Why I like this game, de-installed it, but then istalled it again **spoilers**)

[Eris]

See, that pisses me off even more. I know the game isn't perfect. I never pretended it was perfect. In fact now I hate it more than anything, except myself.

In fact the way you're treating me as if I'm an idiot who can't realize that his own game is worthless shit is really insulting.

You're joking right? You have to be kidding. Aquaria is awesome. If you aren't kidding, then you really should seek professional help and get on some kind of medication.

Oh, and I don't think Aquaria is too difficult. It's refreshing to play a game that doesn't treat me like an imbecile.

[Grawl]

I guess what I'm saying is making the game into step by step "explain everything" bullshit like every mainstream game that comes out, would drive me even further towards suicide.

i.e. Bioshock's PRESS F TO HEAL message that appears constantly. Why not just auto heal at that point? Why not just give me infinite health? Why not just make it a movie and I can just sit on my ass and watch it?

So ' what you are saying' is that it's bullshit to go through things step-by-step? Some points of interest here:

1 - What do you find mainstream? Since this is an indie game, every non-indie game would be. Yet BioShock isn't even as much mainstream as, for example, the Orange Box. BioShock is perhaps the underdog of the year.
2 - When is it 'step by step'? As far as I can remember --once again refering to your BioShock remark-- the actual game (as in - after the demo ended) didn't have too much of that. When you ger near certain items it'd appear on screen, but what's the harm in that?
3 - There is a difference between step-by-step (the Aquaria demo contains a walkthrough, which is step-by-step, just fyi) and a game that shows the controls and/or goals on-screen if you need them (Unreal used that, Half-Life used that, Gears of War used that, Morrowind used that etc. etc.) You can either skip (Morrowind) or ignore (the rest) that. It'd be step-by-step if you can't proceed any futher without first looking left, then looking right, zooming in, then out etc. As if it'd was a tutorial.
4 - Saying 'bullshit like every other mainstream game'  isn't going to do you any good as an indie developer.

My main point - it wouldn't hurt to not shoot everything with a shotgun this soon. Letting people speak may be a chance to --let's say-- improve things. But that's just me living in a country that allows freedom of speech.

[hanzo]

you know what guys... you convinced me!
I'll give it another try.
I guess that uninstalling it was a bit of an overreaction, too much stress lately, too much work, though that doesn't mean I have changed my mind on the things I had to complain about in the beginning.
I still think it's worth discussing about it (discussing, not accusing).
In the end, I'm dreaming of it by night... and that certainly means that the good things in it still overweight the bad ones... and probably by far...
There is one thing that made me think, in all this discussion. Actually, the fact that a lot of us had to consult this forum to get some clues on how to solve a problem, or kill a boss, created really some kind of second level of experience in the game... something I hadn't considered earlier... One one hand probably a game shouldn't rely too much on a support forum, on the other hand, the fact that this whole thing started, more or less, on a spontaneous basis, makes it very sympathetic to me.
And to end this mess, one thing has to be said. It's always easy to express one self in a stupid and wrong way and it's always easy to get misunderstood. Of course a title like "Why I like this game but de-installed it" is prone to be taken as "very negative". But believe me, I never wanted to say that Aquaria is a bad game. In fact I think, and I always thought, that it was a great game... maybe a bit difficult to understand (to understand not to play), maybe a bit difficult for me in this period of my life (but that's my problem), but still a great game. I just wanted to discuss some matters I found being an issue in the game, and apparently I wasn't the only one.

[hanzo]

and btw...

[Upthorn]

I guess what I'm saying is making the game into step by step "explain everything" bullshit like every mainstream game that comes out, would drive me even further towards suicide.

i.e. Bioshock's PRESS F TO HEAL message that appears constantly. Why not just auto heal at that point? Why not just give me infinite health? Why not just make it a movie and I can just sit on my ass and watch it?

So ' what you are saying' is that it's bullshit to go through things step-by-step? Some points of interest here:

Well, I think "step-by-step bullshit" is sort of the wrong term to use for what Alec is describing. I would call it "hold-the-player's-hand-and-feed-him-gameplay-with-the-spoon-so-he-never-has-to-think-for-himself bullshit"
And yes, that is bullshit. Aquaria has a walkthrough for the very introductory area, just so that players can get used to the mode of thought and puzzle solving that it takes to get through the game. And, for what it's worth, it does nudge you in the right direction when a goal comes round. Like right at the beginning, it tells you that Naija feels a strong urge to explore -- which is your prime directive throughout the game. Don't know what to do? Explore and you'll find the answer.
And when you find something important, it lets you know what to do with it, or how to work it. Almost a return to the days when all games had in the way of telling people how to play were instruction manuals. You read the manual to see what buttons did what things, and then you played the game to figure out what things to do at what times. Aquaria is kind of like that. And while it isn't totally perfect in every way ever concieved by man in which a video game could be perfect, the way it handles telling you what to do would be the absolute bottom on my check list of things to improve.

[legion]

Aquaria made me want to put my head through a wall several times (Sun Temple boss, I'm looking at YOU)...

But I like that in a game. I like being 'stuck' on a boss, or having an area be too hard to tackle without a good deal of skill and/or Tasty Cakes .

Good job, Alec, I think the difficulty is one of the best parts about the game. I beat it and felt accomplished afterwards, which hasn't happened to me in a long time.

Bioshock, for example, had a bloody TERRIBLE ending from a gameplay perspective. Serious, WTF.

[Joakim]

aquaria is great overall, some minor things could be fixed ofcourse... a few of the arguments here are good, others not soo good.

some say its too hard, that is bullshit. Too hard for what? completing the game in 3 hours, yes, so what.
Everything isnt supposed to be easy

[Xocrates]

some say its too hard, that is bullshit. Too hard for what? completing the game in 3 hours, yes, so what.
Everything isnt supposed to be easy

Thank you for taking a relative concept such as difficulty and making it an absolute. Now everything makes perfect sense.

[IceD]

Maybe we have to say this game isn't meant for everybody... If you like shooting and action more than using brain cells, well... I played this game whole lotta time and it was like a remedy to me. I mean - most of modern games are way to easy, and there's nothing more frustrating than the game telling you what to do in different situations. I want to play a game that gives a freedom of choice and moves, not a one which tells me what I should do or was supposed to do in each situation. We were teached how to play on games which were just to plain simple, and thats the problem. Aquaria is a difficult game, indeed. Now we can see what happens when a guy, who was playing those mainstream games for quite a bit of time gets his fingers on Aquaria.

This game wasn't meant to bring lots of $$$ to the developers, like the normal games. It was meant to be created for people like us, to bring us fun and challenge at the same time. The problem is most of mainstream game developers are afraid of making their games really hard and intuitive, because the title won't sell properly. People love easy things nowadays. But this can be a real problem when it comes to Aquaria, when you have to think how to kill for e.g. the sun temple boss because good ol' shooting isn't enough an the worm kills you in seconds...

I don't know what to say. It's not our fault and it's not Aquaria's. Maybe we should blame the mainstream developers for creating such easy games 

[hanzo]

Now we can see what happens when a guy, who was playing those mainstream games for quite a bit of time gets his fingers on Aquaria.

and who would that person be? If I may ask...

[IceD]

and who would that person be? If I may ask...

It's not You, Hanzo... I'm just saying in general.

[Grawl]

and who would that person be? If I may ask...

It's not You, Hanzo... I'm just saying in general.

Yet, it's no surprise that Aquaria is based on quite a few famous mainstream games (even if it was just slightly), and blends it all together;

Metroid, Morrowind/Oblivion - Non-linair (sort of, not as much as Aquaria) - the player is allowed to go where he/she wants to go.
Odin Sphere - The 2D-graphics, making limbs move seperated from the main body
Ecco the Dolphin - Swimming in a big ocean
Max Payne, BioShock, PlaneScape Torment - Who are you, why are you here and what's the meaning of all this? The story of the character is unclear and will unfold as you play the game.

When you blend all this together, you get Aquaria -- as we all know. It's clear to say that these elements are not what sets the game appart from the mainstream games. I think the difficulty is. Now I don't mind difficulty in a game, but let's take a look at one of the hardest RPGs on the Nintendo DS - Etrain Odyssee. How many people like that game? It's a select group of gamers that enjoy it, because the rest can't be bothered with the difficulty. And how many people play for example, let's say, Diablo on the Hell-difficulty? Once again a select group of player does.

[hanzo]

It's not You, Hanzo... I'm just saying in general.

fiu... just beacuse, if there's one thing I am not, that is a mainstream gamer!

Anyway... the fact that this game might appeal only to a small group of people is yet to be seen. And you also have to count the fact that Aquaria probably has not the wide distribution as some mainstream x-box titles, and has not thousands of posters sticked on every game store wall. I think Aquaria could appeal to far more people than those who play it right now, if they only knew. Maybe one had to do iron out some wrinkles, work a bit on some details... but I don't think Aquaria is such a specific hardcore-gamers-only product.
It is very hard in some points, but that is all concentrated on the bosses I think, and as far as I have seen, it's all about the Mythalas and the Sun Temple boss.  The rest is not so difficult.

[Glamador]

I'm neither a mainstream, nor an indie gamer.  I am just a gamer...gamer.  I play as many games as I can get my hands on (provided they arn't pieces of shit, as so many sell-out games are.  I'm looking at YOU Hollywood.).  Having played many of the "mainstream" games as well as several less-known games, one post above mentioned Odin Sphere, I can say that Aquaria is not set apart by it's difficulty. 

There are only a few things that distinguish an indie game from a mainstream one.  One of which is a noticable affect of lessened funds.  You can tell Aquaria wasn't made by a big company because it has that touch of personal attachment in it's art that just shows you that nobody was working towards another man's goal.  And as such none of the art feels as impersonal.  But that's both good and bad because a big company can make shit look really GOOD.

Also, the individuality and uniqueness of the gameplay that suggests it was made from scratch without pre-existent notions in place is a tell-tale indie game.  Whenever you see a mainstream game it's usually a game that's been made before, but with tweaks.  Not with an indie game tho, indie games are very much "not done before".

And thirdly, an indie game isn't working towards a deadline.  It's not often in an indie game that you see material that was "left out because we didn't have time."  Bioshock had that.  So did alot of other recently released games.  When you have a steadfast release date and lots of red tape to wade through it's difficult to make a game as complete as you would like.  I remember in KotOR II they had to cut out TWO PLANETS to get it out before Christmas a few years ago.  That pissed me off.  Games like Aquaria just feel more COMPLETE.

But Aquaria stands out in the fact that it's not short or unpolished like some independently created games are.  Look at all the cool indie games in Xbox Arcade.  Games like Geometry Wars that are just Arcade games.  No story, no depth, no epic quality.  Just fun gameplay.  Aquaria is a massive project which has all the completeness of an indie game, all the length and depth of a big-budget game, and all the love that you see when an artist takes pride in his work.  Aquaria may have been made independently but it really feels like a full-fledged game in the ilk of Odin Sphere.  But even that's not a good comparison.  Odin Sphere used repeated missions and bosses to artificially lengthen it's gameplay, something I did not like.  Aquaria did NO SUCH THING.  It is ALL UNIQUE.  There was NO part of Aquaria that made me repeat the same thing twice.  NOT ONCE.  And couple that with the length and scale of the world, and the tremendous atmoshpere and you've got a game that you couldn't POSSIBLY duplicate with a big budget.  Aquaria would have been truncated and impersonalized by a big company and if you two devs EVER outsource the Aquaria franchise I for one will be dissapointed.  And so will others I think.  So please please PLEASE don't feel like your work is anything short of EXTRAORDINARY.  Because that's exactly what it is.  Flaws and all.

[Xiagan]

Topic change ftw!