Bit Blot Forum
Aquaria => General => Topic started by: skrylar on December 21, 2008, 06:00:24 pm
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When I heard about Aquaria ages ago I was put off by the use of DRM (as it was explained to me, you have to activate it every time you install the game) and I do not purchase from authors that treat legitimate users as thieves. However since this is actually being *removed* in 1.1.2 I've gone ahead and purchased a copy. Kudos to Bit-Blot for shedding faulty technology, and writing good games :)
I wish the team success on future projects, though you should maybe remove the DRM a little sooner next time :P
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kind of a passive aggressive thanks there.
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kind of a passive aggressive thanks there.
I meant it to be more congratulatory than aggressive, but I'm not so great with inflection. Sorry about that.
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Just so you all know - a while after the game was released I pirated it. The DRM did not do much of anything to stop me. Last night I heard an improved version was released on steam for $15 so I bought it.
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anecdotal observation has led me to conclude that most people who go on the most about DRM are not honest customers, but informed pirates. I don't think there's much wrong with DRM and I've sailed the high cd's yarrr, it's just where it's abused. if there was a legitimate reason to reactivate this game it probably wouldn't be an issue but in cases like with MS products where if you change your hardware profile then your copy of Windows becomes inactive, that's where it's anti-customer. just because a developer attaches some copy protection on their product dosn't make them anti-customer.
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anecdotal observation has led me to conclude that most people who go on the most about DRM are not honest customers, but informed pirates. I don't think there's much wrong with DRM and I've sailed the high cd's yarrr, it's just where it's abused. if there was a legitimate reason to reactivate this game it probably wouldn't be an issue but in cases like with MS products where if you change your hardware profile then your copy of Windows becomes inactive, that's where it's anti-customer. just because a developer attaches some copy protection on their product dosn't make them anti-customer.
If you want to think that way then go head, its a stupid short sighted ignorant opinion.
If you where paying attention which I guess you aren't when you come to dumb conclusions like that you would notice DRM does NOTHING to stop piracy. In the end run it just hinders the end user in more ways than one. DRM doesn't fair any better than basic copy protection and basic copy protection is less of a hassle all over, its a simple as keeping the disk in the drive until the point the developers patch it out.
DRM however limits you to what you can do with your PC, since its somewhat resident it kicks up more of a fuss over what applications you use on your PC. If I want to use nero or roxio to burn whatever I feel I will, even uninstalling them doesn't guarentee i'll be able to play the game without DRM kicking up a fuss. Not to mention DRM limits how I upgrade my PC, change a part of two and whoops i've used an activation.
All this even before you go on to the legality of securom and it violating several license agreements including ones its built upon (OpenSSL for one). Then theres consumer rights and civil rights, even homeland security in the US says its illegal for DRM to be install without the user being aware and there securom is rootkitting the living bejebus out of peoples PC's then pulling a hitler deciding how they run their PC.
Developers in the case of EA/Ubisoft are stupid for thinking it will reduce piracy, infact do they? Personally I think they're more after the second hand sales, think of the times they've gone on record saying second hand sales are at "epidemic" levels. You think they aren't "anti-consumer" when they're more willing to push higher priced console versions which run better? Think of all the bad ports which hit the PC with the latest being GTA4. Not to mention how quick and helpful their customer support is, incase you haven't used it i'll give you a hint, it sucks, pray you never have to use it.
If you think this is just for pirates then go ahead. Just remember the difference between windows and a quick game is some 300-500 dollars/pounds/euros and you can do far more with windows and the activation of it is far more relaxed than what we are seeing on games. You aren't going to buy windows then take it back to the store and part exchange it for value towards the latest new version are you?
The movie industry tried DRM, it failed and backed out. The music industry is noticing DRM is failing and is backing out, offering clean music. The gaming industry is jumping late on the bandwagon of failure which is riding straight to failure town, the only route it knows.
Theres far more at stake here than just "protecting" a game, you are dictating how people use THEIR PC's and what they can do. I'm the one putting the cash up to buy the PC, why should I the honest consumer allow some corporate suit dictate what I can do on it to humour their paranoid ideas.
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This debate usually gets silly very fast, because people take it to either one extreme or the other, when in reality, there isn't much of an issue for the people/companies in between.
Extreme A:
Piracy is destroying the games/music industry
Not true, both industries seem to be surviving, especially the big companies. That's not to say piracy doesn't have an impact, in fact piracy probably hurts small developers the most.
Insane DRM is the answer!
Obviously not. This has proven to be wrong many times.
Extreme B:
All DRM is SecuROM, i.e. evil
While SecuROM is terrible, and I wouldn't personally want to install a game that has it, only certain games use SecuROM. And Aquaria certainly wasn't one of them.
DRM has no positive effect for anyone
Light DRM causes hardly any annoyance to customers, and prevents casual piracy.
Piracy has no effect on game sales / the music industry / etc
Obviously its having an effect. To deny any kind of negative impact is silly.
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Very well voiced Alec - let the debate end! :)
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Well, here are the results I'd like to see:
* Bitch at the companies that use insane DRM. Make them change their policies. (this is already in progress)
* Support indie developers, because they're awesome.
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I believe the second objective is already in progress - just look at the indie games on Ambrosia and Steam, the Indie Games Federation events, and the thousands of consumers buying indie games. No need to become complacent though - independent developers need more than niche status. Does an indie developer become mainstream with enough sales? If so, at what point? ^-^
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Nice statement Alec, I love indie games, because they are origianal, unlike most published big brand games, because ever since the whole Psyconauts incident, publishers have been afraid do publish origianal and new ideas, but indie games dont have to worry about that. Hopefully, the ordeal of Story vs. Selling will settle. I think Fable 2 could help, because recently, it won game of the year, and it had a good plot. But im getting off topic, and im ot sure what DRM is, but it has something to do with stopping piracy. If I pirated this game (which i didnt) I would definitely donate to bitblot anyway afterward.
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This debate usually gets silly very fast, because people take it to either one extreme or the other, when in reality, there isn't much of an issue for the people/companies in between.
Extreme A:
Piracy is destroying the games/music industry
Not true, both industries seem to be surviving, especially the big companies. That's not to say piracy doesn't have an impact, in fact piracy probably hurts small developers the most.
Insane DRM is the answer!
Obviously not. This has proven to be wrong many times.
Extreme B:
All DRM is SecuROM, i.e. evil
While SecuROM is terrible, and I wouldn't personally want to install a game that has it, only certain games use SecuROM. And Aquaria certainly wasn't one of them.
DRM has no positive effect for anyone
Light DRM causes hardly any annoyance to customers, and prevents casual piracy.
Piracy has no effect on game sales / the music industry / etc
Obviously its having an effect. To deny any kind of negative impact is silly.
Pretty much summed it all up. :)
Just a few points I would like to add on to though:
Securom used to be reasonable, I never had an issue with it and when bethesda said fallout 3 would only use it in its traditional form of copy protection not DRM I was happy... Until I got fallout 3 and it stopped me installing... then playing the game... Thank god bethesda put the loophole in. At that moment in time my system was fresh after a format with only the basics loaded (drivers, etc). Not even sony have a clue what triggers securom off. I'm generally more impartial towards securom's "darker" side for me its more about the playablity and limited activations.
Even securom isn't alone in being whacked out, TAGES used to be reasonable, now they require a driver to be installed. A driver which is known to cause BSOD's on x64bit operating systems and speaking from experience its quite a nasty experience.
I agree with the point on light DRM, look at steam. Its much more agreeable with its DRM implementation, its as simple as owning the account and logging in, none of this "authorise this pc" "deauthorise that one" "contact support because its used up all the activations" etc. I own many games on steam (hence my question in other threads regarding activating aquaria ;) thats a different matter for a different thread though ).
As much as I would like to comment on piracy its hard to. It is obvious it has an effect, the question is how much of an effect. I think the worst offender for playing UP piracy is ubisoft by far, just look at all the lengths they go to its stupidly ridiculous:
Delay PC game releases
Horrible form of DRM
Suing people (granted more of an issue outside the US)
Although the bottom one SOUNDS fair, its not, just look up davenport lyons. Its somewhat of an issue thats out of control. While doing all this against PC versions of their games the others go on in the background, leaked before release and ubisoft ignoring it.
Well, here are the results I'd like to see:
* Bitch at the companies that use insane DRM. Make them change their policies. (this is already in progress)
* Support indie developers, because they're awesome.
Done and done, especially the 2nd. If only braid would hurry up with its PC version... (even though I already have the 360 version).
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I'm a fairly "extreme" anti-DRM guy, but that's mostly because it amazes me what freedoms people are willing to give up in exchange for... nothing. What Alec said basically sums up my entire viewpoint very succinctly. Well spoken.
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anecdotal observation has led me to conclude that most people who go on the most about DRM are not honest customers, but informed pirates...
If you want to think that way then go head, its a stupid short sighted ignorant opinion.
If you where paying attention which I guess you aren't when you come to dumb conclusions like that you would notice DRM does NOTHING to stop piracy...
whoa cowboy. maybe I didn't get specific enough but I think the gist of my post was that light protection is ok and insane protection is not. seems whatever I said there set off your rant button. by refrencing MS products not working with new hardware profiles, that was to infer that I was aware of pretty much the scope of everything from there on down, including Roxio ( why do people use that malware anyways ) to mp4 files. there's a whole bunch about this subject that I'm ignorant about ( like all the different variations of protection, exactly how they all work and what companies have employed which throughout history ), but I'm ok with that and where I stand on the issue. I'm sure that Spore's drm was been discussed here at length, lord knows it has been everywhere else on the net. yes, it's a bad thing but it's not worth pulling a godwin's on me in your first reply dude. I'm not for companies dictating how I use my computer or files, please give me a tick of credit and off the ledge, I essentially agree with you on that point. I havn't come across any deablilitating drm instances ever in my daily computer usage, professional or personal, and I think that's mostly because I choose alternatives to any company that is trying to cripple usage which is as clear signal as possible. I don't think that II'm a fairly "extreme" anti-DRM guy, but that's mostly because it amazes me what freedoms people are willing to give up in exchange for... nothing. What Alec said basically sums up my entire viewpoint very succinctly. Well spoken.
was saying whether drm was effective against piracy or not, I believe my comment was that people who rant about drm are usually informed pirates which of course is just encouraging my conclusions here.
This debate usually gets silly very fast, because people take it to either one extreme or the other, when in reality, there isn't much of an issue for the people/companies in between.
Extreme A:
Piracy is destroying the games/music industry
Not true, both industries seem to be surviving, especially the big companies. That's not to say piracy doesn't have an impact, in fact piracy probably hurts small developers the most.
some smaller music bands have thrived off the exposure from p2p piracy. this is not condoning p2p whatsoever, and is probably far from the norm of experiences, but careers have bloomed from the audiences that bands otherwise would not have reached.
Insane DRM is the answer!
Obviously not. This has proven to be wrong many times....
well surmised sir.
I'm a fairly "extreme" anti-DRM guy, but that's mostly because it amazes me what freedoms people are willing to give up in exchange for... nothing. What Alec said basically sums up my entire viewpoint very succinctly. Well spoken.
I feel that way about acrobat, realplayer, .bmp, default notepad and image viewers and the start button. like crazy activist with a gasmask extreme
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I support you Alec! :)
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I don't think that II'm a fairly "extreme" anti-DRM guy, but that's mostly because it amazes me what freedoms people are willing to give up in exchange for... nothing. What Alec said basically sums up my entire viewpoint very succinctly. Well spoken.
was saying whether drm was effective against piracy or not, I believe my comment was that people who rant about drm are usually informed pirates which of course is just encouraging my conclusions here.
See, IMO and probably others that a dangerous statement, why? because as much as you are saying you don't agree with DRM you are saying those who stand against it are pretty much pirates, well informed ones at that. If thats the case why bother saying you support the view, when you are mocking them later on for it? Someone has to stay clued up on it otherwise the whole thing regarding DRM would have just floated under the bridge with bioshock and we'd all be having a horrible time with the smallest of games. Ignorance doesn't get you anywhere.
As I said since DRM is pretty much as pathetic as regular copy protection surely pirates are welcoming it as it often ends up cut through faster and they can keep their version until the world ends and never have to jump through activation hoops like legitimate consumers.
Theres plenty for people to disagree with DRM so branding everyone who disagrees with it as informed pirates is an utter joke. I'm sure if more of your average joe consumer caught wind of what they where buying with spore or (i'm assuming here) the sims 3 there would be a lot more who disagree with it.
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The P-word has been uttered! Everyone state your opinion ere the people take to another view!
Er... I just want to say thank you for releasing the new version without DRM and data encryption as well, also because it's very easy now to listen to the music of the game while you're still producing the official Soundtrack. I just hope nobody rips graphics or sound effects from your game for their own productions now that they are so easily accessible.
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I just hope nobody rips graphics or sound effects from your game for their own productions now that they are so easily accessible.
I don't think that's ever been a really bad issue, it's usually just tiny pieces that get re-used if anything. Panic's truck icon for their FTP app has been recycled in to a couple shopping sites (they actually had a laugh about it on their site at one point) and Uplink reused a clicking noise from Dungeon Keeper (the copyright tag was still on the wav, lol)
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I feel that way about acrobat, realplayer, .bmp, default notepad and image viewers and the start button. like crazy activist with a gasmask extreme
Dude, we should totally start a mob. With, like, pitchforks and torches and stuff!
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Stop pirating, start ninjaing!
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Pirate-it-before-I-buy-it kinda guy here.
I didn't pirate Aquaria because I think the demo adequately explained and showed exactly what the game was about. I wasn't aware of Aquaria prior to noticing it on sale at Steam, so I missed out on the DRM 'issue' entirely. However, given how light it sounds like it was, and Alec's attitude in this thread, I probably would never have minded the DRM had I purchased the non-Steam version.
I ended up buying the game through Steam yesterday.
The original post sounds inflammatory. I don't think that sort of tone is appropriate.
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The Minus comics are awesome. :) Welcome to the forums!
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However, given how light it sounds like it was, and Alec's attitude in this thread, I probably would never have minded the DRM had I purchased the non-Steam version.
You are entitled to that decision, but I still must ask you at what point are you willing to "put your foot down" so to speak?
The original post sounds inflammatory. I don't think that sort of tone is appropriate.
I've already apologized about that; I tend to speak aggressively against what I feel is wrong or misguided. I've seen so much apathy about things that should be taken seriously lest they worsen.
I respected Bit-Blot for how they are interactive in their community, but activation is too far IMHO and they lost it. Taking it out has restored my respect for them, and so I wish to speak more effectively than a forum post by even buying a copy of their hard work. I also wanted to make sure that it was known that this choice was out of respect than simply a random sale.
Spreadsheets cannot show intent, which is what makes it nearly impossible to argue that DRM is "good". If a game fails due to DRM the writeoff is piracy and more DRM is added. If a game succeeds, DRM is praised as the reason and more is added. By buying a copy and posting a thanks, they can know. :)
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However, given how light it sounds like it was, and Alec's attitude in this thread, I probably would never have minded the DRM had I purchased the non-Steam version.
You are entitled to that decision, but I still must ask you at what point are you willing to "put your foot down" so to speak?
I don't think activation-on-install is a consumer-unfriendly deal in 2008, when the internet is so pervasive. It can be used for valuable statistical data which would improve the product. It's fair. Software which phones home on every launch is unacceptable.
The original post sounds inflammatory. I don't think that sort of tone is appropriate.
I respected Bit-Blot for how they are interactive in their community, but activation is too far IMHO and they lost it. Taking it out has restored my respect for them, and so I wish to speak more effectively than a forum post by even buying a copy of their hard work. I also wanted to make sure that it was known that this choice was out of respect than simply a random sale.
Disclaimer: I didn't read the thread, but I felt it was necessary to point out how my opinion was different from the original post, since otherwise it could have been interpreted that I was in the same boat as you. So my last line was added as a sort of afterthought.
My feeling is that your original post spreads FUD about DRM in any form, no matter how simple it is. That's not how we are going to change the software world or reopen the second-hand market. You have to rationally judge each usage of DRM in context. You came here and treated it like SecuROM. That's not rational, and your tone can invalidate your opinion, depending on the reader. I'm sorry to sound condescending, but for the sake of the cause we philosophically align with, please remember your audience.
Edit:
In the interest of preventing further FUD:
For the record, Aquaria never had internet-based activation.
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For the record, Aquaria never had internet-based activation.
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Sorry if I am asking the obvious here, but is the Version 1.1.1 for Windows DRM free? Does that mean that I can have it simultaneously installed on my home PC, on my laptop, and on my work's PC, without any problems (and winthout being illegal)?
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Sorry if I am asking the obvious here, but is the Version 1.1.1 for Windows DRM free? Does that mean that I can have it simultaneously installed on my home PC, on my laptop, and on my work's PC, without any problems (and winthout being illegal)?
Yes we can....
I wan't to say: Yes you can :D
(I even did this with the old Version 1.0.3, but I had to use the licence Key 2 times to activate the game)
Lets see what the coming Patch 1.1.2 fixes ::)
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Sorry if I am asking the obvious here, but is the Version 1.1.1 for Windows DRM free? Does that mean that I can have it simultaneously installed on my home PC, on my laptop, and on my work's PC, without any problems (and winthout being illegal)?
I'm not entirely sure because my legalese is not very good, but the license agreement says:
Bit Blot, LLC ("Bit Blot") hereby grants, and by installing the Program you thereby accept, a limited, non-exclusive license and right to install and use one (1) copy of the Program for your use on either a home, business or portable computer.
Point 8 says that you can make a copy for archival purposes, and for some other purpose which eludes me because I don't understand what it means:
8. Limitations on License. Nothing in this Agreement shall preclude you from making or authorizing the making of another copy of the Program provided, however, that (1) such new copy is created as an essential step in your utilization of the Program in accordance with the terms of this Agreement and for NO OTHER PURPOSE; or (2) such new copy is for archival purposes ONLY and all archival copies are destroyed in the event of your Transfer of the Program, the Termination of this Agreement, or other circumstances under which your continued use of the Program ceases to be rightful.
Can anyone clarify for those who want to know if it's legal?
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8. Limitations on License. Nothing in this Agreement shall preclude you from making or authorizing the making of another copy of the Program provided, however, that (1) such new copy is created as an essential step in your utilization of the Program in accordance with the terms of this Agreement and for NO OTHER PURPOSE; or (2) such new copy is for archival purposes ONLY and all archival copies are destroyed in the event of your Transfer of the Program, the Termination of this Agreement, or other circumstances under which your continued use of the Program ceases to be rightful.
Can anyone clarify for those who want to know if it's legal?
It says this agreement will not deny you the ability to make a backup copy or having someone else back it up for you as long as it's required (computer can't use it any other way) or it's for personal keeping. Personal copies have to be broken (or given along with) the legitimate version when you give it away or if Bit-Blot says you can't have it anymore.
This is all assuming the EULA is even legal in your state, in most states they aren't and it's entirely up to which circuit the dispute goes through as to if they're enforceable. Even if the state doesn't have EULAs, it still has copyright so you can't go giving out pirate copies just because the specific agreement is meaningless :)
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6. Limitation of Liability. BIT BLOT SHALL NOT BE LIABLE IN ANY WAY FOR ... BUT NOT LIMITED TO, LOSS OF GOODWILL, WORK STOPPAGE ....
those are my 2 favourite, I'd like an illustrated real life example of how this game would make me loose goodwill. honestly, it makes you a better person. however totally get the work stoppage one and why they'd want to cover themselves on that