Bit Blot Forum
Aquaria => Gameplay => Topic started by: hanzo on December 23, 2007, 03:16:58 pm
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I was finally able to beat the Mithalas god, I got the beast form, got the spirit form, got the pirana pet from the frogman, went up until I reached the sun temple god (that worm thing you encounter after the the path filled with spikes, with the water going up and down). At this point I got stuck, went totally frustrated, started to hate the game and deinstalled the whole thing. :'(
Now, I still think Aquaria is a great game, with brillant ideas in gameplay, and a wonderful athmosphere... But to me it had some big flaws, that made me hate it in several points, and I would like to explain why.
First, though, I must admit that there is one thing I have always hated in any game: having to jump from floating platforms and avoiding spikes. I know there is people who love this, but I just can't bear it, and that is probably responsible at least for 50% of my disappointment with the game. On the other hand, one thing I have always loved, are adventure games where you have to solve puzzles and riddles, but on that side, in my humble opinion, the game lacks in communication with the player. The game is full of hints, but most of them are kind of hard to decode, and a lot are really hidden, or too far fetched to be understood, and generally speaking, the game is really vague on what you're supposed to do.
You know, there is no game without rules, every game has rules, that define how you're supposed to reach the final goal. These rules, in Aquaria, where never really clear.
Most of the problems with the game reach the surface when you have to face a boss. A good example is the Mythalas God: how was I supposed to know that shooting at it wasn't doing any good? The rule to beat the boss is: throw poison frogs in his mouth until he turns red, then shoot him. But then again, how was I supposed to know I could shoot him when he was red, since I couldn't do it before.
The first time I confronted the beast I spent 30 minutes shooting it, until I started to think that either the energy of the beast must have been 7000 hp or it was immune to my shots. The problem was that there where no real clues (like a sound of some kind or a visual clue) that made me understand it, so you had to try a lot to find out. Once I got this, I had to understand that the poison frog was the solution, and actually I was already bugged enough, so that I went to the forum to seek advice, because I hardly have the time to try... you die and die again and just get frustrated a lot. And this is mainly because the nearest save spot is 3 levels above, so each time the beast kills you, you have to do all that swimming and dodging creatures down the stream, over and over again. Somebody told me there was a save spot right there, and in fact there was one, unfortunately you had to kill the boss before you could reach it, since it's right there behind him. The same person that told me about the save spot said that I would have understood if I had read the Mythalan writings on the wall... hmm... well, that's a great thing if those writings actually make sense, and are not simply a decoration of the background. I would never have thought that they could make sense in the first place, and it really shouldn't be something you must know to be able to progress in the game.
There's spots where the communication works better, like where you have to get the gears spinning, the game gives you a clear hint, and then you just have to figure out what to do with the hint.
Where the frustration reaches it's peak is, for my personal experience, the part where you must battle the sun temple boss. The boss itself is quite a challenge and you have to try a lot of times to find out what's the best way to kill it. The fact that you have to jump over those spikes just to be killed by that beast, over and over again, just got me completely mad.
The problem here is that the controls are not very accurate, so you end up hitting those spikes a lot of time, reaching the monster with little energy left, so you have even less time to try things.
It might be me who's a bit impaired o these kind of things... but then, I might not be the only one...
All in all, I loved Aquaria from the first videos I saw... but now I'm just too frustrated to play with it... anyway, I'm not telling you this because I need to complain with somebody, I just want to express my critique on the parts of the game that could be better, because I see the huge potential!
Hannes
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Well, I must say those are extremely valid points and feelings that I had myself. But I also think that the difficulty of the game is extremely offset by how enjoyable and experience it is. I think that using this forum in conjunction with the in-game hints is a good idea. Personally I had to visit these forums I think 4 times to get through my first run. Once because I was stuck in the sun temple (didn't think I could bind the blue thing, forgot to try, have since wised up). Once because of the Sun Temple boss. Once because I couldn't find the fuck to do with the whale. And technically several times to find the treasures I missed.
Anyway now that you know you're not alone in your feelings let me say why I didn't uninstall the game and doubt I ever will. It was one of the most engaging and excitingly unique experiences in a game I've had in a long while (barring Portal). It was harder than your average game and I came to realize this VERY quickly. But I also love to explore and I'm a collection whore. So this game suits me very well. As to your complaint with communication, I couldn't agree more, but at the same time, if I had gotten more hints in boss battles I don't think I would have felt as satisfied with myself once I figured them out. As to the sun temple worm, I found that I became quickly frustrated thinking I had to puzzle him to death (like so many other bosses) and I couldn't figure it out. Once I got on the forums and realized I just had to pound the hell out of him I adjusted my strategy and found that I gained victory in 5 attempts. Now you may say "But didn't those spikes drive you nuts!?" and to that the answer is no. I didn't get frustrated by the spikes one bit. I had no trouble with them. In fact I don't understand why people ARE having trouble. It's a simple maze that once you know the correct route you can follow it exactly the same every time and never get hurt. If I had FRAPS I would make a video to show you. But frankly, if the Sun Temple boss has you THAT frustrated, then get somebody else to beat it for you and play the rest of the game, because I really think that the Sun Temple worm is the most frustrating part of the game and you won't be dissapointed with it from then onward.
As to strategies for the sun temple boss. I really threw them out the window. I jacked myself up on hot soup, spicy rolls, turtle soup, and LOTS of healing items, then just shot the guy with minor care to dodging and major care to CLICKING AS FAST AS I COULD. Or you could use that nature form trick, works like a charm.
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Sun Temple boss is cool with spider roll + charge shots with maybe a couple spicy rolls.
The spider roll prevents him from moving around.
But yeah, there are a lot of ways to get past things. The "unfortunate" thing is that they require thinking.
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I thought with Mithalas, the flashing yellow was a good visual indicator that I wasn't doing damage. Enemies and previous bosses have flashed red when I've damaged them, and it's like that in many other games I've played where bosses are only vulnerable in certain spots.
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Also for the mithalas boss, there is a closer save. You actually have to look for it though. ;)
Dissing the controls is a bit weird. You have three different options available to you, and all are accurate.
You can use the mouse only.
You can use the keyboard to move and use the mouse to aim. (just start using the ASDW keys)
You can use a gamepad if you have it.
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But yeah, there are a lot of ways to get past things. The "unfortunate" thing is that they require thinking.
are you trying to say something? :)
As to strategies for the sun temple boss. I really threw them out the window. I jacked myself up on hot soup, spicy rolls, turtle soup, and LOTS of healing items, then just shot the guy with minor care to dodging and major care to CLICKING AS FAST AS I COULD. Or you could use that nature form trick, works like a charm.
I tried the nature form trick... didn't work for me...
tried to switch from energy to beast (to get away when the thing tries to suck you in), tried the recipe that gives you shooting capabilities while in beast form (what's it called?), but that didn't seem to hurt the beast...
Anyway I'm glad to know I'm not the only one here to have had some problems...
I thought with Mithalas, the flashing yellow was a good visual indicator that I wasn't doing damage. Enemies and previous bosses have flashed red when I've damaged them, and it's like that in many other games I've played where bosses are only vulnerable in certain spots.
The disorienting part is the flashing itself. Usually creatures that were not getting hurt by shots where not flashing, and the shots were producing a certain high pitched sound. The fact that it was flashing made it look like it was getting damage, only the fact that it would not change anything after a long time was giving me a hint on the fact that it wasn't.
Also for the mithalas boss, there is a closer save. You actually have to look for it though. Wink
Dissing the controls is a bit weird. You have three different options available to you, and all are accurate.
You can use the mouse only.
You can use the keyboard to move and use the mouse to aim. (just start using the ASDW keys)
You can use a gamepad if you have it.
I have looked for a savespot, but have found none... either it's too hidden, or I'm too dumb to find it.
Oh and btw... I have found a map with all the savespots and all the treasures, but there appears to be no savespot near the mithalas god, apart from the one behind him.
for the controls thing I've probably been accurate enough, I wasn't dissing the controls generally, I only had problems when passing through the spikes before the sun temple boss. There the character would jump quite randomly (often against the spikes)... I did not understand how to control the way she would jump. And again, the big problem: no save spot near the boss...
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Its in the level with the currents.
The cool thing is right at the beginning of the game it tells you that you can find save points using the minimap. :)
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The cool thing is right at the beginning of the game it tells you that you can find save points using the minimap.
yes I know... but if shows only those you have already found.
Look, I know you made this game, and that it feels bad to get critique on it... I know how it is myself, I am a comic artist, and I get a lot of critique myself, people complaining about stories you don't understand or characters that look stupid, or aesthetic choices, that don't work... but because of this I also know that sometimes you need people to tell you things.
I think sometimes you have to try a bit too much to find out stuff in this game, a lot of people will like it exactly because of this, others might not. It's just that.
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I thought with Mithalas, the flashing yellow was a good visual indicator that I wasn't doing damage. Enemies and previous bosses have flashed red when I've damaged them, and it's like that in many other games I've played where bosses are only vulnerable in certain spots.
The disorienting part is the flashing itself. Usually creatures that were not getting hurt by shots where not flashing, and the shots were producing a certain high pitched sound. The fact that it was flashing made it look like it was getting damage, only the fact that it would not change anything after a long time was giving me a hint on the fact that it wasn't.
Flashing always means something. Walls are not flashing, nor are bosses (or part of bosses) that can't get hurt by it. Yellow = something happens, but, alas, not hurting. (In this case he will retreat to the left side of the cave.) Red = It gets hurt.
I have to say, that I died two times on my way through the spikes before the sun worm and not at all in his cave. I didin't found him that hard. There were other bosses where I had more problems. I shot the sunworm, refilled health when necessary, and shot again until it died. And I used the spider roll. :)
And the minimap isn't only showing you the ones you found. Don't click on the map to make it big, look at the map-circle and the small red circle is the next savepoint, the white circles are exits.
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Anyways, I'm sorry the game is too hard for you. I kinda wish everyone could enjoy it, but if we made it so it appealed to the average of everyone's expectations we probably wouldn't like it much ourselves anymore.
I think there are some small things we can change to improve certain areas/puzzles in the game. (the sun temple puzzle is one place where there isn't a very clear hint that you can move the light crystal holder, someone suggested a mural on the background which is a good idea)
But other than some isolated issues, the difficulty feels right to us. Some people will find it too easy and others too hard. But I don't think that means that its "wrong" or "bad". Its kind of like complaining that "Kill Bill" is too violent or something. Its a style, some people like it and some people don't. It would be weird to change the style of the game at this point.
With that said, I still feel the difficulty is fair and that there are many options to get through situations. You're free to leave areas and head elsewhere, stock up and come back. You can use alternate forms/abilities to get past things.
We definitely wanted to make something that people couldn't just "sleep through". I hate that in a lot of modern games. If I don't feel challenged, I'll just lose interest.
But it'd be cool to make a mod that opens the game up for more players who are turned off by being challenged. Simple puzzles and that kind of thing, different storyline. :)
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I think what it comes down to is that many of the people who find this game a bit hard or a little directionless just aren't familiar with similar games that feel the same. I thought Aquaria meshed perfectly with the games it drew most of its inspiration from, and I felt very at home since I'm a fan of those games. While there are elements of difficulty and having to figure out some stuff, it's pretty well grounded for what it is. But it does require thought, it does require having the mindset that you're playing the kind of action/adventure it sets out to be, and there are probably going to be a few points that will stump you or frustrate you until you figure them out. That isn't a good thing for everybody, but it's definitely a good thing for people like me who look for exactly that formula.
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But other than some isolated issues, the difficulty feels right to us.
Just a little comment here. The fact that you feel the difficulty seems right to you is pretty much irrelevant. You made the game, you know how it is supposed to be played, place it in the hands of a random gamer and you'll see (as I expect you did during testing) that they'll do a lot of stuff you never thought of. My brother is a coder himself, and I did some testing for him on occasion, I do not recall a single occasion where I did not found a bug or an issue simply because I did something they never considered.
Aquaria is a bloody good game, that is not the same as saying it is particularly accessible (whether it is easy or hard is irrelevant on this point), which I personally believe will drive off a significant amount of people. Some people will have no issues with it, a lot will have some issues with it, and to a few others the game will simply be frustrating and annoying. The lack of difficulty in modern games, as you point out, is much due to trying to ensure that everyone an enjoy the game (and there are many successful examples), you may try to avoid this, but that means you'll always do niche games.
This is not a critic, I have no issues with what you're doing here (despite the fact that personally I find the game is a bit harder than it should), just me rambling :)
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I'm not saying its accessible or anything. If its less accessible because it doesn't explain itself every step of the way, that's fine with me.
I'm just saying that generally the difficulty is where we want it, not based on our own playthroughs exclusively, but also based on our testers' experiences.
I guess what I'm saying is making the game into step by step "explain everything" bullshit like every mainstream game that comes out, would drive me even further towards suicide.
i.e. Bioshock's PRESS F TO HEAL message that appears constantly. Why not just auto heal at that point? Why not just give me infinite health? Why not just make it a movie and I can just sit on my ass and watch it?
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Thinking about it I guess you're right when you say that this is the game you wanted to make, and you just did it like this. I would have done a different game if I were you, but with the same spirit.
The fact is, I don't really seek challenge in games, I see them more as interactive worlds, or interactive stories... so the problem is certainly mine... just sorry because what I really loved in aquaria is the brilliant atmospheres, and the great artwork.
Oh btw... there's one little critique I'd like to make on that side too, just because I like to bug you :)
If you create an intro movie, make it kick ass! The whole game looks really polished and professional, only the intro looks like it's some homebrew game. I know, most people won't even notice... but still, it's the first thing you see in the game... the one thing that defines the setting of the game itself.
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yeah, I like the intro too, but its cool that you hate it.
i also consider the game to be about an immersive environment and a world, as well as having challenges.
but what do i know.
i can't believe i wasted 2 years of my life working on this crap.
should have just got a job at EA.
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I guess what I'm saying is making the game into step by step "explain everything" bullshit like every mainstream game that comes out, would drive me even further towards suicide.
Heh, we must play different games :)
Accessibility does not mean you have to explain everything (although that is a way), is making sure the player knows how to play. Making them use their abilities in new forms is one way (which is well implemented in Aquaria in many points, but lacking on a few others), the slow and gradual introduction of those same abilities is another.
For instances, when playing Mithala's boss I quickly realized that the poison beings were relevant for beating the boss, what I did not know, nor did it cross my mind, was that I could cast bind on them since it does not work on any other living creature till then except to remove their shell (which they did not had), being able to do that actually went against what I had been "taught" so far.
Or maybe I am just dumb. Your pick :)
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Naw you're right, I'm just stupid.
I think I should quit while I'm behind.
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But yeah, I guess that's the nice thing about working at a big company. They can test everything with 100s of people so everyone can play it, all the bumps are smoothed out. Its kinda stupid to try to make a game with 2 people and think that people could actually enjoy it all the way through.
The other nice thing about a big company is the angry screaming and shit-flinging gets directed at the company itself and not its employees. So you can just work a 9-5 and head home and forget about it. You don't have to deal with people wanting to destroy you on a daily basis.
Also, big companies have teams that actually show up to work. They don't decide to take 3 days off when a game is released and not tell you about it and leave you having to deal with all the work.
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Alec, relax, no one is saying you did a bad job.
I'm well aware Aquaria was a gargantuan job for you guys, and I can imagine how much it annoys you to get so much flak.
However, even more because of that, you need to realize Aquaria is not perfect. People will complain, people are like that, and you need to be ready for it.
Aquaria can be your little baby, but to most folk is just this nice game that happens to have some flaws. Remember that.
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See, that pisses me off even more. I know the game isn't perfect. I never pretended it was perfect. In fact now I hate it more than anything, except myself.
In fact the way you're treating me as if I'm an idiot who can't realize that his own game is worthless shit is really insulting.
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You did everything right. Noone attacks the player who hasn't got the ball.
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In fact the way you're treating me as if I'm an idiot who can't realize that his own game is worthless shit is really insulting.
Actually, I was trying very hard to point out that you weren't an idiot and that the game wasn't shit despite what everyone might say.
I apologize if I passed the wrong impression.
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I dunno, I'd like to feel like we could work to improve stuff with feedback and whatnot. I'd also like to feel at peace with myself and not feel like a total waste of space.
But waking up every morning, checking my email and reading personal threats doesn't encourage me to do those things. It just encourages me to give up.
I'm sorry if I'm sounding stupid/wimpy or something, but I'm at my wit's end I guess.
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Oooook...Alec's getting a little mad. So without further adoo, ESTEEM-BOOSTING-POST!
Man this game is a completely unique experience greater than any of it's ilk since Metroid! The difficulty is compelling and makes me want to accomplish more. The bosses were clever and unique and as I said before the lack of hints made me feel accomplished moreso than any "mainstream" game I've played in years! I liked this game so much that I played it for 3 days straight stopping only for food, and let me tell you, that hasn't happened since RE4. Sure I got frustrated, but I'm easily frustrated! In fact if you don't make a sequel or expansion I'll be sorely dissapointed because I'm starving for more of this game! Keep the good stuff rolling!
On a side-note, I LIKED BIOSHOCK.
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I don't need and I'm not asking for "ego boosting". I'm also not mad at anyone except myself. :)
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On a side-note, I LIKED BIOSHOCK.
I really liked BioShock as well, in terms of the environment. It was a fun game to play through. And it also has a hard mode that probably gets rid of a lot of the silly (as far as I see it) help stuff.
I wasn't really trying to diss BioShock, more just saying in games where there is an overly long tutorial mode or something guiding you everywhere I tend to feel restricted. Obviously its a problem if people can't figure out what they can do to progress, but I feel like those things can be done in a more clever and effective way most times.
Also if a game is too easy, I become lazy and disinterested.
Games I like manage to have enough difficulty without being impossible. I'm thinking of games like FF6 where I'd skip a lot of the battles, but the system was open enough that I could get creative with items and strategy to just barely beat the next boss on a low level. I'd die a couple of times at first, but try some new stuff and eventually find a way to get past - I wasn't required to go gain 10 levels or something.
So I think I wanted to recreate that feel somewhat. I guess that's why I'd call it a "style". Is it a perfect representation of that? I highly doubt it.
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Look Alec, as I said, I know how it is. I know how it is to be spending your whole time working on something, while other people are out there living their lives, spend your days and nights spending hours and hours on perfecting something that will probably never be perfect, and then also getting the shit thrown at you.
But remember that there is one thing that's even worse, doing all this and not getting even noticed.
So you have to call yourself happy, because you did a game, you probably worked a lot and hardy, and no matter if you get all positive feedback or critique, you have been having a lot of it! People are playing your game, some are happy some less, but they all bought it and are playing it.
I'm sorry to have started this whole thing, but on the other side I just said what I thought and I think this is what everybody should be doing in life. Hey, we would all have been hypocrites if we were only saing "Hey Alec, what a great game you made".
It's a great game, but it has some flows... and know what, somebody (can't remember who though) said that if you're able to reach 70% of what was your initial aim, then you can call yourself good!
As far as I can tell, it feels like you got more than 70%.
Take the things I've said for what they are, critiques, from somebody who is not even really in your target audience, but still critiques that might be helpful.
It's still one of your early works, you cannot expect it to be perfect. That's why you need people telling you the things they don't like.
And I don't know who is sending you personal threats... it feels more like everybody loves you here!
The thing about making a game hard is, IMHO, to find out how to make it hard but accessible at the same time. You have a puzzle, when you have the pieces in front of you and you have to figure out how to combine them, when you miss the pieces, and you only see the outcome, solution you have a mystery, and those are far harder to solve.
I absolutely agree with you about what you say about modern games, there's more clever ways than just explain everything. As far as I see, there's some parts where you solved the problem in a really clever way, in others less. But again, you cannot get everything right the first time.
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I see one serious problem with this game. I finished it and it looks like I have to wait for at least two more years til you guys come up with the next one.
But Alec, I think this time you are overreacting a bit. I'm a regular visitor at JayisGames, and every once in a while an idiot post something informative as "this game sucks". These are the kind of guys who should not be taken seriously, as they are probably 15 year old at max and know no shit about what it takes to produce even the simplest enjoyable flash game.
But these two guys here, hanzo and xiagan, are nothing like this. If you are letting off steam because other stupid people's hatemail, it's okay, but it's not their fault, and I think they provided thoughtful, constructive critique, even not sharing the same point of view most of us have about Aquaria.
As for the debate if Aquaria is difficult or not, after playing Eternal Daughter it felt like a cakewalk most of the time. And I was grateful for that because any more difficulty would keep me from enjoying the rich environment of the game. I was frustrated at times that everybody is trying to bite my ass off, but later it was fun to see waters I fled from earlier because I was to wimpy to swim trough them safely. Once I was chased by a horde of nautilus down to the abyss where I realized I have to turn back because I cant see a thing, and face the horde again. Those were great moments of the game.
It's true there are several points where the game gives not enough hints about what to do, but I see this as a design decision, and not as a flaw. Anyone who's bothered could always get help here. But I would reccomend this as only a last chance, because the feeling you get when you figure out something on your own is priceless. One example is the Soulform ability about projectiles. No hint is ever given about it. I see it as a sort of game secret only the pros know, and it's great to have things like that. I remember those days playing Mortal Combat and sharing special moves in school we figured out on our own.
All in all, Alec, calm down, you guys made a great game, and you know it. Don't pretend you don't, cuz I won't believe you.
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ohoh, alec dear, don't be doubt. you ARE on the right way. don't be sad. God protect those who believe in God. obviously you are not God, yeah? :) just take that suggestion if it does good to your work. don't care about those nonsence... threats? shift+del.
you look under stress now....
perfectionism sometimes inspires people, sometimes causes feelings of discouragement. take it easy. :)
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But these two guys here, hanzo and xiagan, are nothing like this. If you are letting off steam because other stupid people's hatemail, it's okay, but it's not their fault, and I think they provided thoughtful, constructive critique, even not sharing the same point of view most of us have about Aquaria.
I guess you mean Xocrates... Difficult with all those X's. ;)
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I really wouldn't worry about people saying it's too hard or hating certain aspects of the game, Alec. People have grown to hate a lot of games because so many games nowadays are shit. I didn't find Aquaria hard at ALL, I only died in areas full of enemies where I tried to kill everything. How many places required you to jump and avoid spikes? That one area in the Sun Temple? Man, that's like complaining about Sonic 1 because you couldn't beat the Labrynth Zone. It's a part of the game, if you can't do it you just suck. That isn't the game's fault.
Nothing in the game was confusing if you just thought about it. Every time I got stuck it was because I didn't try something, the Mithalas boss and the final form of the final boss took the most figuring out and even those took about 10 minutes of trial and error.
Like you said, you can't appeal to everyone. Some people will always find things to pick at. Just be glad about the fact that you have pleased a lot of people, and don't let the ones that can't deal with Aquaria get you down.
scratch that go join ea like everyone else
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scratch that go join ea like everyone else
EA is where its at.
lol
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hey the pay well AND you get total creative freedom.......
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I guess you might still get death threats working there, but they'd probably come from management.
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Life is dear, love is dearer. Both can be given up for freedom.
but what about money or somewhat of safety?
XD
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The cool thing is right at the beginning of the game it tells you that you can find save points using the minimap.
yes I know... but if shows only those you have already found.
The minimap *does* guide you to save points - you know how it shows area exits as white circles? It shows save points as red circles. Note, that's the *mini* map, in the corner of the screen, not the fullscreen map. Those circles give you the general direction of a save point (the game teaches this by talking about how your home is displayed by yellow circles). And the save before the boss is pretty darn close to him. Me, if I reach a boss (and lose) and see there are still areas I haven't explored yet in that dungeon (that aren't blocked by something I can't get past), I go back and do some more exploring. This not only lets you find important things like save points, but you can also stock up on more cooking ingredients, maybe find a recipe or collectible that you may have missed if you beat the boss (as most people will leave a dungeon the moment they've beaten the boss and gotten a new ability).
As for the mithlas boss, I didn't try to kill it by just shooting it, because the first couple major bosses wasn't killed that way (one by singing, the other by luring it into a zapper thing). Took me a bit of time to figure that out on the second boss, but once I did I figured out that all the major bosses were puzzles, and not to be just shot to death. Of course, then the sun boss threw me for a loop :) In the end I just gathered all my healing/defensive items and tried to wear the boss down...and it worked. Yeah, there are a couple tricky spike jumps before it, but only a couple, and if you know you are going to be hurt, just farm up a couple more healing items.
I actually like this game for a couple of the reasons the OP doesn't - the game doesn't give you hints on top of hints on top of hints - it actually lets you think, explore, and experiment and try and figure things out for yourself. Aquaria gives you just enough info to survive in the world, and the rare hint here and there about something that wouldn't be obvious to the player (like the gears in the sun temple), and then lets you go and explore this new world. It's not just mindless "go from point A to point B, attack boss until dead, repeat" This is a reason I've been disliking a few of the recent Metroid games, they continually give you hints, tell you where to go next (marking it on your map), and what to do. You scan a boss and it tells you his weak point. Even Zelda has been getting simpler lately, as, while they don't tell you boss weak points, they make sure the weakness is *ALWAYS* the item you just got in the current dungeon.
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I guess I will post something here:
I really liked Aquaria. And I really think that Aquaria is one of the best and certainly the most ambitious indie games I've played (and I have played a lot of indie games for years now). And I say that even though I have many of the same problems with the game that other people do. I thought that a handful of situations in the game pushed me beyond challenging (which I like) and became frustrating (which I don't like). However, I also realize that that has to be a very, very fine and arbitrary line and I would hate to be a developer trying to determine where that line was. And then I also had a slight problem with direction in the game and I really only had a problem with that in the beginning. What got me on that point was not that I wasn't being led around, but that, when I didn't know where to go or what to do, the sheer number or hostile creatures (some of them particularly powerful) could really hinder my exploration and, especially in the beginning when my character was very weak, exploration was very frustrating for me and not enjoyable because I was having trouble maintaining my health.
With that being said, I was really amazed every moment that I played that so few people had created such a great game. I think it would be very sad if criticism caused you to become discouraged and not continue to work on the game. Right now I consider the game to only be a hair short of falling directly into the ranks of the classic games that it took influence from (and I don't think there is any way that you could have reasonably hoped to fall within the ranks of games like super metroid, at least not in my mind). So, with that being said, I would very much like to see you respond to some of the more prevalent complaints made by the community. You are a indie developer though so I don't guess you're in any way required to listen to the community and if you're perfectly pleased with the game then...fine. The game is your business and not mine. You did a great job with it.
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But the thing is, the complaints are all about stuff that revolve around opinions. Hardly any of them are actual flaws that you can fix without pissing off a lot of people. If they made the game any easier than it already is (ie: pretty damn easy once you get used to the controls) you would alienate a lot of people while pleasing a lot of other people.
Unfortunately it's the old cliché: it's impossible to please everyone. A lot of people are pleased with Aquaria. A lot of people aren't. As with anything, the people that aren't are a lot louder than the people who are.
Introducing stuff like easy mode would be a good idea if it's easy, but if you'd have to go through the entire game and change all the enemies then that's a lot of work. I'm not sure if it'd be worth it.
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I can definitely say one thing: this is the game Alec and Derek wanted to make, and it exceeds all of my expectations. The difficulty, I think, stayed just on this side of the "difficulty horizon". The only times I found myself hitting the forums were times where I incorrectly fell to the strategy that other games had taught me: shoot it till it's dead / if that doesn't work shoot it in the *right spot* until it's dead / if that doesn't work, shoot it at the *right time* until it's dead. The only times that failed me was (1) the Mithalan god and (2) the final boss's final form. (1) was because I hadn't realized that I could even grab the frog things. Maybe if I had thought a bit deeper on Naija's telling of the Mithalans giving it sacrifices and such (was that before or after the boss?), or if there had been some occasion for me to discover that they could be grabbed. (2) confused me because I hadn't thought of using the sun form at all, since I'd not had any use for it besides seeing in the darkness up to that point. Perhaps some sort of "giant eye" monster in the Abyss could have had a similar weakness (say, swinging an armored tentacle around when it saw an attack coming but blinded by a charged flash).
Rather than changing the game at all, I would say that some sort of hint system might be more appropriate. Press a key and a context-sensitive hint pops up, or Naija recalls a memory or thinks out loud or something. That way they aren't spoiling the game for those who want the challenge, but those who are downright stuck could get a push in the right direction. There was something of this when you journeyed into the Abyss without a light and Naija made a comment on it.
Anyway, hitting the forum for help created a sort of community feel to the whole experience which I personally thought was great.
Oh, and Alec: if you're being evenly compared with games that had ten or twenty times as many developers and a (probably) similarly scaled budget, you have no business being disappointed. ;) Especially if you're being compared favorably.
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Style of video games are just like tastes in food....everyone has different likes and dislikes.
I play all sorts of genres of games but have grown bored of the mainstream titles. Since Bioshock was mentioned, this particular title has held about 3 hours of my attention. Bioshock is in no way a bad game but the linear gameplay just doesn't do it for me anymore. Even how Bioshock has amazing visuals and spot on controls, it fails to capture my attention. Everyone is different.
The mithalas boss did have me stumped for quite some time. But I also liked that. Think of it this way: You are exploring the vast ocean in Aquaria. You come across something that seems impassible. Now lets say you try beating the boss a few times and fail. (about 15 deaths for me) And then you actually take a break from the game and think about the problem. This particular gameplay is next to non-existent in games today. Take Call of Duty 4. The second you stopped to look at your surroundings, an mark comes up in your HUD rushing you to go on.
I'm not sure if anyone played Zak & Wiki for the Wii but this game has been an failure in the sales charts because the puzzles make you think. The graphics were too cute to appeal to the mass GTA crowd of gamers and the puzzles were too hard for the gamers who actually picked it up.
Game companies have setup the future of gaming by holding the hand of gamers. It's quite annoying.
On another note, after reading this whole thread, i did not see anyone mention that there is a form in Aquaria that is resistant to spikes.....it makes it a lot easier (like 100% easier) to get to the sun temple boss.
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Wait....WHAT!? What form is that!?
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Just think of the form that can CREATE spikes.
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Nature <3 I almost posted something about that earlier, actually, but forgot. :) I really really like the Nature form, even if she doesn't really have a "real" direct attack.
Happy playing ;)
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Of course, then the sun boss threw me for a loop :) In the end I just gathered all my healing/defensive items and tried to wear the boss down...and it worked.
Snap.
The Sun Boss was the only one where I asked for help here. I was sure I was missing some sort of trick like the ones used to beat the previous bosses. As it turned out I just suck at being patient and at dodging! A few healing items and spicy rolls later and I was on my way.
I didn't find the difficulty too steep. Of course puzzle wise I've been brought up on a diet of Lucas Arts adventure games, so the age old tactics of "if logical thinking fails you explore EVERYWHERE and use EVERY ability on EVERYTHING until you get the answer" are well ingrained in my gaming style! That said I didn't have to resort to them too often, I personally though most of the puzzles and boss strategies made sense, even if a couple took me a bit longer to figure out.
Plus as someone else mentioned it was fun to return to the areas which you ran through panicking in the early game desperate to get to the next save point as you were being chased by a bunch of sea creatures out to get you(providing a nice fun challenge early on in the game) to being a breeze later on when you had all the forms and were more adept at controlling Naija effectively. Then the challenge came in the depths of the abyss and the body.
That's the way things should be, the areas that were a challenge earlier become easier as new more challenging areas open up. It's something games like the Zelda series and Outcast (have to mention it as it's the most underrated game ever!) did exceptionally well and Aquaria more or less got it right.
The other thing I feel Aquaria got right was the rewards being worth the challenge. The first time I used beast form to eat something after the Mithalas boss, I just thought "WOW awesome. Beating that boss was totally worth it." Same went for finally getting the Urchin helmet (it was a really handy item in the early stages).
So yeah Aquaria isn't for everyone, but is any game?
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But yeah, I guess that's the nice thing about working at a big company. They can test everything with 100s of people so everyone can play it, all the bumps are smoothed out. Its kinda stupid to try to make a game with 2 people and think that people could actually enjoy it all the way through.
There'll always be bugs and things wrong with *Any* game - None are perfect, and none should ever claim to be. Everyone wants something different and bigger companies are more or less often limited to pleasing the majority: With indie games you can please whoever you want with the game, ideally starting with yourself
The other nice thing about a big company is the angry screaming and shit-flinging gets directed at the company itself and not its employees. So you can just work a 9-5 and head home and forget about it. You don't have to deal with people wanting to destroy you on a daily basis.
I dunno, I'm sure Peter Molyneux, Will Wright and that lot get their fair share of "Zomg! Teh Sims is lawlgeh!", but granted when you put names to a company suddenly there becomes some unshielded entity to attack and blame for things they don't like.
Usually they're called PR people :D
Also, big companies have teams that actually show up to work. They don't decide to take 3 days off when a game is released and not tell you about it and leave you having to deal with all the work.
Always remember big companies consist of human beings too y'know :p WIth their own needs and personalities. Granted they're expected to act within a bit of proffessionalism but nobody is perfect.
Getting back to the topic, Often a game does many things wrong but at least get's 1 or 2 things right. While I don't agree with Aquaria's often vague puzzles/boss battles (Heck, I've gone through the Myst series sans any walkthrough and i still had trouble here :P), I had the same problem with some of the puzzles from the Monkey Island series and that didn't stop me loving the games (Except Monkey Kombat. It can go to hell...)
Point is: while there are a few flaws with Aquaria, there are flaws with every game. The only thing I could recommend for some of the more complex bosses is a few hints from Naija - If the player hasn't done any damage what-so-ever, you could throw out a "This isn't working... Maybe I should try..." after a few minutes. A couple've points I'm noticing are quite popular for confusion are the Eye-Monsters in the Cathedral, Mithala, The Final Boss's 5th form, Li, and a bit of navigation. But again this is up to you: If you want more people to enjoy your game, a hint system'll help.
Ahh Outcast. It to had a hidden dance track featuring voice samples from the game :p I'd almost say that's mandatory in games now...
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See, that pisses me off even more. I know the game isn't perfect. I never pretended it was perfect. In fact now I hate it more than anything, except myself.
In fact the way you're treating me as if I'm an idiot who can't realize that his own game is worthless shit is really insulting.
You're joking right? You have to be kidding. Aquaria is awesome. If you aren't kidding, then you really should seek professional help and get on some kind of medication.
Oh, and I don't think Aquaria is too difficult. It's refreshing to play a game that doesn't treat me like an imbecile.
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I guess what I'm saying is making the game into step by step "explain everything" bullshit like every mainstream game that comes out, would drive me even further towards suicide.
i.e. Bioshock's PRESS F TO HEAL message that appears constantly. Why not just auto heal at that point? Why not just give me infinite health? Why not just make it a movie and I can just sit on my ass and watch it?
So ' what you are saying' is that it's bullshit to go through things step-by-step? Some points of interest here:
1 - What do you find mainstream? Since this is an indie game, every non-indie game would be. Yet BioShock isn't even as much mainstream as, for example, the Orange Box. BioShock is perhaps the underdog of the year.
2 - When is it 'step by step'? As far as I can remember --once again refering to your BioShock remark-- the actual game (as in - after the demo ended) didn't have too much of that. When you ger near certain items it'd appear on screen, but what's the harm in that?
3 - There is a difference between step-by-step (the Aquaria demo contains a walkthrough, which is step-by-step, just fyi) and a game that shows the controls and/or goals on-screen if you need them (Unreal used that, Half-Life used that, Gears of War used that, Morrowind used that etc. etc.) You can either skip (Morrowind) or ignore (the rest) that. It'd be step-by-step if you can't proceed any futher without first looking left, then looking right, zooming in, then out etc. As if it'd was a tutorial.
4 - Saying 'bullshit like every other mainstream game' isn't going to do you any good as an indie developer.
My main point - it wouldn't hurt to not shoot everything with a shotgun this soon. Letting people speak may be a chance to --let's say-- improve things. But that's just me living in a country that allows freedom of speech.
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you know what guys... you convinced me!
I'll give it another try.
I guess that uninstalling it was a bit of an overreaction, too much stress lately, too much work, though that doesn't mean I have changed my mind on the things I had to complain about in the beginning.
I still think it's worth discussing about it (discussing, not accusing).
In the end, I'm dreaming of it by night... and that certainly means that the good things in it still overweight the bad ones... and probably by far... ::)
There is one thing that made me think, in all this discussion. Actually, the fact that a lot of us had to consult this forum to get some clues on how to solve a problem, or kill a boss, created really some kind of second level of experience in the game... something I hadn't considered earlier... One one hand probably a game shouldn't rely too much on a support forum, on the other hand, the fact that this whole thing started, more or less, on a spontaneous basis, makes it very sympathetic to me.
And to end this mess, one thing has to be said. It's always easy to express one self in a stupid and wrong way and it's always easy to get misunderstood. Of course a title like "Why I like this game but de-installed it" is prone to be taken as "very negative". But believe me, I never wanted to say that Aquaria is a bad game. In fact I think, and I always thought, that it was a great game... maybe a bit difficult to understand (to understand not to play), maybe a bit difficult for me in this period of my life (but that's my problem), but still a great game. I just wanted to discuss some matters I found being an issue in the game, and apparently I wasn't the only one.
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and btw...
(http://www.gasteropodica.net/hannes/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/xmasman.jpg)
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I guess what I'm saying is making the game into step by step "explain everything" bullshit like every mainstream game that comes out, would drive me even further towards suicide.
i.e. Bioshock's PRESS F TO HEAL message that appears constantly. Why not just auto heal at that point? Why not just give me infinite health? Why not just make it a movie and I can just sit on my ass and watch it?
So ' what you are saying' is that it's bullshit to go through things step-by-step? Some points of interest here:
Well, I think "step-by-step bullshit" is sort of the wrong term to use for what Alec is describing. I would call it "hold-the-player's-hand-and-feed-him-gameplay-with-the-spoon-so-he-never-has-to-think-for-himself bullshit"
And yes, that is bullshit. Aquaria has a walkthrough for the very introductory area, just so that players can get used to the mode of thought and puzzle solving that it takes to get through the game. And, for what it's worth, it does nudge you in the right direction when a goal comes round. Like right at the beginning, it tells you that Naija feels a strong urge to explore -- which is your prime directive throughout the game. Don't know what to do? Explore and you'll find the answer.
And when you find something important, it lets you know what to do with it, or how to work it. Almost a return to the days when all games had in the way of telling people how to play were instruction manuals. You read the manual to see what buttons did what things, and then you played the game to figure out what things to do at what times. Aquaria is kind of like that. And while it isn't totally perfect in every way ever concieved by man in which a video game could be perfect, the way it handles telling you what to do would be the absolute bottom on my check list of things to improve.
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Aquaria made me want to put my head through a wall several times (Sun Temple boss, I'm looking at YOU)...
But I like that in a game. I like being 'stuck' on a boss, or having an area be too hard to tackle without a good deal of skill and/or Tasty Cakes :D.
Good job, Alec, I think the difficulty is one of the best parts about the game. I beat it and felt accomplished afterwards, which hasn't happened to me in a long time.
Bioshock, for example, had a bloody TERRIBLE ending from a gameplay perspective. Serious, WTF.
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aquaria is great overall, some minor things could be fixed ofcourse... a few of the arguments here are good, others not soo good.
some say its too hard, that is bullshit. Too hard for what? completing the game in 3 hours, yes, so what.
Everything isnt supposed to be easy
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some say its too hard, that is bullshit. Too hard for what? completing the game in 3 hours, yes, so what.
Everything isnt supposed to be easy
Thank you for taking a relative concept such as difficulty and making it an absolute. Now everything makes perfect sense.
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Maybe we have to say this game isn't meant for everybody... If you like shooting and action more than using brain cells, well... I played this game whole lotta time and it was like a remedy to me. I mean - most of modern games are way to easy, and there's nothing more frustrating than the game telling you what to do in different situations. I want to play a game that gives a freedom of choice and moves, not a one which tells me what I should do or was supposed to do in each situation. We were teached how to play on games which were just to plain simple, and thats the problem. Aquaria is a difficult game, indeed. Now we can see what happens when a guy, who was playing those mainstream games for quite a bit of time gets his fingers on Aquaria.
This game wasn't meant to bring lots of $$$ to the developers, like the normal games. It was meant to be created for people like us, to bring us fun and challenge at the same time. The problem is most of mainstream game developers are afraid of making their games really hard and intuitive, because the title won't sell properly. People love easy things nowadays. But this can be a real problem when it comes to Aquaria, when you have to think how to kill for e.g. the sun temple boss because good ol' shooting isn't enough an the worm kills you in seconds...
I don't know what to say. It's not our fault and it's not Aquaria's. Maybe we should blame the mainstream developers for creating such easy games ;)
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Now we can see what happens when a guy, who was playing those mainstream games for quite a bit of time gets his fingers on Aquaria.
and who would that person be? If I may ask...
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and who would that person be? If I may ask...
It's not You, Hanzo... I'm just saying in general.
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and who would that person be? If I may ask...
It's not You, Hanzo... I'm just saying in general.
Yet, it's no surprise that Aquaria is based on quite a few famous mainstream games (even if it was just slightly), and blends it all together;
Metroid, Morrowind/Oblivion - Non-linair (sort of, not as much as Aquaria) - the player is allowed to go where he/she wants to go.
Odin Sphere - The 2D-graphics, making limbs move seperated from the main body
Ecco the Dolphin - Swimming in a big ocean
Max Payne, BioShock, PlaneScape Torment - Who are you, why are you here and what's the meaning of all this? The story of the character is unclear and will unfold as you play the game.
When you blend all this together, you get Aquaria -- as we all know. It's clear to say that these elements are not what sets the game appart from the mainstream games. I think the difficulty is. Now I don't mind difficulty in a game, but let's take a look at one of the hardest RPGs on the Nintendo DS - Etrain Odyssee. How many people like that game? It's a select group of gamers that enjoy it, because the rest can't be bothered with the difficulty. And how many people play for example, let's say, Diablo on the Hell-difficulty? Once again a select group of player does.
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It's not You, Hanzo... I'm just saying in general.
fiu... just beacuse, if there's one thing I am not, that is a mainstream gamer! :D
Anyway... the fact that this game might appeal only to a small group of people is yet to be seen. And you also have to count the fact that Aquaria probably has not the wide distribution as some mainstream x-box titles, and has not thousands of posters sticked on every game store wall. I think Aquaria could appeal to far more people than those who play it right now, if they only knew. Maybe one had to do iron out some wrinkles, work a bit on some details... but I don't think Aquaria is such a specific hardcore-gamers-only product.
It is very hard in some points, but that is all concentrated on the bosses I think, and as far as I have seen, it's all about the Mythalas and the Sun Temple boss. The rest is not so difficult.
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I'm neither a mainstream, nor an indie gamer. I am just a gamer...gamer. I play as many games as I can get my hands on (provided they arn't pieces of shit, as so many sell-out games are. I'm looking at YOU Hollywood.). Having played many of the "mainstream" games as well as several less-known games, one post above mentioned Odin Sphere, I can say that Aquaria is not set apart by it's difficulty.
There are only a few things that distinguish an indie game from a mainstream one. One of which is a noticable affect of lessened funds. You can tell Aquaria wasn't made by a big company because it has that touch of personal attachment in it's art that just shows you that nobody was working towards another man's goal. And as such none of the art feels as impersonal. But that's both good and bad because a big company can make shit look really GOOD.
Also, the individuality and uniqueness of the gameplay that suggests it was made from scratch without pre-existent notions in place is a tell-tale indie game. Whenever you see a mainstream game it's usually a game that's been made before, but with tweaks. Not with an indie game tho, indie games are very much "not done before".
And thirdly, an indie game isn't working towards a deadline. It's not often in an indie game that you see material that was "left out because we didn't have time." Bioshock had that. So did alot of other recently released games. When you have a steadfast release date and lots of red tape to wade through it's difficult to make a game as complete as you would like. I remember in KotOR II they had to cut out TWO PLANETS to get it out before Christmas a few years ago. That pissed me off. Games like Aquaria just feel more COMPLETE.
But Aquaria stands out in the fact that it's not short or unpolished like some independently created games are. Look at all the cool indie games in Xbox Arcade. Games like Geometry Wars that are just Arcade games. No story, no depth, no epic quality. Just fun gameplay. Aquaria is a massive project which has all the completeness of an indie game, all the length and depth of a big-budget game, and all the love that you see when an artist takes pride in his work. Aquaria may have been made independently but it really feels like a full-fledged game in the ilk of Odin Sphere. But even that's not a good comparison. Odin Sphere used repeated missions and bosses to artificially lengthen it's gameplay, something I did not like. Aquaria did NO SUCH THING. It is ALL UNIQUE. There was NO part of Aquaria that made me repeat the same thing twice. NOT ONCE. And couple that with the length and scale of the world, and the tremendous atmoshpere and you've got a game that you couldn't POSSIBLY duplicate with a big budget. Aquaria would have been truncated and impersonalized by a big company and if you two devs EVER outsource the Aquaria franchise I for one will be dissapointed. And so will others I think. So please please PLEASE don't feel like your work is anything short of EXTRAORDINARY. Because that's exactly what it is. Flaws and all.
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Topic change ftw! :D
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fiu... just beacuse, if there's one thing I am not, that is a mainstream gamer! :D
:D
Damn, I just accidentaly wasted my reply :/ Why computers do have still one clipboard :D Anyways, Ill try to rewrite everything I'd liked to say.
Anyway... the fact that this game might appeal only to a small group of people is yet to be seen. And you also have to count the fact that Aquaria probably has not the wide distribution as some mainstream x-box titles, and has not thousands of posters sticked on every game store wall. I think Aquaria could appeal to far more people than those who play it right now, if they only knew. Maybe one had to do iron out some wrinkles, work a bit on some details... but I don't think Aquaria is such a specific hardcore-gamers-only product.
It is very hard in some points, but that is all concentrated on the bosses I think, and as far as I have seen, it's all about the Mythalas and the Sun Temple boss. The rest is not so difficult.
We can say Aquaria would never be the same as a mainstream game, but I don't think it loses something because of that ;). Maybe the only two problems are that authors just lose somewhat bigger profits because of this (let's be honest, it's every game's final point), and most of players who would be greatly appreciated to play Aquaria, will never know such a game ever existed. But it's just all about indie games are. But we rather love this, don't we? Because of this game is somewhat a bit special. I would personally call indie game developing rather a hobby, than a normal job (but the heck, it's a job ;)). but it's the greatest hobby ever meant to be created, no matter the cons...
Getting back to the hard stuff. Basically, Aquaria's just based on thinking in situations other games teached to shoot. I loved every single situation, where there was a "dead end" feeling, and I didn't knew what to do next. But I figured out fast there are a lots of clues set everywhere in the Aquaria's underwater world, and it isn't that hard to cope with them after all, so they became really helpful. Aquaria isn't that kind of a shitty game, where there's required nothing more than a quick trigger to finish the game. And because of this, some people might get dissapointed or even start to hate the game. It's normal :'(
Hehe, and one more thing - We can say that Bioshock is a underdog. In fact, he is - he's an underdog mainstream game :D
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If bioshock is an underdog, why has everyone I know but me played it?
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Personally, I think that for bosses that are immune to normal hits, there should be an audible sound, like a "tink" of something hitting impenetrable armor or something.
Because if it flashes, I figured I'd hurt it. I didn't actually realize there were different colored flashes until I read this topic.