrosia will help us test OSX. But for Linux we'd have to get beta testers, and they'd probably be 90% of our potential audience!)

Now is it worth taking time out to deal with all those issues instead of:

A) finishing the game

B) possibly porting / spinning off the game to consoles, which would have a large game-friendly audience

C) creating new games

Either A, B or C are far more interesting and valuable to us than dealing with picky issues that shouldn't even be coming up in this day and age to support a niche audience that I'm still not convinced would even be interested in buying the game, let alone playing it.

And the overriding reason?

I just don't care about Linux anymore. This thread has crushed any interest I had in working on a port.