Steam?

[Windburn]

And your comments bely your ignorance of all the rights you're slowly giving up.  I'm well aware of what Steam is capable of, and I'm also well aware of the moves it's helping the industry make.  I never said that Steam is strictly a form of DRM, I said it's a crappy service that restricts the use of many of its products which would otherwise be free of said restrictions if the product were purchased elsewhere.  I won't even get into the numerous problems the program has caused me in my time with it, because that would obviously be a waste of my time.  I've said all I need to, I have no desire to say any more.

Heh, I hate to say it...but Quemaqua, you're a naysayer with a chip on your shoulder!
I see Steam as the logical polar opposite to traditional DRM- purchasing a product on Steam gives you the right to install it on other computers, it gives you the right to download it as many times as you please, the right to back up your data to cd/dvd/hdd, whatever happens, as the purchase is tied explicitly to your account. There are also less obvious rights, such as that which Valve has said from day 1; if ever the Steam medium needs to be shutdown (though judging by their remarkable success, this is very, very unlikely) they have 1 routine to run and all of your applications become immediately unlocked from the Steam account.

So, I fail to see in what form Steam is restricting my rights? Sounds like the rhetoric of a liberalist biting his own tail to me. Or a prospective pirate.

Granted, Steam used to cause many, many problems, and those new to the medium can't appreciate some of the turmoil we all went through in its first 2 years of implementation...but I'd have to say in the last 12 months particularly, it has been extremely stable. I've not had 1 problem or issue with it, and have been through a number of activity-bombarded "launch" unlocks without sweat. I can vouch for 95% of my steam friends network too; I had to talk 1 person through how to refresh his steam cache, and that's -IT-.

And one cannot even talk about the benefits to the developers. Instant access to, what was the last count? 13 million active users.

I really hope Valve comes through for Aquaria, and that Steam is taken up. Anyway, fingers crossed on my part!

[Johnny Boy]

Personally I'm not a big fan of Steam.  I think it's a mess.  Not that they aren't providing a large amount of downloads for people, but I don't like the idea of having a separate app running in the background while I play my game when there's no need for it.  Some people don't care, and that's fine it's all a matter of opinion but aside from that I still find the service a bit messy.  I don't really like the layout of it all.   I realize Steam has a lot of mainstream games, but once again I choose not to play my games with additional apps that HAVE to be loaded in the background...  seems unreasonable to me, but again that's my preference and opinion on the matter.  Personally I prefer buying straight from the Indie developer and if need be I'd buy off of Manifesto, ArcadeTown, or Reflexive before I'd choose Steam.  When I enjoy a game I prefer to support the developer as much as possible so 95% of the time I purchase it straight through their site.  The other times are when I'm interested in two games by two different devs and both games happen to be on a site that distributes indie games.  That's when I'll just buy the two games straight from the one site so that I don't have to fork over my CC numbers more than I have to (but I normally don't go and buy two different indie titles on the exact same day and when I do they're usually games that were made by the same developer).

On a side note, the only real recommendation I have for all indie developers is that they pair up with an e-commerce that provides not only credit card payments but also accepts PayPal since people can use their Credit or Debit cards through the service AND it's safer than giving your numbers out to numerous sites (even though most of them are reputable).  I just think it's an added convenience and PayPal and the buyers payments are protected.

Anyway, that's my two cents...   

Johnny

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www.i-luv-games.com

[Sfiera]

With due respect, I think we should consider this topic closed. There are people who like Steam and there are people who do not; Bit-Blot seems to be happy to cater to both parties.

[Alec]

Keep talking. Its interesting to read what everyone has to say.

[Johnny Boy]

Well since Alec has given the green light  , I was really not trying to dissuade or persuade the guys at Bit-Blot or coach them into making one decision or another, I was just trying to get the point across as to why I personally don't like Steam. 
I have a big problem with being forced to have one app running in the background just so I can use another, I think many would agree that there are enough mysterious background apps running (in Windows) at all times.  Having one more app may not seem like much but to me it's just as annoying as lets say -- Spyware.

In regards to what Alec and Derek should do in this situation or other dealings with distribution and finances, I think they should listen to the public but not necessarily agree with them.  What I mean by that is they already have their own views, principles, and priorities.  I think they should stick with what they find important to them and if they do come across useful information they should somehow incorporate it into their ideals but ultimately they should stick with what they feel to be right.  Doesn't always mean it's the best choice but then there's no blame or finger pointing when the day is done and they can feel confident that their decisions were their own.  It's one of the few things that the indie developer can keep for themselves but is sometimes forgotten.  A lot of people would say that expanding and distributing with and through everything and everyone would be great to make a lot of money and a quick buck.  Personally I think it's more important to develop and create something you love, make it as good as possible, and then try to sell it (case and point, exactly what Bit-Blot is doing).   Aquaria is already widely popular among indie fans and has accumulated a lot of good PR.  I really don't think it would be necessary to go through other distributors or portals yet because that option will always be there later on anyway (just look at games like Gish and Mr. Robot).  Lastly, Bit-Blot has an excellent opportunity with the popularity that they have already gained to keep as much creative control as they want while becoming increasingly popular through alternative media and word of mouth.  As an added point to the conversation think of Wolfenstien 3D and Doom, (some people still don't realize or even remember this) they were both released as Shareware and developed as indie titles by indie developers...  Most of their popularity was gained through word of mouth and distribution was done mainly through BBS's (Public Bulletin Board Systems) which were nowhere near as widely used in terms of scope or scale as todays "Internet" as we know it.   I'm sure the guys at "id" (just 2 people at the time) wanted to make some money but I have to believe that they were pretty intelligent and realized that they had made much more than a profit from money.  They now have a large fan base and people who are constantly on the lookout for their next release.  None of this happened over night, yet the company is still around.

Again, I think it's important to do what you feel is right and try your damned-est to not "Sell-Out".  I believe it's the best way to remain "Great".

How does this all apply to "Steam"?  It's just some food for thought... 

 

Cheers,

Johnny

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www.i-luv-games.com

[xander]

Well since Alec has given the green light  , I was really not trying to dissuade or persuade the guys at Bit-Blot or coach them into making one decision or another, I was just trying to get the point across as to why I personally don't like Steam. 
I have a big problem with being forced to have one app running in the background just so I can use another, I think many would agree that there are enough mysterious background apps running (in Windows) at all times.  Having one more app may not seem like much but to me it's just as annoying as lets say -- Spyware.

But Bit-Blot releasing Aquaria via Steam should have no effect upon you whatsoever.  Bit-Blot are already planning to release Aquaria retail-style (I'm guessing a download from their site, or something).  So, you get that version, and Steam users get their Steam version.  Also, for many programs, Steam is not required to be running the background.  For instance, all of the files from all three of Introversion's games can be taken out of the Steam directory, and (sometimes with a little patching) can be run without Steam.  This is because Steam does not require that DRM be present.  I see no reason that Bit-Blot couldn't do the same, if they so chose.

In the end, I don't see how distribution via Steam could be a bad thing for small game developers who want to get their name out...

xander

[Xocrates]

As a Steam user myself I would like to say that Steam is great for impulse buying, particularly of small cheap games (as is the case of most indie games). I go there many times when bored and check games on the 1-10$ and 11-20$ ranges.

Putting Aquaria on Steam would not so much in order to get to the target audience, but to the potential one.  Regular folk that have never heard of the game and probably wouldn't give it a second look otherwise might try a demo they find across steam (a service they're more likely to trust than a random website) and eventually buy the game.

Whether you find Steam to be evil or not is irrelevant for the discussion, the point is more if you want the advantages it might bring and if those compensate the disadvantages.

[Johnny Boy]

Xander and Xocrates: 

I never said that Bit-Blot should or shouldn't work with Valve to have their game distributed via Steam.  I honestly don't know what sort of "Cut" Valve gets for the games they distribute or what they would expect for an indie title such as Aquaria.  The fact of the matter is Everyone can purchase Aquaria from Bit-Blots Site and Steam users will just as easily learn about Aquaria as the people who do not use Steam through other websites and alternative media.  Steam is both liked and disliked in equal amounts so I'm sure that Aquaria would get noticed on Steam but who's to say Aquaria won't get noticed without it?  As I mentioned in my original post, these are decisions that do not have to be made right away and is something that can be thought about and used as on option in the future if Alec and Derek want or perhaps need to.  So it is only my opinion that it would make sense to start distribution through your own site first and then expand, this is also good business for the guys at Bit-Blot because they will make more profit with each title sold rather than watering down the value of their game by selling it through a 3rd party right away.  I say go with the 3rd Party distribution when and if Aquaria starts losing some of it's "Steam" (pardon the pun) and popularity.  Otherwise do what you can with what you've got.  There are plenty of sites and magazines that will cover the story, give sneak peaks, and give previews and reviews of Aquaria resulting in positive PR for Bit-Blot and Aquaria (what's that saying about all PR?).   PR such as this is also cost effective and as close to free as you can get when trying to spread the word about your product.  So "Regular folk that have never heard of the game and probably wouldn't give it a second look otherwise might try a demo" (as quoted by Xocrates post), but they might try it straight from the Bit-Blot site.

So please don't take it the wrong way, I'm just not convinced that by distributing through a 3rd party portal or download distribution site is necessary at such and early stage when it can be used as a much more beneficial and profitable tool at a later date.  Just makes more sense to me.  Once the game is out, "It's out" so it's not going to disappear off the face of the planet but it may wane in popularity in a year or so when distribution through outside means would re-vitalize sales and perhaps it's popularity once more.

Aside from all of that (and I'm sure I mentioned it before) you're contributing to the developers more directly which gives them more profit and more incentive.  You also get a more direct connection with the devs and more immediate customer service and tech support and the knowledge that your money is going toward this and future developments by Bit-Blot. 

Either way it's easy for any of us to ask that the guys at Bit-Blot go with a massive world-wide distribution and all sorts of 3rd party companies and download portals that will ultimately increase exposure to their game while also taking cuts into their overall profits (which is what I meant by cheapening the game).   We can only speculate, make assumptions and recommendations so easily because we haven't put anything into Aquaria or invest our time into the project.   That's why I'm trying very hard to stick to my opinions and what I've learned as fact on the matter without trying to get a handle on the direction that Bit-Blot will take, or try to steer them, because I know that Alec and Derek are smart enough to think for themselves and they may have already had thoughts about distribution and the like a year ago, or perhaps not.  The important thing about discussions is expressing your views without knocking everyone else's.  So I do appreciate your opinions as well Xander and Xocrates.  I just think it's more important to be thoughtful than spiteful, so I try not to knock other peoples opinions.

It's an interesting discussion.  Don't know if it's of any use but we'll find out what Alec and Derek decide to do in the near future I'm sure.  I wish them the best of success no matter what they decide to do.  It goes without saying that we're all pretty anxious to dive into the game.   

Cheers!

Johnny


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www.i-luv-games.com

[Zam]

Excellent post Johnny. Bit-blot can use steam later on, after the inital hype has worn off. Thus making Aquaria more popular/mainstream, and still keeping optimum profits.


I think that we can all agree that is good, eh?

[Xocrates]

Actually Johny, I wasn't trying to argue against you, I was just giving my honest opinion.

But I must admit, releasing Aquaria first on the website and some time later on Steam is probably a good idea.


I have however to point out that

Aquaria would get noticed on Steam but who's to say Aquaria won't get noticed without it?
There are plenty of sites and magazines that will cover the story, give sneak peaks, and give previews and reviews of Aquaria resulting in positive PR for Bit-Blot and Aquaria

Doesn't always work.

Case in point (and I hate to keep mentioning introversion on a different forum) I'm the only person I personally know that bought any of introversion's games, the only mention I've ever seen on a magazine around here about them was a small note when Darwinia won the IGF. The only way I even know about IV is because several years ago my brother brought home a pirate copy of Uplink which got me hooked (I've bought the game since).

I would also like to get back to the point of "trust". Many people are still afraid of buying stuff through the internet, in fact one of the reasons I bought Darwinia through Steam instead of IV's shop was because I didn't quite trust a site which support and reliability I knew nothing about. Steam belonged to a big company, it seemed a far better option.

[Johnny Boy]

Actually Xocrates, now you know another person who has bought games straight from Introversions Website.     I've purchased a couple of their titles (and decided to get the physical version of Defcon).  With sites like GameTunnel and other indie gaming sites people do find out about these titles and they have had plenty of honorable mention in various E-zines and Magz.  I think you're underestimating the power of the internet and the length at which good "Word 'o Mouth" can go.  I personally know of two other people who also bought Defcon and a few more people who hadn't heard of it until they stumbled across my site and asked me a couple of questions about it.  I was also online the day that Defcon launched and there were plenty of games up and running both Demo and Full versions (and most of them weren't running under Steam - it's great because the lobby allows you to see who's using a Steam version and who isn't).  So while your point might apply to some games, it doesn't necessarily apply to Introversions Games or Bit-Blots.  I think you're right that Steam could definitely make a game or company that "isn't" very popular more so, but Introversion has had a decent run of success through IGF, indie gaming sites, alternative media, and word of mouth.  I've browsed their forums as well and it's not really as if their is a lack of forum discussion.  Also, remember that IGF is also getting a little coverage from some of the larger mainstream sites as well (ala GameSpot).  So I think you probably just perceive it that way because you perhaps don't know anyone in "real life" that knows of Defcon or the other Introversion titles which is much more likely and probable.  A great example of after-market distribution and merchandising would be Gish.  It wasn't very popular in the beginning (not many people had heard about it) but it was a damn good game that once found, received extremely positive reviews and response from indie gamers.  After some time Gish turned up on Download portals and 3rd party sites and ending up doing better.  Sometimes success can be based on timing or even luck, but I think Aquaria has been more widely received (and it isn't even out yet) because of IGF and the amount of great coverage that it has received and this is only the beginning.  Once the game is out it'll be easier to show it off and spread the word.  I think Bit-Blot will do just fine and having the extra options (as mentioned throughout the "Steam" discussion) will be more beneficial in the long run of things.

Cheers!

Johnny


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www.i-luv-games.com

[Alec]

Time for a little interjection with my mini-rant... Note this is only referring to the PC platform.

I personally believe that if indies work together in marketing, they will eventually outgrow being so dependent on portals.

For now, portals like Steam are a great way to reach a huge audience. (without having to make a game that panders to a certain type of audience like on casual portals) I think Valve is doing a great thing for indies.

But as more full, content-rich and high quality indie games are made, and the strength of the community grows (TIGForums!) I think the makers of those great games will be able to work together to make an impact without having to resort to larger companies as much. (this is part of what the IGF is all about!) As more great games are made and more people see that buying games direct from indies is nothing to worry about, things will only get better. If we run and hide behind publishers right away or all the time, we'll only be giving more attention, wealth and power to them.

Now, I have no idea how probable it is that indies will eventually have this kind of cooperation and influence, but I don't really care. Its something I want to work towards and I'm going to keep at it.

To recap the BB side of things:

At this point in time it is both important to establish our own website as a source of quality games, as well as work towards setting up a deal with Steam. But I don't see the need to be on Steam right away... I'm very curious to see how well we can do on our own first.

(I think the only way I'd ever launch the game on Steam at the same time as our site, is if they offered us some kind of insane deal. [note by launch I mean "first ever release"])

[Stalfos]

What about users that do not even know the difference between indie game and other games? Gamers who just buy game to play for fun, without any after-thoughts about

[Alec]

hopefully indie-game will get to be recognized as a genre by itself, and people will get to trust those. But it is a long term process.

Yeah, definitely!

I'm really glad there are things like Steam around now, they make life much better for indies!

But in the very long term, I'd rather see a service like that run by indies and/or news sites for indie games that gain enough popularity to actually shift a lot of units without having to resort to the casual portals.

If it ever happens, it'll take a lot of time and a lot of really good games. It feels to me like there is a tide coming, in the way that I see a lot more impressive indie games on the horizon than I did several years ago. More and better games are what will make the difference!

[Johnny Boy]

   Well said Alec and pretty much the point I was trying to get across but you took it a step further by mentioning that indie devs should work together to grow without having to rely on some of the large (albeit money hungry) companies.  The problem with some (if not most) of these larger publishers is that they don't give a damn about the developers, they care about the bottom line only so the quality of the game doesn't matter -- just how much it'll make them, with little to no concern for the developer.  I'd really like to drop a few names regarding the matter but I'll force myself not to (two capitalized vowels come to mind -- damn you BioWare!  Why! WHY!!!   ), I find that with these large publishers game plus game play quality and customer support is far from secondary and barely applicable to their business ethic.  This is a mini-rant as well but it's important to note that what Alec mentioned about being able to succeed and grow without the need to have your choices made for you or another hand in your pocket is important for all indie developers and even mainstream developers who are seeking creative control over their work.  I can't say that this is something that Valve intends to do with their Steam service, but I can say that Valve has enough money and will most likely be an available service in the future, so there's no need to rush into things.

In regard to what you had said Stalfos, although finding out about the game is all part of marketing and the gaming "biz" it's important for smaller developing companies to be able to profit from their efforts without relying fully on another large publisher if not only to help the developer recognize where they could make improvements and grow or how to market the game better, but it also gives more meaning to the word "independent" and ensures that these developers retain control over their product.  The internet makes it possible to market in numerous and inventive ways.  I really think Aquaria will reach it's target audience (which is hopefully anyone who loves video games  )

I can't speak for all indie developers, but I know that when I've put a large amount of time, effort, and work into something I wouldn't want to give it up easily or cheaply just to make a quick buck...  I'd personally want to develop my skills and grow so that my efforts or talents would be sought after for some time.  Not everyone feels the same way and that's understandable, but I'm just more sentimental and thoughtful about what I want to try to accomplish in life.  Doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, but I think it's a healthy and respectable way of looking at things.

And yes Alec, I agree with you, I think indie games are getting better and better.  There is a tide coming and I really can't wait to play that game that's somewhat of a cross between Ecco the Dolphin, Castlevania: SoTN, and Metroid...  oh what's it called again....  Oh yeah, Aquaria 

Johnny


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www.i-luv-games.com