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Author Topic: Applauding the DRM removal  (Read 24315 times)

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Offline skrylar

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Applauding the DRM removal
« on: December 21, 2008, 06:00:24 pm »
When I heard about Aquaria ages ago I was put off by the use of DRM (as it was explained to me, you have to activate it every time you install the game) and I do not purchase from authors that treat legitimate users as thieves. However since this is actually being *removed* in 1.1.2 I've gone ahead and purchased a copy. Kudos to Bit-Blot for shedding faulty technology, and writing  good games :)

I wish the team success on future projects, though you should maybe remove the DRM a little sooner next time :P

Offline inkblob

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Re: Applauding the DRM removal
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2008, 12:50:25 am »
kind of a passive aggressive thanks there.
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Offline skrylar

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Re: Applauding the DRM removal
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2008, 10:57:26 am »
kind of a passive aggressive thanks there.

I meant it to be more congratulatory than aggressive, but I'm not so great with inflection. Sorry about that.

Offline 12345

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Re: Applauding the DRM removal
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2008, 08:57:11 pm »
Just so you all know - a while after the game was released I pirated it. The DRM did not do much of anything to stop me. Last night I heard an improved version was released on steam for $15 so I bought it.

Offline inkblob

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Re: Applauding the DRM removal
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2008, 10:31:41 pm »
anecdotal observation has led me to conclude that most people who go on the most about DRM are not honest customers, but informed pirates. I don't think there's much wrong with DRM and I've sailed the high cd's yarrr, it's just where it's abused. if there was a legitimate reason to reactivate this game it probably wouldn't be an issue but in cases like with MS products where if you change your hardware profile then your copy of Windows becomes inactive, that's where it's anti-customer. just because a developer attaches some copy protection on their product dosn't make them anti-customer. 
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Offline Flatfrogger

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Re: Applauding the DRM removal
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2008, 11:03:34 pm »
anecdotal observation has led me to conclude that most people who go on the most about DRM are not honest customers, but informed pirates. I don't think there's much wrong with DRM and I've sailed the high cd's yarrr, it's just where it's abused. if there was a legitimate reason to reactivate this game it probably wouldn't be an issue but in cases like with MS products where if you change your hardware profile then your copy of Windows becomes inactive, that's where it's anti-customer. just because a developer attaches some copy protection on their product dosn't make them anti-customer. 

If you want to think that way then go head, its a stupid short sighted ignorant opinion.

If you where paying attention which I guess you aren't when you come to dumb conclusions like that you would notice DRM does NOTHING to stop piracy. In the end run it just hinders the end user in more ways than one. DRM doesn't fair any better than basic copy protection and basic copy protection is less of a hassle all over, its a simple as keeping the disk in the drive until the point the developers patch it out.

DRM however limits you to what you can do with your PC, since its somewhat resident it kicks up more of a fuss over what applications you use on your PC. If I want to use nero or roxio to burn whatever I feel I will, even uninstalling them doesn't guarentee i'll be able to play the game without DRM kicking up a fuss. Not to mention DRM limits how I upgrade my PC, change a part of two and whoops i've used an activation.

All this even before you go on to the legality of securom and it violating several license agreements including ones its built upon (OpenSSL for one). Then theres consumer rights and civil rights, even homeland security in the US says its illegal for DRM to be install without the user being aware and there securom is rootkitting the living bejebus out of peoples PC's then pulling a hitler deciding how they run their PC.

Developers in the case of EA/Ubisoft are stupid for thinking it will reduce piracy, infact do they? Personally I think they're more after the second hand sales, think of the times they've gone on record saying second hand sales are at "epidemic"  levels. You think they aren't "anti-consumer" when they're more willing to push higher priced console versions which run better? Think of all the bad ports which hit the PC with the latest being GTA4. Not to mention how quick and helpful their customer support is, incase you haven't used it i'll give you a hint, it sucks, pray you never have to use it.

If you think this is just for pirates then go ahead. Just remember the difference between windows and a quick game is some 300-500 dollars/pounds/euros and you can do far more with windows and the activation of it is far more relaxed than what we are seeing on games. You aren't going to buy windows then take it back to the store and part exchange it for value towards the latest new version are you?

The movie industry tried DRM, it failed and backed out. The music industry is noticing DRM is failing and is backing out, offering clean music. The gaming industry is jumping late on the bandwagon of failure which is riding straight to failure town, the only route it knows.

Theres far more at stake here than just "protecting" a game, you are dictating how people use THEIR PC's and what they can do. I'm the one putting the cash up to buy the PC, why should I the honest consumer allow some corporate suit dictate what I can do on it to humour their paranoid ideas.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 11:05:39 pm by Flatfrogger »

Offline Alec

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Re: Applauding the DRM removal
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2008, 11:59:44 pm »
This debate usually gets silly very fast, because people take it to either one extreme or the other, when in reality, there isn't much of an issue for the people/companies in between.

Extreme A:
Piracy is destroying the games/music industry
Not true, both industries seem to be surviving, especially the big companies. That's not to say piracy doesn't have an impact, in fact piracy probably hurts small developers the most.

Insane DRM is the answer!
Obviously not. This has proven to be wrong many times.

Extreme B:
All DRM is SecuROM, i.e. evil
While SecuROM is terrible, and I wouldn't personally want to install a game that has it, only certain games use SecuROM. And Aquaria certainly wasn't one of them.

DRM has no positive effect for anyone
Light DRM causes hardly any annoyance to customers, and prevents casual piracy.

Piracy has no effect on game sales / the music industry / etc
Obviously its having an effect. To deny any kind of negative impact is silly.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 12:03:38 am by Alec »

Offline Chibi

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Re: Applauding the DRM removal
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2008, 12:17:12 am »
Very well voiced Alec - let the debate end!  :)

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Offline Alec

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Re: Applauding the DRM removal
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2008, 12:37:04 am »
Well, here are the results I'd like to see:

* Bitch at the companies that use insane DRM. Make them change their policies. (this is already in progress)
* Support indie developers, because they're awesome.

Offline Chibi

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Re: Applauding the DRM removal
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2008, 12:45:38 am »
I believe the second objective is already in progress - just look at the indie games on Ambrosia and Steam, the Indie Games Federation events, and the thousands of consumers buying indie games. No need to become complacent though - independent developers need more than niche status. Does an indie developer become mainstream with enough sales? If so, at what point?  ^-^
« Last Edit: December 23, 2008, 01:00:17 am by Chibi »

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Offline ChimeraThing

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Re: Applauding the DRM removal
« Reply #10 on: December 23, 2008, 01:00:52 am »
Nice statement Alec, I love indie games, because they are origianal, unlike most published big brand games, because ever since the whole Psyconauts incident, publishers have been afraid do publish origianal and new ideas, but indie games dont have to worry about that. Hopefully, the ordeal of Story vs. Selling will settle. I think Fable 2 could help, because recently, it won game of the year, and it had a good plot. But im getting off topic, and im ot sure what DRM is, but it has something to do with stopping piracy. If I pirated this game (which i didnt) I would definitely donate to bitblot anyway afterward.

Offline Flatfrogger

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Re: Applauding the DRM removal
« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2008, 01:01:40 am »
This debate usually gets silly very fast, because people take it to either one extreme or the other, when in reality, there isn't much of an issue for the people/companies in between.

Extreme A:
Piracy is destroying the games/music industry
Not true, both industries seem to be surviving, especially the big companies. That's not to say piracy doesn't have an impact, in fact piracy probably hurts small developers the most.

Insane DRM is the answer!
Obviously not. This has proven to be wrong many times.

Extreme B:
All DRM is SecuROM, i.e. evil
While SecuROM is terrible, and I wouldn't personally want to install a game that has it, only certain games use SecuROM. And Aquaria certainly wasn't one of them.

DRM has no positive effect for anyone
Light DRM causes hardly any annoyance to customers, and prevents casual piracy.

Piracy has no effect on game sales / the music industry / etc
Obviously its having an effect. To deny any kind of negative impact is silly.

Pretty much summed it all up. :)

Just a few points I would like to add on to though:

Securom used to be reasonable, I never had an issue with it and when bethesda said fallout 3 would only use it in its traditional form of copy protection not DRM I was happy... Until I got fallout 3 and it stopped me installing... then playing the game... Thank god bethesda put the loophole in. At that moment in time my system was fresh after a format with only the basics loaded (drivers, etc). Not even sony have a clue what triggers securom off. I'm generally more impartial towards securom's "darker" side for me its more about the playablity and limited activations.

Even securom isn't alone in being whacked out, TAGES used to be reasonable, now they require a driver to be installed. A driver which is known to cause BSOD's on x64bit operating systems and speaking from experience its quite a nasty experience.

I agree with the point on light DRM, look at steam. Its much more agreeable with its DRM implementation, its as simple as owning the account and logging in, none of this "authorise this pc" "deauthorise that one" "contact support because its used up all the activations" etc. I own many games on steam (hence my question in other threads regarding activating aquaria ;) thats a different matter for a different thread though ).

As much as I would like to comment on piracy its hard to. It is obvious it has an effect, the question is how much of an effect. I think the worst offender for playing UP piracy is ubisoft by far, just look at all the lengths they go to its stupidly ridiculous:
Delay PC game releases
Horrible form of DRM
Suing people (granted more of an issue outside the US)

Although the bottom one SOUNDS fair, its not, just look up davenport lyons. Its somewhat of an issue thats out of control. While doing all this against PC versions of their games the others go on in the background, leaked before release and ubisoft ignoring it.

Well, here are the results I'd like to see:

* Bitch at the companies that use insane DRM. Make them change their policies. (this is already in progress)
* Support indie developers, because they're awesome.

Done and done, especially the 2nd. If only braid would hurry up with its PC version... (even though I already have the 360 version).

Offline Quemaqua

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Re: Applauding the DRM removal
« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2008, 02:47:22 am »
I'm a fairly "extreme" anti-DRM guy, but that's mostly because it amazes me what freedoms people are willing to give up in exchange for... nothing.  What Alec said basically sums up my entire viewpoint very succinctly.  Well spoken.

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Offline inkblob

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Re: Applauding the DRM removal
« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2008, 04:54:14 am »
anecdotal observation has led me to conclude that most people who go on the most about DRM are not honest customers, but informed pirates...

If you want to think that way then go head, its a stupid short sighted ignorant opinion.

If you where paying attention which I guess you aren't when you come to dumb conclusions like that you would notice DRM does NOTHING to stop piracy...

whoa cowboy. maybe I didn't get specific enough but I think the gist of my post was that light protection is ok and insane protection is not. seems whatever I said there set off your rant button. by refrencing MS products not working with new hardware profiles, that was to infer that I was aware of pretty much the scope of everything from there on down, including Roxio ( why do people use that malware anyways ) to mp4 files. there's a whole bunch about this subject that I'm ignorant about ( like all the different variations of protection, exactly how they all work and what companies have employed which throughout history ), but I'm ok with that and where I stand on the issue.  I'm sure that Spore's drm was been discussed here at length, lord knows it has been everywhere else on the net. yes, it's a bad thing but it's not worth pulling a godwin's on me in your first reply dude. I'm not for companies dictating how I use my computer or files, please give me a tick of credit and off the ledge, I essentially agree with you on that point. I havn't come across any deablilitating drm instances ever in my daily computer usage, professional or personal, and I think that's mostly because I choose alternatives to any company that is trying to cripple usage which is as clear signal as possible. I don't think that I
I'm a fairly "extreme" anti-DRM guy, but that's mostly because it amazes me what freedoms people are willing to give up in exchange for... nothing.  What Alec said basically sums up my entire viewpoint very succinctly.  Well spoken.
was saying whether drm was effective against piracy or not, I believe my comment was that people who rant about drm are usually informed pirates which of course is just encouraging my conclusions here.


This debate usually gets silly very fast, because people take it to either one extreme or the other, when in reality, there isn't much of an issue for the people/companies in between.

Extreme A:
Piracy is destroying the games/music industry
Not true, both industries seem to be surviving, especially the big companies. That's not to say piracy doesn't have an impact, in fact piracy probably hurts small developers the most.



some smaller music bands have thrived off the exposure from p2p piracy. this is not condoning p2p whatsoever, and is probably far from the norm of experiences, but careers have bloomed from the audiences that bands otherwise would not have reached.

Quote from: Alec

Insane DRM is the answer!
Obviously not. This has proven to be wrong many times....

well surmised sir.

I'm a fairly "extreme" anti-DRM guy, but that's mostly because it amazes me what freedoms people are willing to give up in exchange for... nothing.  What Alec said basically sums up my entire viewpoint very succinctly.  Well spoken.

I feel that way about acrobat, realplayer, .bmp, default notepad and image viewers and the start button. like crazy activist with a gasmask extreme
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Offline Danger Mouse

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Re: Applauding the DRM removal
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2008, 05:52:06 am »
I support you Alec! :)