Hey, we have forums!

Author Topic: Random Thoughts...  (Read 23125 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Glamador

  • Hero Bit
  • *********
  • Posts: 846
    • View Profile
Re: Random Thoughts...
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2008, 06:39:34 pm »
But alpha, I'm only talking about the map.  You make NOTES about games?  Besides, I don't have a pencil and paper on-hand.  I would have to get some out of my backpack.  And that's too much work.  Besides, that causes clutter, wastes paper, and like I said before, notes on the map are just CONVENIENT.  It would work just like in PH, you could mark down the location of things quickly without having to try and describe it to yourself (as you would on pencil and paper) and you could mark down the songs that arn't on your list for easy reference.  Like the whale song.  I don't know why you're so strongly insisting on pencil & paper when there are clearly more benefits to the notes being actually ON the map.

This...game...ROCKS!
My Smash Bros. Brawl "Smash Card": http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a43/Glamador/WolfSignature.jpg

Offline Xiagan

  • Global Moderator
  • Dream Bit
  • **********
  • Posts: 1452
  • "Does absolution lie above the waves?"
    • View Profile
Re: Random Thoughts...
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2008, 07:00:28 pm »
You haven't written the whale song, for example, down?
"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis." (Laplace)

~ www.xiagan.net ~

Offline inkblob

  • Super Bit
  • ********
  • Posts: 403
    • View Profile
    • blobfarm.com
Re: Random Thoughts...
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2008, 11:40:59 pm »
*looks at paper note on beside keyboard*

Quote from: paper notes
whale song ( and symbols )

symbols for what octopus sings and the colours below

a whole bunch of symbols written down trying to figure out the ghost song sequence

a small map of the fish cave and the symbols in each one

some song notes, have no idea what they are for ( vertical leaf, circle, teardrop and star? )

some places that I had to check out still ( invincible bug in grotto, toy in city, whale song, sun temple by crystal, jelly bouncy things, sing to critters )

Mithalis entrance sing to tadpoles based on eye colour
building top right 3 leaves
spicey meat Mithalis pink seaslug  ( sort of random there huh )


I played a lot of text adventures and other puzzle games ( Myst, Neverhood, etc ) so having pen and paper beside me gaming was just an extension of the game.  if the game didn't have a built in notebook ( like Dungeon Siege, one of the best auto notebooks I've seen ) then I'd just improvise.

I agree AS that a very limited amount of icons would be best. it would probably hamper game performance if there was too many on the screen as well, and you would really only need x amount.  possibly something like 5 different icons in 4 different colours.
Ellie: Are they from the future too?
Sawyer: You told her?

Offline Alphasoldier

  • Dream Bit
  • **********
  • Posts: 1810
  • Zero Suit!
    • View Profile
Re: Random Thoughts...
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2008, 12:58:55 am »
Thank you thank you than you thank you inkblob!
I also take alot of notes, I always have a pen and paper around SOMEwhere, just if I find something interesting, stuff I have to remind and other things.. Seeing you said that I can come out clear too. =p
My mind is made with holes, alot of things in my memory just go through it, making me forget, which is why stuff like a notepad is handy for remembering such things. And I'm not the only one, not everyone has a photographic memory and the simplest thing is just to grab a pencil and paper, not to go to a forum and start asking stuff from the creators that you can do too.
/rant

Anyway, nothing personal, only put myself to shame there and my mind's kind of sleepy, I should get sleep.
I just still think pen and paper is better then nagging about extra options. That's just the way it is~
God sees and knows everything, but at least he won't gossip about it.

Offline Gnerma

  • Bit
  • ***
  • Posts: 22
    • View Profile
Re: Random Thoughts...
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2008, 03:06:10 am »
Every criticism of this game I've seen on these boards have been very constructive. This is the kind of thing a good artist loves to hear, and is all part of the ongoing dialog between those who create and the people who pay for and consume their work.

I think we're having all these threads about the mapping system because it does a few odd things that if either one were more transparent, the other would be largely irrelevant. The first one is the lack of "fog of war" progress tracked on all areas. We all know that this is a technical problem in the game as of this writing, but if implemented you could glance at the map and know where you had been. If, say you'd obtained an ability and we're looking for places that you were previously blocked from, this would narrow down where those barriers might be immensely.

Second, the game already has a discovery based icon system but it's used in a way that doesn't make much sense. It tells you where a boss was after you've beaten it, and found memories but I don't see why you'd really need to know that other than not to wander down that way again. Perhaps these are meant as check marks of a sort. It also marks some ability based barriers like the nature form "blue dome" shortcuts but not others, like blue crystals, darkness, and impassable currents.

If either of these things we're as suggested, these threads probably wouldn't exist and the map system would not be mentioned as a strike against the game in any of the reviews. As it is, it's in almost all of them.

Paper is good for things like inkblot listed, but when you want to notate something like where a blue crystal is located, things get a lot more involved. You either end up drawing a map, which would be difficult and time consuming in a game like this or you give yourself directions that probably make a lot of sense when you write them, but may not make so much when you try to follow them 10 hours of gameplay later.

Some form of manual map notation system would in no way take away from the experience, and would be more in line with modern game design conveniences. Marking the map up yourself is fun and very satisfying when it pays off. For some it would be even more fun than wandering around later on trying to find the x or y that you recall seeing. But if you prefer that, you wouldn't have to use it. It's an excellent compromise.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2008, 03:13:55 am by Gnerma »

Offline Alec

  • Administrator
  • Dream Bit
  • **********
  • Posts: 2211
    • View Profile
Re: Random Thoughts...
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2008, 04:07:31 am »
Writing on the map doesn't really make sense at this point. You already have a marker system, its just that people are raving mad because it doesn't mark certain things.

Having moving markers didn't make sense because if we added it, (like say a bunch of rock markers that you could use) people would be like: wtf... why doesn't it just auto-place all the rocks for me when I pass them?

Adding something like markers for blue crystals would be easily done and fit into the current system. Why add a complicated map notation system, if the current one could be easily adjusted to mark more things, if that's what the problem really is.

Offline Gnerma

  • Bit
  • ***
  • Posts: 22
    • View Profile
Re: Random Thoughts...
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2008, 04:19:42 am »
I suggested that as a compromise between the the two sides of this argument. I understand it would probably be too much work to be worth it at this point. Adding stuff to the current discovery based icon system would solve the problem, but I'm assuming there were reasons you have it mark some things and not others. In the case of the blue crystals, I thought you may have intended the player to not give them much thought until the ability to make use of them is unlocked. And when you do get that ability part of the fun and exploratory spirit of the game would be finding them again out of vague recollection of seeing them, or notes you might have made. If they're all marked on the map when you do get that ability, visiting them all might feel more like going down a checklist than exploration.

(I know I don't need to say this, but I'm afraid I'm sounding like a smart ass about this whole thing.) You're the game designer, bro. If you don't thing any changes need be made then don't make any. It's your game and it's very fun and playable as it is.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2008, 12:13:13 pm by Gnerma »

Offline Alec

  • Administrator
  • Dream Bit
  • **********
  • Posts: 2211
    • View Profile
Re: Random Thoughts...
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2008, 04:33:04 am »
Yeah, there were certain things that didn't feel necessary to add. But then everyone's like "the map system sucks!". So I'm trying to figure out exactly what could be done that would actually improve the game, and I don't really see any clear solution yet.

In terms of the blue crystals, exactly it keeps them more mysterious if they're kept off the map. The Spirit form was never explained with hints and was always meant as an optional form for finding some secret areas and an alternate way to beat some things.

I think maybe the boss for the Spirit form is a bit too easy.

A drawing-on-the-map feature would be cool, but its like... what does it add at this point. Would it make the game better or would it conflict with what's there.

It might make sense if you took everything out of the game and had the player draw everything... but then we'd get reviews complaining about how the map system "forces" you to work too hard. (like the reviews complaining about writing on the map in Zelda DS, which I thought was a lot of fun)

Having both seems a bit weird to me, for some reason.

Offline inkblob

  • Super Bit
  • ********
  • Posts: 403
    • View Profile
    • blobfarm.com
Re: Random Thoughts...
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2008, 09:39:13 am »
Yeah, there were certain things that didn't feel necessary to add. But then everyone's like "the map system sucks!". So I'm trying to figure out exactly what could be done that would actually improve the game, and I don't really see any clear solution yet.

In terms of the blue crystals, exactly it keeps them more mysterious if they're kept off the map. The Spirit form was never explained with hints and was always meant as an optional form for finding some secret areas and an alternate way to beat some things.

I think maybe the boss for the Spirit form is a bit too easy.


it would be great if you could get away with no instructions at all. just here's the game, figure it out.  those sorts of games are great but not for mass appeal, it's a niche group who enjoys amnesia and a mystery toolbox.

I sort of feel spirit form was under utilized, and that's only because the game is so stuffed and realized. when I got spirit form initially, and her shuddering apprehension I initially thought it might open up a ghost level or she would ~ see dead people ~   
it seemed mostly to be the blue key with a couple of easter eggs. I had no idea anything was optional and my ADD won't let me leave any stoned unturned ( or unbound ) so wouldn't have not got spirit form because it wasn't necessary. there were treasures to get, and some of those treasures might do stuff!  the couple of things that you could do in spirit form I found out after I finished the game and looking through threads, but really can't see how it would help in either instance really. 

stuff happening with the actual ghosts, a spirit map, something to do with stopping time for strategy, like a room with crystals here and there and some crazy badass boss who you have to attack from behind. NOT that I'm complaining, it just seemed to be a vestigial form compared to others. 

with the map, I had no real problem with it during play. I didn't know about zooming and dragging until quite far through which was pretty helpful.  I'd sooner see the blue crystals be added manually then auto added like the nature hatch portals for your reasoning being they are mysterious.  you can add them if you want, but to auto add them takes away from them. they were there before mapping technology or something  ;)  if there was a manual icon drop feature I'd definitely use it, but it didn't detract from the game not having it there at the same time.  I don't think writing on the map would look very nice, it would take on a football playboard look and take away from the aesthetic imho
Ellie: Are they from the future too?
Sawyer: You told her?

Offline Alphasoldier

  • Dream Bit
  • **********
  • Posts: 1810
  • Zero Suit!
    • View Profile
Re: Random Thoughts...
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2008, 12:14:11 pm »
Yeah, that's the only thing I don't get, why YES on the bulbs and NO on the blue crystals?

Because the spirit form is optional?

And inkblob, the spirit form can absorb projectiles from enemies and gain health from it after you got 5 projectiles.

It IS very handy.
God sees and knows everything, but at least he won't gossip about it.

Offline Gnerma

  • Bit
  • ***
  • Posts: 22
    • View Profile
Re: Random Thoughts...
« Reply #25 on: February 03, 2008, 12:22:33 pm »
I would personally love a map that doesn't mark anything unless you do it yourself, but I agree it would be a rather "hard line" move that not everybody would be happy with.

Like I said above it's not just one thing about the map that causes raised eyebrows, it breaks down in a few different ways that stack on top of one another. If you could somehow figure out the performance issues behind the complete "fog of war" rendering, and make the change in a future patch, I think that would get people off your nuts about this whole thing.

Offline Alphasoldier

  • Dream Bit
  • **********
  • Posts: 1810
  • Zero Suit!
    • View Profile
Re: Random Thoughts...
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2008, 12:28:17 pm »
Yeah, I still think that it should be possible when you click on a certain part of a map it shows up how the fog of war is, but then again, it has to load that map for all as I know. And you being in another map doesn't help, so you could have it load next to you or something, but that would take a lot of memory, lag and hell I know more.

Further, I think a emptied map with your own icons would be a ok idea, but the only problem is is that the map now already has icons for the most part, you can't just downgrade a game.
God sees and knows everything, but at least he won't gossip about it.

Offline KingAl

  • Extra Bit
  • *****
  • Posts: 138
  • Nobody expects...
    • View Profile
Re: Random Thoughts...
« Reply #27 on: February 08, 2008, 03:06:09 am »
<snip>
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 06:41:25 am by KingAl »

Offline inkblob

  • Super Bit
  • ********
  • Posts: 403
    • View Profile
    • blobfarm.com
Re: Random Thoughts...
« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2008, 07:16:50 pm »
Yeah, that's the only thing I don't get, why YES on the bulbs and NO on the blue crystals?

Because the spirit form is optional?

And inkblob, the spirit form can absorb projectiles from enemies and gain health from it after you got 5 projectiles.

It IS very handy.

I tried this in a pretty projectile intensive area and found it sort of helpful. in those situations I dodge the heat seeking projectiles by doing a loop and having them crash into a projectile ( or ideally a bound rock ) and take out the offending critter. I can see this being more useful with poison darts which seem to hit me more than plain old vanilla projectiles, or I just notice them a lot more.  you get beast form before spirit form and she is how I've always racked up health, but it's nice to know a different way  :)   besides the race, I can't think of any practical use for stopping time tho.
Ellie: Are they from the future too?
Sawyer: You told her?

Offline Xiagan

  • Global Moderator
  • Dream Bit
  • **********
  • Posts: 1452
  • "Does absolution lie above the waves?"
    • View Profile
Re: Random Thoughts...
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2008, 07:29:19 pm »
Yeah, that's the only thing I don't get, why YES on the bulbs and NO on the blue crystals?

Because the spirit form is optional?

That's it. It is a hidden thing like the memories you don't need to beat the game. It is not supposed to be easy to find the additional things you can reach with it. :)
"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis." (Laplace)

~ www.xiagan.net ~