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Author Topic: Aquaria hit the P2P  (Read 111048 times)

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Offline Glamador

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Re: Aquaria hit the P2P
« Reply #105 on: February 12, 2008, 10:14:12 pm »
There are 23 official Wii games that you actually LIKE!?  I mean I love my Wii but I havn't played that many.  15, max.

This...game...ROCKS!
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Offline Alphasoldier

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Re: Aquaria hit the P2P
« Reply #106 on: February 12, 2008, 11:18:37 pm »
I could list them down for you, but I don't like them all, the ones I especially don't like is the Wario Ware game, the Sonic and the Secret rings and Need For Speed Carbon, which I thought would be awesome with the Wii, but it's a total disaster. Further I like pretty much every game I own. From Trauma Center, to Mario Party 8, to Super Mario Galaxy and pretty much every other game I own. Most of them are Worth it, which is pretty much THE reason why I like Nintendo.
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Offline Glamador

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Re: Aquaria hit the P2P
« Reply #107 on: February 13, 2008, 04:09:24 am »
Well, I like alot of things.  Warioware, Trauma Center, Zelda, No More Heroes, DBZBT3, RE: Wii Edition, Zack & Wiki, Metroid Prime 3, Wii Sports, Wii Play....those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.  I havn't played Mario Strikers Charged, Mario Party, or several of the minigame fests out there like Cooking Mama.  But I guess that's because I just don't like certain kinds of games.  Sports, Racing, and Strategy being the kinds of games I don't like.  So that excludes Need For Speed, various sports games, and Fire Emblem.  Still, I can't think of 23 I like.

This...game...ROCKS!
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Offline PiscesToAquaria

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Re: Aquaria hit the P2P
« Reply #108 on: February 13, 2008, 07:36:39 pm »
Holy cow.  23 Wii games?  I have 5, besides Wii Sports:  Mario Galaxy, Metroid' 3, S. Paper Mario, Zach & Wiki, and very recently No More Heroes.  I have Twilight Princess on the Gamecube.  (That really is a GC game.)  As far as I know, I'm done buying every Wii game I remotely care about.  I hope that changes in the future.

There's nothing new being said here about piracy.  It's the same arguments all over again.

Offline cookiecaper

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Re: Aquaria hit the P2P
« Reply #109 on: February 14, 2008, 09:12:41 am »
You can't do anything about piracy. Adding ads might be acceptable depending on situation, but it shouldn't be seen as a mechanism to recuperate "lost" sales. The fact is, the market is changing, trying to stop people intent on "stealing" your game is vain and an enormous waste of time, and you're going to have to count on the downloaders to buy it if they like it.

I have associates who don't think it's fair to only have a demo for this kind of thing; these goods do not collect damage, they are not consumable. They can be copied instantly and exactly and spread over millions of machines in seconds, all of this at no loss to the developer. You pay for bread before you eat it because if one wants to be evil and consume your bread without paying, you've lost money and have no way to recuperate the expense. It's a blind gamble to give bread first and collect pay last (although restaurants operate this way and they seem to function relatively well). If patron has a problem with the bread, or it is not as advertised, he returns it for a refund.

Is it really that much different for someone to download the full version of your game as an evaluation than it would be if he downloaded just the demo? Those who acquire from P2P technologies actually save you bandwidth costs, and in the circles I run if a game is deemed worthy it is purchased. We understand that there are real people behind these products and they need to make a living and we are more than happy to subsidize that; just don't see any point in taking our chances on a demo instead of the actual product in such a situation.

So, it boils down to this: you have to believe in people. You don't have a choice anymore, really. I actually see this as a good thing; it's quite corporatist to expect one to buy a whole product based on even a small selection when there is no harm whatsoever in evaluating the real deal, and there is no harm in doing so with software. There is benefit, even if guy decides he shouldn't buy your game: the community grows, word-of-mouth gets going, people contribute content (guides, mods, fan art/fan fic).

Just takes a small paradigm shift to think of ways a proprietor can exploit these new delivery systems to his great advantage; get past the "what if they don't buy it!" and embrace the manifold positive aspects that come from simply trusting your user. Most people do have a conscience, and if they have the money and they appreciate my game, it is my firm belief that as long as the developer didn't use up the customer's investment by forcing him/her to waste hours circumventing DRM and copy protection, and developer treats end-users like grown-ups, fans are more than happy to pay a fair price.

You have to believe that they'll do the right thing and support your game if they like it. It's inevitable that your data will appear on unauthorized networks; you should beat the pirates to the punch so that you can control the distribution. Someone with a grudge might load in a trojan, or other bad things, and this would impugn your reputation. You can add a text file in the torrent that states that you're a very small company, a license is very reasonably priced, and you'd greatly appreciate a vote of confidence in the form of financial support. You should add an about screen to the actual binary, imo.

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Offline IceD

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Re: Aquaria hit the P2P
« Reply #110 on: February 14, 2008, 12:01:19 pm »
Hmm, yeah...

I also use torrents, but I do this mainly only for the things I can't get by any normal means in my country or anime, which is also rather hard to get. I used to download some games,  but as Alpha said earlier, I also always bought every title I downloaded. I see it as a justification when somebody buys the thing, he downloaded from a torrent earlier and it seems o.k. to me in that situation. It's normal, we will propably never get rid of this, but at least it's way more better than normal piracy. Most of groups invloved into preparing the torrents are just people who do it for fun, testing their hacking and programming skills and they don't want to make any profits out of this. It's obvious, that you can even see some messages from them, placed in the notes: "If you liked the game, buy it! Support game developers! Don't steal other's work!", and it's also ok. I hate normal piracy, but torrents are kinda justified because of this.

It's just a matter of honesty and truth of various people; how do they react, or get invloved into this. Again...

Offline Cliftor

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Re: Aquaria hit the P2P
« Reply #111 on: February 14, 2008, 05:59:55 pm »
I prefer THIS kind of antipiracy measure.  It seems pretty damn funny.  Is it harder for pirates to search for numerous tiny checks throughout the game rather than a few single checks?

Either way, I wish all companies did this as a unilateral policy.  It'd be hilarious to hear pirate sob-stories filling my internetz when their game goes haywire.


Offline PiscesToAquaria

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Re: Aquaria hit the P2P
« Reply #112 on: February 14, 2008, 08:33:03 pm »
Flooding the piracy channels with crippled versions that seem to work fine for a while would be funny.  It would be quite a shock for a pirate to suddenly see a box pop up, saying that to play on they need to buy a license from the legal distribution site.  These are eventually weeded out, but they would have an impact for a while.

Offline Glamador

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Re: Aquaria hit the P2P
« Reply #113 on: February 14, 2008, 10:29:23 pm »
I think the "moral significance" of torrenting and pirating stems from the intentions of the torrenter.  I know people who torrent for the simple reason that they don't feel like paying for something.  Then there are people who have reasons aside from pure greed.  If you're intention is to either pay for, or delete what you've downloaded once you've "demoed" it then I think it's equivalent to say, watching a movie on TV, or playing a game demo and then going out and buying the full version.  It's all about what you INTEND at the time.

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Offline Fynn

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Re: Aquaria hit the P2P
« Reply #114 on: February 16, 2008, 08:26:02 am »
@cookiecaper:
Although unrelated to my previous post, I agree with a lot of the points you made.  Adding in anti-hacker measures to games just makes them more determined to crack it, while at the same time upsetting the real customers.  I think something like this was added into BioShock?

@Cliftor:
It's cute to see how much you'd enjoy seeing these bad guys get their comeuppance, but most crackers can catch these kinds of things.  That's kind of why they're in the business.  We saw how much trouble 2K Games made with their SecuROM junk.  What was it, 2 weeks until a crack came out?  And the funny thing is, a lot of paying customers actually downloaded the crack too, just to get around it!  The only people who'll get screwed over will be the unlucky paying customers.

@Xiagan, Cruxx & others:
Thanks, I appreciate it.  I might've stirred the pot a bit, not to make enemies, but as I mentioned to inkblob, I just can't stand seeing these kinds of statements, especially on this kind of board (or even thread).  Pooing on pirates who steal the game you love, while admitting to theft in other venues, just screams for a wake-up call.

Quote from: inkblob
welcome to the forum Fynn, glad you joined just to admonish everyone.  is this a clever 'belly of the whale' reference to Pinocchio? didn't know which way to turn but now our conscience, Jiminy is here.

Thanks for the welcome.  And I didn't claim to be some great moral compass that everyone should follow.  Just wanted to point out the inconsistencies of those who are supporting Bit Blot while at the same time admitting to the same crime that started this thread.  What can I say, I abhor hypocrisy.

Quote from: Glamador
Did I say it would hold up in court?  Nope.  Why don't I buy a movie instead of an anime?  Becuase I wanted an anime NOT a movie that's why.  It's not the path of least resistance, it's because absortitant prices have completely barred me from doing one of the things I love to do, watch anime.  I'm stealing it.  Plain and simple.  If they want to price their product so high that the people who want to buy it can't without starving, then I'm not giving them that satisfaction.  Also, I do purchase anime overseas or from eBay.  But that's in japanese, and I prefer it in english.

In short, when it comes to anime, I'm not taking any kind of moral high ground at all.  I don't download anything else illegally IF I CAN HELP IT.  I always go out of my way to buy things legally, if the situation warrants it.  But I'm not going to continue to defend my actions, because what you think doesn't matter.  I'm essentially a very selfish person, with a moderately good sense of morality.  I know full well that if I don't support these products somehow, then they will cease being made, and that is the LAST thing I want.

The quip about courts was just a figure of speech (or was it?).  And the part about buying a movie instead of anime was sarcasm (which I hear doesn't translate well over the internet).

The last time I checked, watching anime wasn't a matter of life or death.  If saving $25 for an anime video is a choice between starvation or not, I'd say you have more pressing issues to address.  Just how much anime are you trying to watch, anyway?  You can't eat your cake and have it too.  I don't want to make presumptions, but I'll assume that you bought Aquaria for $30.  Did this purchase make you question whether you'd be able to eat this month or not?

But I'm glad that you can admit to your true colors.  That wasn't so hard, was it?  You're now a step above the rest: a person who knows that they're doing wrong, but just doesn't give a shit about it.  Now if we could just get those pesky anime licensers to stop charging so much.  I'm just baffled at your statement of "I'm stealing it" and how you then arrive at that last statement.  This is a paradox, and one of these statements or intents is false. 

Quote from: Alphasoldier
Heh, Welcome and Goodbye.

Seriously man, only coming on here to rant against people, what's the next thing, report this topic to the cops and tell them to track us?

I download movies because Cinema's are expensive, we used to pay 5f that's like.. 2.60€ now, you know what we pay for it nowadays? 12.50€ for the simple movies, while there are also movies of 15€ and 20€, so please, I really think I have all right to actually download 2 or 3 movies with every movie I watch in the Cinema, and I also buy A LOT of DVDs we have LOADS of them.

Further about the games, If I owned a game and I cracked the CD or in any case I think I really have the RIGHT to actually download that game again. Even though at a lot of times I didn't. I bought 5 copies of Tiberian Sun. At this very moment I own one of the two CDs that is NEEDED to play the game. Yes, I could go search for the game, buy it AGAIN and lose more money while I only play it for a while. Sometimes I feel like playing the old classics, if I can't find my CD, my CD is broke or just doesn't work I DOWNLOAD the game. And if someone can point me out that I'm wrong with that I'll change my whole freaking life and never pirate again.

Further on the music, yes, I know it's wrong, yes I know I shouldn't do it, and no it's not a excuse that other people do it too, I know that. I just refuse to search months for a CD that I can just download through torrents or P2P.

You make really good points, I know but this isn't the year 2000 anymore. People pirate, things get hacked, period. There is little you can do about it. Until a super-genius shows up, takes the right side and builds a super anti hack thing, things WILL get hacked and people will get things free.

So far humanity isn't as near as criminal-free and it won't be like that in a long time.

Well, thanks for the welcome, but I only left for a little while.  And no, I won't call the cops, but I will say from personal experience that the law tends to sneak up on you when you least expect it.

Yeah, man!  I remember when movies cost like $5 to watch.  Now it's $10 or more!  Insane!  What did I do about it?  I just stopped going to movie theaters, and read reviews or asked friends about it.  But hey, don't let me stop you, Mr. Deserver.  You've obviously done greater things for society and are entitled to watch a few movies on the sly.

I am sorry for your loss of games, as I too have had the problem of discs getting scratched, broken or even lost.  But you might wanna check the fine print in your user's manual or the EULA before you start mentioning "rights" to download a game.  You know, that big wall o' text that pops up when you install a PC game, but most people just skip?  Have you tried checking warranties, or seeing if the company can replace your broken disc?  I heard Gametap is pretty good at getting lots of games on your computer, maybe C&C is on there?

But in the end, I'm glad that you can finally admit to joining the club of not giving a shit.  It's best not to hide our piratey tendencies.  Given the choice between having to "search months" or "just download" something, why are people still surprised by the answer?

Quote from: Zam
Fynn, if a developer were to re-release something, then It would be with something new added into it. When they stop selling games (old sharewaregames) you can't buy it from someone else. Also, pirating old games once the producer/liscence holder stops selling them does not in any way hurt the developer. Only walmart, when they don't make quite as many sales.

Which I couldn't be assed about, to be honest.

Ok, lemme just make sure I got this right.  After the producer or developer stops "selling" a game, it's perfectly all right to start pirating a game.  Because hey, the people who created it will no longer be compensated for it.  I think the next logical question would be, where does this leave the retailers?

Believe me, I'd love to stick it to Wal-Mart as much as the next guy, but the video game industry depends on the old brick-and-mortar stores and having the presence of games on their shelves.  Do I have to spin out a hypothetical example of stores losing money on sales leading to less demand from producers, which in turn leads to less production overall?  Don't make me do it, please.

Why do you think there's leftover copies of games sitting in bargain bins or on people's auctions on eBay?  Don't tell them that since they don't represent Black Isle Studios (I'm assuming this stems from the Planescape example), they no longer deserve money or compensation.  BIS went out of business, so any money spent on their products is wasted, right?  Might as well pirate!

As for re-releasing, why would it have to include something new?  It could be as simple as making more copies due to fan demand.  Interplay is almost back on its feet I think.  Why not ask them to do a reprint of Torment?  But would they make as much money now if the game wasn't pirated?  Who knows?  Maybe they won't now since it wouldn't turn much of a profit.

Quote from: inkblob
it's all well and good to quote AlphaSoldier, Glamador and anyone else who posted their views on downloading media and tear them a new one, it's quite easy too. they chose to be honest, and it's rather refreshing to see someone say openly their views on a matter.  they did not have to post their views, but being so honest about something like this it will attract do-gooder copynistas who think the most important thing plauging the world is intellectual property infringment.  (c) laws are different in different states and countries and are in a great state of flux. artists and companies are meeting the new marketplace head on with new methods of selling their product. Radiohead let the buyers choose how much to spend on their new album and it became the top selling album in the US.  I'm finding the people waving the flaming flag of copyrights are generally douches, they arn't the nicest people to begin with and here's a great cause to be twit pretty much anywhere. sure there is currently legal backing, but in many countries it's either unenforced, unenforcable or going to change. pirates who are douches should be busted, those who download the whole net and redistribute it without a care for where it came from, but lay off the college kid who brings down the hard to get album or someone who dosn't want to be gouged seeing an ok movie.  in my day to day real life, I've yet to run into someone who dosn't pirate something on some level. that's including businesses, students, parents, neighbours, everyone who the topic has come up. everyone seems to have their own line in the ethical beach, some draw it at no music, some at not their music, some just their music, some just the cds they bought, some don't care.

what's important here is that people are finding out about the game, sometimes through pirated copies and then going out and buying it for whatever reason. I personally wasn't guilted, I support good products and buy software that's been useful or very entertaining to me. I'd never be motivated by guilt, some might be, but if my guess is that if anyone saw this product and authentically liked it they would be buying it out of support and appreciation. my original point was I got to this game via p2p exposure, so it's not all doom, there is an unquantifiable effect of it being out there in the wild. but really, those people who are impulse pirating it would not have bought the game anyways, so they are at least getting exposure to it and their friends might see it ( like in my case ) so hard to say if it's really impacting sales at all, helping out or breaking even.

Geez, why'd you have to go and get me all ready to reply, just to end up saying stuff that I mostly agree with anyway?  I didn't think of it as tearing them a new one.  Just trying to get them to see things from another point of view (admittedly, mine).  I thought this was a thread on people downloading Aquaria, after all.  But being able to point out inconsistencies in their posts helps build my case.  And in their responses, they managed to say that they were aware of what they were doing, but just couldn't be bothered to take the legal approach.  Maybe not completely free of justifications, but about as good as it'll get.

But I am curious, why are you opposed to those who fight copyright infringement?  How will we be able to distinguish the "douche pirates" from the "college kid" (not necessarily mutually exclusive)?  If your best friend received a subpoena to appear in court for distributing copyrighted material, would you support him wholeheartedly with testimony to his good nature, even if his computer was hosting the equivalent of Suprnova?  For some reason, I'm reminded of the old anti-drug conundrum: Who's easier to go after, the drug dealers or the drug users?  I hate the MPAA and RIAA too, but can you honest-to-god tell me that they have no right to do it?  I feel bad for the musicians getting screwed by the record industry, and the writers by the entertainment biz.  But this is getting a bit off-topic now.

I know things get pirated on a daily basis, but what does this really say about our society?  This stuff is so easy to get, it's like picking up a $20 bill off the ground and just keeping it.  Should we try to change people's morality?  Should we just keep putting in anti-piracy measures and cross our fingers hoping to make a profit?  Or we could just own up to the fact that this stuff is gonna get downloaded, and there's really not much anyone can do about it.

P.S. I don't hate any of you guys for pirating or whatever, I'm not your mother.  You could drive your hot pink 1967 Cadillac Eldorado convertible, with whale skin hubcaps and all-leather cow interior and big brown baby seal eyes for headlights, at 115 miles per hour getting one mile per gallon, etc etc. for all I care.  Just realize that there are always consequences to your actions, whether apparent or not.  The people who downloaded Aquaria are pretty much using the same reasoning that's been shown here, whether it's justified or not.  And like it or not, everyone's basically in the same boat.

Offline Alphasoldier

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Re: Aquaria hit the P2P
« Reply #115 on: February 16, 2008, 12:35:36 pm »
Well that was a nice big useless post.

And it makes me wonder if you downloaded Aquaria through pirating.


Okay, that wasa bit rude, but seriously, did YOU even tried looking it from another point of view? With pretty much every action I do, I look what concequences this may have, to whom, and if it's good or not. No, pirating is not good and can have bad concequences, but doesn't most of the time.
And that agreement in games is utter bullshit, I have taken several games, LIKE CnC, Red Alert 2, where I actually read the License agreement, and there was nothing no shit in that said I could actually request a new CD.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2008, 12:48:53 pm by Alphasoldier »
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Offline KingAl

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Re: Aquaria hit the P2P
« Reply #116 on: February 16, 2008, 03:59:50 pm »
I think claiming a moral imperative against pirating 'abandonware' is a bit much. Sure, anyone who attempts to make a legal distinction doesn't know what they're talking about, but leaving classics untouched at the whims of bean counters, particularly in an age where the selling of products for download is so effortless, strikes me as an entirely arbitrary proscription - the tenth commandment is not Thou Shalt Not Breach Copyright. I don't particularly feel that any other piracy is justifiable, but I'm not going to judge anyone in that regard. Unless they try to justify it :P

Offline Cruxx

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Re: Aquaria hit the P2P
« Reply #117 on: February 16, 2008, 06:11:51 pm »
I thought that the basic point was that, if you torrent your a bad guy. Doesn't matter whether you torrent off EA or off Bit blot. Your still a pirate. Alphasoldier and Glamador tried to justify it, but as alpha explained later, he was just joking.

Fynn has kind of strayed off now, saying why we should not torrent as i understand it.
 

I think the "moral significance" of torrenting and pirating stems from the intentions of the torrenter.  I know people who torrent for the simple reason that they don't feel like paying for something.  Then there are people who have reasons aside from pure greed.  If you're intention is to either pay for, or delete what you've downloaded once you've "demoed" it then I think it's equivalent to say, watching a movie on TV, or playing a game demo and then going out and buying the full version.  It's all about what you INTEND at the time.

 Wrong. Its not about what you intend. The means do not justify the ends, nor does the end justify the means. I dont give a damn what your reasons are for torrenting.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2008, 06:14:40 pm by Cruxx »

Offline Glamador

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Re: Aquaria hit the P2P
« Reply #118 on: February 17, 2008, 01:09:26 am »
I'll admit I stopped reading after the part pertaining to me.  LONG post.  And yes, I have already considered the idea that I'm contributing to the problem.  I took economics I know how it works.  But the simple fact is, my parents are paying for my meals right now, which I very much appreciate.  My only personal income comes from my scholarship which must also go towards books and such.  So I have very little in the way of pure spending money each month.  I like games and anime, but I've had to limit myself considerably since I've had to start paying my own way for it (while I was in middle/high school my parents kindly footed the bill).  As a full time student you can imagine I need something to take my mind off things, and the way I see it, isn't anime and games a better outlet than sex or drugs?  I think so.  But if I can't get my hands on these things then I'd be in a real spiraling depression.  Everybody needs entertainment.  And just to be clear, if I could afford it, I certainly would pay for anything and everything.  And once I get a nice degree and a nice job with good pay (which I should, in my current carreer path) then I can afford to go to the store and buy stuff.  Besides, it's just plain easier to skip down the road to Best Buy and purchase something, since downloading takes a LONG time.  With my slow connection it sometimes takes a week to download one 26 episode anime.  Admittedly that's about how long it takes me to watch one, but still.  Anyway, you see my point.  People will want what they want, and if one means of procurring it is barred (as it is for me, at this moment) then they will find another means.  That's all I've done.  Preferrably I'd like to support the economy, since I am a supporter of the capitalist method, but I'm far more of a supporter of getting the things I like.  Selfish I know, but I'm kind of a selfish person.

This...game...ROCKS!
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Offline Fynn

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Re: Aquaria hit the P2P
« Reply #119 on: February 17, 2008, 02:13:39 am »
Quote from: Alphasoldier
Well that was a nice big useless post.

And it makes me wonder if you downloaded Aquaria through pirating.

Okay, that wasa bit rude, but seriously, did YOU even tried looking it from another point of view? With pretty much every action I do, I look what concequences this may have, to whom, and if it's good or not. No, pirating is not good and can have bad concequences, but doesn't most of the time.
And that agreement in games is utter bullshit, I have taken several games, LIKE CnC, Red Alert 2, where I actually read the License agreement, and there was nothing no shit in that said I could actually request a new CD.

If it really matters that much to you, no, I did not pirate Aquaria, but I haven't bought it yet either.  Only played the demo, but you're free to make any assumptions you want since I'll have no way to prove this to you.  And I'm not attempting to drag your name through the mud, just using your speeches as an example to make my point.  Because you're not the only one to have said or thought these things.  A lot of people I knew in college believed the same things.  And I did try to look at it from your point of view.  Here is what you said:

Quote
I download movies because Cinema's are expensive, we used to pay 5f that's like.. 2.60€ now, you know what we pay for it nowadays? 12.50€ for the simple movies, while there are also movies of 15€ and 20€, so please, I really think I have all right to actually download 2 or 3 movies with every movie I watch in the Cinema, and I also buy A LOT of DVDs we have LOADS of them.

You buy "a lot of DVDs", got it.  But I couldn't figure out how you can jump from that to "I have all right to actually download 2 or 3 movies".  Why?  Is it your personal mission in life to watch every movie ever made?  Did you buy the wrong ones and wished you had gotten the ones you don't own instead?  To me, it's just basically the same as believing, "I download movies because it's easy and free, and I'll never get caught".  But it's so hard to get people to say this, because they don't want to admit that they're thieves!  Do you see what I'm trying to say?

About the EULA, I didn't mean that it tells you how to order a new CD.  I meant that there's usually a clause that says "Do not distribute this game, attempt to resell it, blah blah".  I feel bad that you would have to pay for the game every time that you broke it, though I probably would also caution you to be more careful.  If the game stops working and you didn't scratch it or break it, you can usually return it to the company for a cheap replacement.  You may feel entitled to a free replacement via the Internet, but that doesn't make it right.

Doesn't have a consequence most of the time?  Have you ever heard of the butterfly effect?  If you were really the only one committing piracy, then yeah, there isn't much of a consequence.  But being part of a community (and let's face it, if you have access to downloadable material, you are one of them) means you have a much greater impact than any one individual.  The nature of bittorrents means that you become another cog in the machine.  This isn't something you can wash your hands free of because you're not as bad as the rest of them.

(All that said and done, I'm sure you're an okay guy in real life.  I may feel a bit disappointed in the train of thought used to arrive at the result, but what's one anonymous guy's opinion matter on the Internet?)

Quote from: KingAl
I think claiming a moral imperative against pirating 'abandonware' is a bit much. Sure, anyone who attempts to make a legal distinction doesn't know what they're talking about, but leaving classics untouched at the whims of bean counters, particularly in an age where the selling of products for download is so effortless, strikes me as an entirely arbitrary proscription - the tenth commandment is not Thou Shalt Not Breach Copyright. I don't particularly feel that any other piracy is justifiable, but I'm not going to judge anyone in that regard. Unless they try to justify it

Well, trying to legitimize their actions is just a load of bologna.  The disclaimers on these sites say things such as "It is legal to download this game if the company has gone out of business" or "You are authorized to download one copy to replace your own if you lost or broke yours".  I remember claims on rom servers saying "You can download roms for 24 hours before being required to delete them".  The hell?  They're just confusing the ones who don't want to break any laws, and the real pirates are pretty much going to ignore it anyway.  It's just wishful thinking and vain attempts to avoid lawsuits.

How many games would have been lost to the cosmos if someone wasn't keeping a backup copy of it somewhere?  You could do a simple search for "roms" or "abandonware" and see huge lists of games you probably never even heard of.  Now, if you were saving these games for posterity, that'd be a commendable effort.  You'll be praised and lauded by others who appreciate the free exchange and preservation of data.  It's like being the Internet version of Robin Hood or something.  But these sites basically operate on the premise of, who's going to stop us?  I'm not an accountant or lawyer, but I would be willing to guess that with these games being thrown around in disregard of copyright laws, it basically means that your copyright is worth jack shit.  Why do we even have copyright laws then?  Why do they have a 100 year lifespan and not just die with the company?  (This is a whole different beast of a discussion though)

Maybe people who download abandonware consider themselves connoisseurs  or historians or anti-copyright activists.  Just realize that you're indulging in a guilty pleasure.

Quote from: Cruxx
I thought that the basic point was that, if you torrent your a bad guy. Doesn't matter whether you torrent off EA or off Bit blot. Your still a pirate. Alphasoldier and Glamador tried to justify it, but as alpha explained later, he was just joking.

Fynn has kind of strayed off now, saying why we should not torrent as i understand it.

Quote from: Glamador
I think the "moral significance" of torrenting and pirating stems from the intentions of the torrenter.  I know people who torrent for the simple reason that they don't feel like paying for something.  Then there are people who have reasons aside from pure greed.  If you're intention is to either pay for, or delete what you've downloaded once you've "demoed" it then I think it's equivalent to say, watching a movie on TV, or playing a game demo and then going out and buying the full version.  It's all about what you INTEND at the time.

Wrong. Its not about what you intend. The means do not justify the ends, nor does the end justify the means. I dont give a damn what your reasons are for torrenting.

Ok, if he really was joking, I must have missed that, and I apologize.  Sometimes it's hard to tell what a person means.  If they add a smiley after a sentence, I can't tell if they're making a tongue-in-cheek comment, or just softening the impact of what they're really trying to say.  The statement of not giving singers more money than they deserved seemed like one of those thought processes that I was addressing in my post.

The idea of being a bad guy is subjective.  I don't really think anyone here thinks of themselves as a bad guy, and can argue that they'll leave this world a better place than it was.  But if I get caught downloading the newest Pokemon game by the ESA, no argument in the world is going to exonerate me.  When I was offering examples of why one shouldn't pirate, it was to try to show the effects of their actions.  Whether it be showing a different side of the morality equation, or a cause and effect.  I hate to be so blunt, but if one really believes that it's perfectly okay to pirate something and there aren't any consequences, then that person is truly naive.  You could simply just go without whatever it is you want; not all desires are meant to be fulfilled.

If you played a game demo or watched a TV broadcast of a movie, it was because this was something the makers wanted you to have.  If you download a movie to "demo" it, how is this any different than watching it without paying?  What if you didn't like it?  You don't end up paying for it, but have reaped the benefit of having watched it at least once.  You basically got something for nothing.  Surely you can see the problem with this.  It's like holding the company's product hostage and saying, "I'll pay for it if I think it's worth it".  This line of thought is only acceptable if you haven't obtained the product, and seems kind of silly when you've already gotten what you wanted, because you're holding all the cards now.

To me, there's a fundamental difference between saying, "I'm gonna download this because I'm just a cheap bastard who can't be arsed to pay for stuff" and "I'm gonna download this because it's not really hurting anyone, and I still go to church, donate to charity and pay my taxes".  The former realizes that what he's doing is wrong and accepts his fate, but the latter has some sort of regret for his actions or doesn't want to face the responsibilities it entails.  I don't want to imply that the hardened criminal is on a higher ethical tier than the man who steals food to survive.  But whether you think that companies don't deserve money, or can't be bothered to do things the legitimate way, or even that you somehow deserve something, is not an honest excuse for these crimes.  In our society, the poor man would receive a much lighter sentence, but is still viewed as a thief.

Whether it's games, movies, music, or anime, every time you download something without paying for it is a blow to the industry.  Producers, publishers, middle-men, retailers and end-users are all part of the equation, and someone gets affected.  One little freebie for yourself might not seem so wrong.  But think of this analogy: water is still water at 99 degrees Celsius, and it's that last degree that makes all the difference.  Everything tends to add up.  Heh, almost like global warming.

What is the point I'm trying to make?  If you pirated something, you did wrong.  Just be honest to yourself.  If you want to stay on the right side of the law, there's always alternatives available to you.  But whenever you cross the line, it was your own choice to do it; no one forced you.  And whether you want to admit it or not, it was done because it was the path of least resistance and greatest personal reward.  It's easy to be a scofflaw when the odds of being punished are one in a million.  It's human nature.  It's a sad state of our society, but c'est la vie.

Like I said, I don't really care what you download or how often you do it.  I don't want to be the morality police, though inkblob may have been close with the Jiminy comparison.  It's a free country (or so I hear), and a free Internet.  But don't sugar-coat your deeds like you're trying to balance some karmic scale.  You relinquished your position on the right side of the law; don't try to claim you're still on the right side of ethics as well, unless it were a matter of life or death.  Maybe it just confuses me how people can occasionally "dabble" in piracy and still try to appear as some model citizen.  In my opinion, the less said about your piracy, the better.

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@Glamador:
I just saw your post while I was still editing mine.  Yeah, it was long, but I just want to minimize the number of times I post, by saying all that I can at once.  I can empathize with your position.  We all want nice things, whether or not we can afford it.  Being a full-time student can come with an enormous workload, with deadlines to meet and tons of stress to boot.  Perhaps games and anime are better than sex and drugs (probably subject to change depending on who you ask).  If given the choice between downloading a few games or shows, or having a depressed student drop out of school and have their life spiral downward, I'd be hard pressed to defend copyrights.  But you've made it clear that you are content with this course of action.  Anyway, piracy is simply weighing risk vs. reward.

I guess if you do realize that despite your predicament, your actions will still have an impact on the industries you love or depend on, then that's about all I can hope for.  And you also realize that people will tend to indulge themselves before others, which helps clear up the distinction between an "Aquaria pirate" and the others.  It's just a matter of perspective and priorities; we're not all saints.  But we can still wag our fingers at each other.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 02:26:56 am by Fynn »