Bit Blot Forum
Aquaria => General => Topic started by: Aristobulus on October 18, 2010, 01:17:48 am
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The scenes in the extended ending are really my only complaint about the entirety of Aquaria - I'd just like to lay that down to start off with so no one thinks I'm ungrateful or don't appreciate Aquaria itself - it was overall an amazing game and if all I can complain about is a part of the ending that's something impressive...still, that said, let me begin with my complaints.
Mostly, my complaints are that the entire series of events seem clearly like they were written just to open the game up for a sequel, and so they are rather forced and not as well written, especially in comparison to the masterwork that was the rest of the writing in the game. This is a problem even mainstream, professional companies fall victim to - god knows Bioware forces their writing all the time in Mass Effect 2, because they want certain events to happen, they will make characters do things even if it's not entirely natural, so it's understandable that the same could happen to Aquaria, but all the same it's a flaw. Not to mention, the entire extra ending serves just to be a downer ending so that there is motivation for conflict in a sequel - but since it is very unlikely there is going to be a sequel, it really feels rather pointless. The ending was pretty much nice and self contained before the extended scenes which just kindof ruined the tone and emotion for something extremely depressing, all in the name of a game that will never be...
So, that's all a general idea, what do I specifically mean, when I say things are forced? Well, it's just...general inconsistencies and problems. For one thing, where is Li in the entirety of the ending? Naija gets kidnapped by her mother and he doesn't do anything about it? He's just gone? After all they've been through and done, stopping an entire god, a crystal is what stops Naija?
Which is, really, another problem that's forced. Naija needed to be incapacitated for a sequel so as to provide conflict and motivation for the player to care, and also to give reason for there to be another protagonist, so she just became unavailable, even if it doesn't make that much sense that she would be. So why do I find the way events turn out so unreasonable? Well...it was a rather obvious trap, I think, and it's a little immersion breaking that Naija, who has been through so much, can be dumb enough to fall victim to it without even resisting.
It wasn't even a surprise attack, which is part of the problem. She goes through a very dreary looking passageway that wasn't there before, full of dead things, and meets her mother. If her mother had just instantly taken this moment of shock to incapacitate Naija it'd be one thing, but she didn't. She went on a monologue detailing just how evil she was and how little she cared for Naija, even specifically stating how she'd harmed Naija in the past.
So the problem? None of this puts Naija on her guard. She doesn't resist her mother more than slightly verbally - she should've been expecting something from the moment her mother said she wiped her memories in the first place. She tells her mother to let her go, but she doesn't resist at all, she just lets her mother do with her as she wishes. This is what I mean by forced - Naija has, throughout the entire game, been a rather strong, independent character who would fight for want she wants, and here she is entirely passive. It's inconsistent!
At the very least, there should've been an unwinnable boss fight that shows Naija simply being overcome - that would be more consistent. Naija fights, like she always has, but for a change simply is overcome. Considering she was able to take down a god, not being able to take down Mia is somewhat hard to believe, but then again she had Li with her against the Creator and she wouldn't have any emotions holding her back, really, like could be present against Mia - and before anyone says it, I don't think any of these emotions should've been strong enough in acting against her to explain why she is so entirely passive in the confrontation with Mia. She was strong enough to overcome emotions to do what needed to be done before, now all of a sudden she isn't? That's why I don't think that fits as an argument to explain her being passive.
Anyway, that's really my issue. I am, of course, just bitter than an overall really well self contained game had to be forced into an incredibly depressing downer ending that will never get resolved, but I do think I have some valid complaints against the extended ending, as it was, anyway. But I do think I would've honestly preferred if the game had just ended without the extended scenes - I really kindof regret getting all the memories.
Edit - To anyone who may have agreed with me, Alphasoldier has a great theory that solves many of these conflicts on page 2. Read it!
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There's a ton of possibilities that could've made it so as it went.
- It could've been a dream made by Mia or Naija thought it was a dream.
- She could've been so surprised that she finally met her mother and all the info that she was pretty much paralyzed.
- She by long hasn't fought anymore so perhaps she didn't know how to battle anymore, she is/was a mother after all.
- Mia could've manipulated her from the start, we don't know her powers. I mean she DID transport Naija somehow... Also showed her that energy battle vision.
So many reasons that could be, I'm not sure if it's the ending that makes you complain or the lack of a sequel.
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Registered just to comment on this:
I really kindof regret getting all the memories.
I felt exactly the same way. This game made a huge impression on me in terms of gameplay, artwork, and story (I'd like to add an additional appreciation for Jenna Sharpe with regard to her excellent contribution of talent.)
The extended ending slightly marred the experience once I'd learned there weren't any concrete plans for a sequel.
To be fair, I understand the reasons for not creating a proper sequel; I'd rather not see an "Aquaria 2" if it failed to live up to the first for whatever reasons.
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I don't think we ever really intended to make a sequel, even though I thought ahead to what the next game would be about and how it would all conclude. Derek and I also talked about what the gameplay would be about, but we never really talked seriously about starting an Aquaria 2.
At one point we talked about doing a DS game that would have been almost like Aquaria 1.5, the backstory of one of the characters who appears briefly in the real ending.
Personally, I was interested in making the statement that there are no happy endings, and that Naija's story carries on - regardless of whether or not we're making sequels. (one concrete example of this is how the fan-made mods expand on the story)
I had versions of the ending that didn't say "to be continued", but they didn't feel right to me.
Overall, I don't think the real ending is supposed to make anyone feel "happy" per se.
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I didn't intend to imply that you NEEDED to make a sequel - certainly I feel that a good self contained game can be stronger than one strung out to needless sequels.
My issue is - what's the point of the extended ending, other than to be a sudden random downer? Further, why the "to be continued" if you don't plan on continuing it? Shouldn't you let the story be self contained and close all plot threads if you don't intend to continue it?
My complaints are that, without the extended ending, you basically have just that - an ending that wraps up all plot threads and is final. As a bonus, you even managed to achieve that effect you wanted of "making the statement that there are no happy endings" because it ends with Naija not being sure that she's happy with family life and being nostalgic for the sense of adventure. But it's still a very strong ending to the entire tale, there's nothing really missing, it's just a somewhat sad ending because Naija isn't entirely content.
I also certainly don't feel that an ending HAS to be happy - many great stories have downer endings - my criticism is that it's a forced downer ending. By that I mean mostly what I said in my original post - it's a downer ending that doesn't feel like it makes sense to be happening, and in happening it opens up many more loose threads than it closes, and a good self contained ending should close plot threads, not open them, unless it's trying to lead the way to a sequel.
If it had felt more natural, like what was happening was just the way events would logically play out, I wouldn't complain. Again, I'm not upset it was a sad ending, and I'm not demanding that the ending should've been happy - just natural. This one, as I laid out, was filled with characters making moves unfitting of them just so the ending could be sad. This is just as bad as forced movements so an ending can be happy - certainly deux ex machinas that save characters lives so there can be a happily ever after are just as worthy of criticism. I don't mean to be inconsistent here, so if you feel I'm wrong on a point, please inform me.
Really though, I just don't see why the extended ending was necessary, especially if you didn't actually intend on making a sequel. Why the To Be Continued? Why everything I complained about? I should point that the normal ending also achieves showing that there's still possible adventure because Naija raises a family and who knows what her offspring could get off to - especially since we saw the Krotites get revived and we know they are a violent race that will very likely continue to be violent even after getting revived because it's their nature. We still had issues of Li's society to think about as well, and the leftovers from the Sunken City - there was plenty there to achieve the effect of showing there was more out there.
I really just don't see why the extended ending was at all needed. Am I being clear enough? I don't mean that in an obnoxious way - I'm honestly asking if I need to clarify any of my points, for the sake of the discussion. My goal here is to have the most thorough discussion possible, not to insult anyone or your work as a whole - certainly if I felt Aquaria was bad I wouldn't bother discussing it at all - it is a mark of a true quality work that discussion CAN be had about it, after all. Poor work doesn't invite discussion...but good stuff...that does.
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I just explained most of the things you ranted about.
I fucking hate it when people say things are "unnecessary".
Nothing is ever necessary. It was never "necessary" for us to make a game in the first place. Human existence in general, is "unnecessary". So what?
Clearly we thought it was meaningful to include this in the game. If you didn't, then that's too bad.
We make the stuff we're interested in exploring emotionally. That's why we make stuff. Duh?
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As someone who takes the opposite view -- that the game doesn't feel complete without the extended ending, downer though it is -- I feel compelled to point out one thing: If Naija's reflections on her adventures are the "end" of the story, then what of Mia? Why would she mysteriously appear at critical points of the story, yet never reveal herself? What is her motive for leading Naija to defeat the Creator? All the Creator ever says is "she was too perfect... she left me and she made you", which is hardly enough information to divine anything about Mia herself. And while I'm undoubtedly biased by having actually seen the ending, I can't easily think of an alternate conclusion that better fits Mia's actions (few as they are) in the main story.
And while I agree the story could have been written so everything (including Naija and Mia) did wind up with a happy ending, it's really Alec's decision which way he wants to take it, now isn't it? (:
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Well of course things, on a large scale, are unnecessary, but I didn't mean it in that sense and I'm sure you know that. I'm talking about to the story itself - I don't doubt you felt it was necessary, that's why you included it. I'm asking why you felt the story needed those events - perhaps you can change my mind and convince me it did.
I don't agree with you coloring of my posts as "ranting" either - that implies an intention that is not true - it implies that I want to shout and yell and just generally make a lot of noise just to hear myself talk - which isn't true. I WANT people to discuss this with me - tell me why they agree or disagree. If someone thinks I'm wrong, I'd like to hear why! Like I said, discussing parts of a game after I've beaten it is how I get more enjoyment out of something I liked even though I've completed the game - I still visit the Mass Effect thread on SA because I felt that was a strong game with a strong story and characters that leaves a lot to talk about because it's just so solid. I feel the same for Aquaria - the greatest insult I could give to the game would be to NOT talk about it - bad games I just stop playing and forget about, good ones I try to draw out all I can and discuss various elements of the story and characters with whoever is willing.
I've asked this as well, because I don't feel you did explain why the story needed it - you said why you created it personally, and I never doubted that for a second. I never felt that you included anything in the game you didn't feel was worth it - but I am unable to grasp WHY you feel the way you do. This is what I want a discussion on - what do you feel the extended ending adds to the story that the normal ending does not? What am I missing about it? I'm not out to be an antagonist here, I'm fully willing to listen - I'll concede and possibly change my mind and say it's a very strong and well written scene that lives up to the majesty of the rest of the game, perhaps!
It's just, from what you've told me so far, it seems like everything you wanted was included in the normal ending, so I still am unable to grasp the point of the extended ending. I very much want to be wrong, I should clarify, because it would mean I could change my mind about what I currently view as a bad scene in an otherwise amazing game - I would LOVE to be able to have to strain myself to find faults in the game.
Edit - Oh, a new post while I was typing.
As someone who takes the opposite view -- that the game doesn't feel complete without the extended ending, downer though it is -- I feel compelled to point out one thing: If Naija's reflections on her adventures are the "end" of the story, then what of Mia? Why would she mysteriously appear at critical points of the story, yet never reveal herself? What is her motive for leading Naija to defeat the Creator? All the Creator ever says is "she was too perfect... she left me and she made you", which is hardly enough information to divine anything about Mia herself. And while I'm undoubtedly biased by having actually seen the ending, I can't easily think of an alternate conclusion that better fits Mia's actions (few as they are) in the main story.
And while I agree the story could have been written so everything (including Naija and Mia) did wind up with a happy ending, it's really Alec's decision which way he wants to take it, now isn't it? (:
This is certainly true...I have to give you credit for that. The extended ending does tell us why Naija had amnesia in the first place and it explains more of Mia...but that doesn't absolve it of the other flaws I criticized it for. As for what fits Mia? Anything would've fit - we didn't know enough about her. It could just as easily have been that she wanted to get back at the Creator but was scared of his power and so was working from the shadows, and once that was done, she wanted peace. The power hungry corrupt Mia isn't unfitting - no, I'm not saying that, but neither would pretty much any other attitude you could think would be unfitting.
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Well of course things, on a large scale, are unnecessary, but I didn't mean it in that sense and I'm sure you know that. I'm talking about to the story itself - I don't doubt you felt it was necessary, that's why you included it. I'm asking why you felt the story needed those events - perhaps you can change my mind and convince me it did.
Frankly, I don't care at all about debating subjective things in a make-believe objective way. If you didn't like something that I find really important and meaningful about the game, that's too bad. Very few people are going to love everything about this game. I can live with that.
You can either decide to respect that I have a different, legitimate view than you, or not. I don't really care which it is, because I know that the feelings and experiences that I put into this game are real and meaningful to me. There was nothing we put into the game where we were like "OMG this will make no sense and piss people off, LOL". Everything was thought about extensively and measured against internal standards of "what to me feels the most meaningful". And that's why we made it.
If I was really worried more about how random opinions would differ from my own, I wouldn't be making games from intense personal experiences.
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I really think you're misunderstanding my intentions, here. I already said I don't doubt that you felt it was important and meaningful - and about respecting your opinion? That's exactly why I want to hear it! Because I DO respect your opinion - if I didn't respect it, I wouldn't want to hear it, I would just claim my view was the one and only correct view and all others were wrong - I am not making this claim. It is very possible I am wrong.
And not just your opinion - I want to hear anyone's opinion who disagrees with me. That's what's necessary for a real discussion or debate, after all - other people with completely legitimate viewpoints and arguments to back it up.
I have never implied, nor meant to imply, that you put something into the game thinking it was worthless and with only intentions to troll people, and I apologize if anything I posted came off in that manner, it was truly not my intention. It is just a conflict I see with the game, and one I can hopefully resolve for myself by talking it through with someone else who disagrees with me.
I can't convince myself that I am wrong, but someone who disagrees with me from the start...now THEY could have reasons and a viewpoint I simply never considered, or missed, and in understanding why they like the extended ending, I can come to appreciate it myself, as I do the rest of the game. This is what I want - this is what I am after. Simply a larger understanding of the story itself, and various viewpoints for it. It's an interesting and solid story, so I am sure that it invokes more than just MY thoughts on matters. It's not such a simple game that there can be only one way to understand and comprehend the game and the events.
You keep telling me personal reasons for why you included the scenes - are you not interested in discussing it from a lore-wise, storyline perspective? That's my issue with it - nothing more - I think you're taking my arguments too personally, as an attack on you as an individual - I truly do not mean them in this manner. I really, honestly do just want to discuss the storyline and hopefully learn more about it and change my own opinion.
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The extended ending does tell us why Naija had amnesia in the first place and it explains more of Mia...but that doesn't absolve it of the other flaws I criticized it for.
Well, let's see:
- Where is Li? Probably home tending Lucien. Even in the real world, wives will take ladies' nights out and what have you while their husbands watch the kids.
- Why doesn't Li go after Naija? Presumably he did, but not within the short time span of the ending.
- The dreary passageway? Probably a trick of Mia's to get Naija off balance and further confuse her when they meet. If anything, Mia probably wanted Naija to be on her guard, so Naija would drop her defenses when Mia reveals herself.
- And how does Mia overcome Naija? We can argue back and forth about things like Mia drawing her power directly from the Creator while Naija is a generation removed, or whatever, but Naija just found her mother, for crying out loud! The dialogue between them may feel long because you're only watching, but I'm sure Naija's mind is still reeling even as she tries to push away. If you think you could do any better in the same situation, then perhaps you haven't had the life experiences necessary to understand why Naija couldn't, but it's absolutely believable to me.
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Well, let's see:
- Where is Li? Probably home tending Lucien. Even in the real world, wives will take ladies' nights out and what have you while their husbands watch the kids.
- Why doesn't Li go after Naija? Presumably he did, but not within the short time span of the ending.
Alright, I can concede on these two points. I suppose Mia would have also wanted to time it for when Naija was alone, too, and Li too preoccupied to be able to become aware in time to help.
- The dreary passageway? Probably a trick of Mia's to get Naija off balance and further confuse her when they meet. If anything, Mia probably wanted Naija to be on her guard, so Naija would drop her defenses when Mia reveals herself.
This I'm not sure I understand. Why would the dreary and ominous environment put Naija more off her guard, than she would've been if Mia just appeared in an otherwise peaceful setting?
- And how does Mia overcome Naija? We can argue back and forth about things like Mia drawing her power directly from the Creator while Naija is a generation removed, or whatever, but Naija just found her mother, for crying out loud! The dialogue between them may feel long because you're only watching, but I'm sure Naija's mind is still reeling even as she tries to push away. If you think you could do any better in the same situation, then perhaps you haven't had the life experiences necessary to understand why Naija couldn't, but it's absolutely believable to me.
This is, unfortunately, a point I'm not sure I'll be able to concede on, or that we can come to a compromise about. From my perspective, Naija should've had her guard down at first - dropping it upon seeing her mother, that makes perfect sense. But Mia's evil speech about wanting to claim the surface should've put Naija on edge. When Mia outright told her that she was the one who wiped Naija's memories in the first place, that REALLY should've had Naija putting her guard back up - that's Mia outright telling her she is an enemy of hers. Especially combined with all the corruption talk.
I simply can not understand why the shock of seeing her mother again would persist through the edge the speech Mia gave her, should've given her. I just can't comprehend Naija falling for that trap again simply because she was in a daze from seeing her mother. By that point, anyway, she had already had experience in putting her emotions to the side for a moment, to deal with a threat or to have her guard up, so her own natural combat instincts should've kicked in as well.
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- The dreary passageway? Probably a trick of Mia's to get Naija off balance and further confuse her when they meet. If anything, Mia probably wanted Naija to be on her guard, so Naija would drop her defenses when Mia reveals herself.
This I'm not sure I understand. Why would the dreary and ominous environment put Naija more off her guard, than she would've been if Mia just appeared in an otherwise peaceful setting?
Did you misread? I said "off balance" and "on guard". The desired effect is that Naija, being on guard against a possible enemy, will then drop her defenses on meeting her mother -- leaving her more vulnerable than she might have been otherwise. (I don't have the psychological background to argue this properly, so if you don't agree, I suppose we'll have to leave it at that.)
- And how does Mia overcome Naija?
This is, unfortunately, a point I'm not sure I'll be able to concede on, or that we can come to a compromise about. From my perspective, Naija should've had her guard down at first - dropping it upon seeing her mother, that makes perfect sense. But Mia's evil speech about wanting to claim the surface should've put Naija on edge. When Mia outright told her that she was the one who wiped Naija's memories in the first place, that REALLY should've had Naija putting her guard back up - that's Mia outright telling her she is an enemy of hers. Especially combined with all the corruption talk.
Thing is, emotions don't follow logic. (: Naija's spent years dreaming about meeting her mother; a mere 84 seconds (time it!) of sadistic comments aren't going to instantly flip those feelings on their head. Even the "I wiped your memories" comment could just as easily be a prequel to "you were tortured by the Creator, so I had to suppress that" sort of thing, with Naija's best interests at heart. I'd argue there's not enough there, either reason or time, for Naija to decide that her mother is in fact Evil -- and certainly not enough for her to be willing to kill her only living blood relative mother (edit: I guess Lucien also counts as a blood relative, but the point stands). If you can't accept that, then again, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Did you misread? I said "off balance" and "on guard". The desired effect is that Naija, being on guard against a possible enemy, will then drop her defenses on meeting her mother -- leaving her more vulnerable than she might have been otherwise. (I don't have the psychological background to argue this properly, so if you don't agree, I suppose we'll have to leave it at that.)
Right, I get that. I understand that she drops her guard on seeing Mia. What I don't get is how the process of going through creepy ominous corridors and then seeing Mia has Naija with her guard down, more than she would've had her guard down had Mia simply appeared in a more peaceful in the first place. Like, if she'd simply appeared in the verse cave Naija was in.
Thing is, emotions don't follow logic. (: Naija's spent years dreaming about meeting her mother; a mere 84 seconds (time it!) of sadistic comments aren't going to instantly flip those feelings on their head. Even the "I wiped your memories" comment could just as easily be a prequel to "you were tortured by the Creator, so I had to suppress that" sort of thing, with Naija's best interests at heart. I'd argue there's not enough there, either reason or time, for Naija to decide that her mother is in fact Evil -- and certainly not enough for her to be willing to kill her only living blood relative. If you can't accept that, then again, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I don't mean that Naija should have been so ready to kill Mia, but she should've atleast had her guard up to be able to simply try to resist Mia mind wiping her again. She should've been on guard - if not to fight, then to flee and survive.
Though I have to admit I hadn't considered that there were other ways to interpret that mind wiping comment - however, doesn't she only tell Naija she did that after she's tried to talk Naija into becoming corrupt and power hungry and attempting to control the surface? If she did, then it's harder to say that she could've meant that mind wiping in a nice manner, because of the way the "Join me and conquer the surface" colors the conversation towards an evil tone.
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Though I have to admit I hadn't considered that there were other ways to interpret that mind wiping comment - however, doesn't she only tell Naija she did that after she's tried to talk Naija into becoming corrupt and power hungry and attempting to control the surface?
Nope! Listen again (or cheat and look at scripts/vox/mia-and-naija.txt). The only hint of her evilness before then is the "little boys are trouble" line, which could be interpreted plenty of different ways.
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Personally, I was interested in making the statement that there are no happy endings, and that Naija's story carries on - regardless of whether or not we're making sequels.
I can understand that.
Thanks for expanding my perspective, and making a really awesome game! ^^
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Nope! Listen again (or cheat and look at scripts/vox/mia-and-naija.txt). The only hint of her evilness before then is the "little boys are trouble" line, which could be interpreted plenty of different ways.
Well, you're absolutely right. Since I can't say that the comment itself is evil enough by its' own merits, I can't say that it alone should put Naija totally on guard. However...Mia does still go into that evil speech, just AFTER telling her she had wiped her mind originally. Which should retroactively color the tone of the otherwise neutral mind wiping comment, and once again Naija should still have been on edge, especially with Mia repeatedly refusing to "let her go".
I still just find it hard to swallow that Naija didn't even attempt to resist Mia - and again, there are ways to resist without having to resort to killing.
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What I don't understand is that you don't even think of the possibility that Mia already had Naija under control.
Mia is someone who's very mysterious but the story that you follow explains a lot about her.
Like that Mia couldn't kill the creator herself so she used a land creature for that, Li. And thus the manipulation of Naija. Heck, she probably even set up earlier meetings between Naija and Li, knowing her manipulative mind. And I wouldn't even be surprised that the time in between the mind wiping and the start of the story is not even a day, though could be. Just pointing out that she's probably powerful enough to make things like that happen.
Knowing... or rather speculating all this it'd be pretty obvious that she either knew Naija wouldn't respond violently or she had already manipulated her before she transported her to that spiral room. Which in fact is almost the same room as you started the story with, what makes it all the more sense if this all was either a dream/vision and Mia already caught her in her sleep. Why else take unnecessary risks?
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What I don't understand is that you don't even think of the possibility that Mia already had Naija under control.
Mia is someone who's very mysterious but the story that you follow explains a lot about her.
Like that Mia couldn't kill the creator herself so she used a land creature for that, Li. And thus the manipulation of Naija. Heck, she probably even set up earlier meetings between Naija and Li, knowing her manipulative mind. And I wouldn't even be surprised that the time in between the mind wiping and the start of the story is not even a day, though could be. Just pointing out that she's probably powerful enough to make things like that happen.
This is an interesting theory but I'm not sure if there's anything in game to hint that it's the case - rather that there's nothing saying it DIDN'T happen that way, either. Like - I can find no conflicts with it, but nothing really supporting it either. Interesting, though.
Knowing... or rather speculating all this it'd be pretty obvious that she either knew Naija wouldn't respond violently or she had already manipulated her before she transported her to that spiral room. Which in fact is almost the same room as you started the story with, what makes it all the more sense if this all was either a dream/vision and Mia already caught her in her sleep. Why else take unnecessary risks?
Now this...this is something. I'm rather stunned that I hadn't considered this myself and it - it makes so much sense. If we go with your theory here...this explains quite a few things.
Of note - it answers how Mia could seemingly do the impossible and reshape the entire landscape to have a cave lead where it once did not, in totally warped directions and have it end up just where it started and yet not where it started - how could she? By doing as you say...and not doing that at all, but actually just manipulating Naija's mind, manipulating a dream landscape is certainly a simpler task than reshaping reality.
It also would be consistent with her powers - if she's simply manipulating Naija's mind, and has the power to wipe memories, it makes sense that she would have the power to warp a dreamscape - the consistency is also that Mia is not shown to have the power to reshape reality itself to do what it would take to physically manipulate the cavern, but IS shown to have the power to manipulate mental states. I can go one step further with your theory here and solve yet more of my conflictions - if it's all a dream manipulated by Mia, then it's a simple task to place Naija into a sort of sleep paralysis, which is a real phenomena where a person is in a state between dreaming and awake and are unable to move or control their body - and this would explain why Naija seemingly did not resist Mia - due to being in that sleep paralysis state, she couldn't.
Naija's pleas of "Let me go!" take on a much stronger, and rather more eerie and desperate tone, under this interpretation. Under this, she is not just weakly pleading, but actually physically trying to do something -as is her character-, but unable to control her body and is imploring Mia to not just let her return to her family, but let her go from her grasp and return control of her body.
I would also mention that if it's a dreamscape, there's other things that show this and have it make sense too - for one thing, it begins and ends in the Verse Cave. It is simply to imagine that Naija went here alone to meditate as she often did, and this one time simply fell asleep - and this is where Mia came upon her and manipulated her dream. As a final nod to this, a dreamscape would be where Mia has the natural advantage, in reality Naija would have the advantage, and considering how much Mia overpowers Naija utterly it makes sense that it must be a dream.
I really like your theory - you've done something for me here that hasn't been done in a while - it's rather similar to how I used to think the ending to Final Fantasy IX was complete nonsense and then I read this theory that explained how it was actually hinted at from the Lifa tree and whatnot, and now I look upon that ending with much more respect and understanding than I gained from it myself originally. Here now, I can do the same thing with Aquaria, it's rather fascinating.
This is why I made the thread, thank you.
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I erm... you're welcome? xD
I'm glad you finally found peace with this. ^^
Inevitably however, this is all a theory. This ending is very open, we barely know anything about Mia but that's kind of why I always had peace with the ending besides the 3 words "To be continued" xD
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Well I told myself I shouldn't post in this thread, because we left things intentionally open so that people could either guess what our version of the story was, or figure out their own.
But whatever, here's some more detail into how the events make sense in my mind. If you feel like this might ruin your take on the game, feel free to ignore it. :)
- Where is Li? Probably home tending Lucien. Even in the real world, wives will take ladies' nights out and what have you while their husbands watch the kids.
The game establishes that Li is not exactly the traditional male "breadwinner". Naija's the one who has to go save him, and she's the one that leads him around. Naija's an independent person, and the first ending adds to that. (how she's seemingly disappointed with having to stay home all the time) I think she'd consider following the clues to Mia to be her own business, and wouldn't want to drag Li or the kids in it. There may also have been a sense of wanting to be alone again. (also hinted at in the first ending)
- Why doesn't Li go after Naija? Presumably he did, but not within the short time span of the ending.
The sequel idea would have talked about that further. Li would have been an NPC in that game. I think Li would have tried to find her without much luck, while his son would have unique powers that would have given him greater ability to find Naija.
- And how does Mia overcome Naija? We can argue back and forth about things like Mia drawing her power directly from the Creator while Naija is a generation removed, or whatever, but Naija just found her mother, for crying out loud! The dialogue between them may feel long because you're only watching, but I'm sure Naija's mind is still reeling even as she tries to push away. If you think you could do any better in the same situation, then perhaps you haven't had the life experiences necessary to understand why Naija couldn't, but it's absolutely believable to me.
I think the whole idea of Mia revealing herself slowly to Naija is so that Mia can make her come to her of Naija's own volition. Mothers can be a pretty inescapable force of nature. (one of my fav. fictional characters is Attia from the HBO series "Rome", for example)
Naija is independent and curious about her past. Mia knows the nature of her daughter very well, knows that she is independent and will fight (and kill if it seems necessary) to figure out the truth. Naija's use of the verse is unique in that she can take on the powers of other beings. In some sense the "evil" side of Mia is already in Naija. (The idea of manipulating other people/situations to get to your objective, in some ways the Energy Form represents this. This also plays a bit into how she handles Li, he's more like a pet than a real person. The way I read it, Li is kinda into that.)
To advance in the game the player must kill the ancient demigods and in a sense, they become like Mia in that they are negatively affecting other beings to get more powers so that they can experience more of the game. (learn the whole story)
Players (unless they quit, or chill out for a long time) are inevitably going to want to get to "the next screen". They don't generally worry too much what they have to do, even if it sometimes gives them twinges of regret. (I've seen some players feel bad for killing so many innocent sea creatures, etc)
In our version of the backstory, the City of Mithalas is ruined long before Naija is born. There's an intentional red herring in Mithalas where Naija wonders if she was a princess in Mithalas. To us, she wasn't. Naija and Mia lived in the ruins of the civilizations as Naija was growing up. (Incidentally, we planned a co-op mode for XBLA that would have explored an event that happened in Mithalas right before the ruin, involving new twin sister characters. It would have been kinda cool.)
The Creator made a lot of his creations in the image of his mother and girlfriend (see sunken city, in his mind the two were linked), one of the visual ideas linking the theme of women/mothers being an unstoppable force of nature is the Forest Goddess. The Kelp Forest in general could be seen to represent how love is sometimes chaotic and wild. First ending explains most of that.
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In terms of Mia's capturing of Naija, the idea behind the scene (and one of the things I told Jenna) is that Naija is frozen.
Why is she frozen? I'd like to leave it up to interpretation, but here is my take on it regardless:
IMO, it's all emotion-based. Adding to the above post, Naija is prone to thinking dark thoughts. One very clear example of this in the Cathedral, when Naija is reflecting on being scared of her own dark powers. (oddly enough, I remember at least one person complaining about this line as being inappropriate for kids)
The way I wrote the Mia/Naija scene was like this... imagine you've confronted someone who is aware of all the dark thoughts and self-doubts you've ever had. You can say on the outside "I don't ever want to do anything wrong again", which may very well work on other people... but it won't work on this person. Mia is aware that Naija "craves more adventure". (I also know that this is true of the player, because players generally feel satisfied, but sad when games end. They always want to find more stuff. At many times Naija is both a character and a representation of the audience.) Both characters are aware of the costs of adventure. (danger, hurting others, learning/seeing things you wish you hadn't) Naija (the player) is in this location because she wants (they want) to learn more, experience more. (players have to go to further lengths to find the 3 memories to unlock the second ending)
One of the themes in the game is bi-polar disorder. The Creator is the example of two characters in one - a little boy combined with some kind of insanely powerful being. The conflict between the two of them is what drives the Creator's actions. Another way to read into this the idea of the creative aspects of making a game fighting with the business side of making a game. There are harsh realities that you run into when you're trying to create anything good. The Creator was ashamed by his creations a lot of the time.
It also ties into my own depression, and how Derek and I would get into crazy arguments while working on the game because of it. There were a lot of times when it looked like the game was total garbage, to me. There were a few instances during the development of the game where I tried to take steps towards killing myself, because I felt like I'd never be able to make anything good. One of the most dramatic times involved friends on irc calling the cops to track me down while I was out trying to convince myself to jump off a bridge. (if anyone's wondering why Derek may not feel comfortable working with me again, that might have a lot to do with it)
I hate mentioning that, because it might be seen as attention whoring or something. I'm mentioning it because it strikes at what I like about Aquaria. It really is (to me at least) a contrast of dark and light - the idea that you can be living in a really beautiful world and still feel like shit. The idea that eventually, somehow you will find a way to fuck up your own plans - that things about your personality and the actions you've taken will eventually come back to bite you in the ass.
Naija is both innocent (at least at the beginning of the game) and extremely dangerous. The Mia character (thematically) is almost not so much a separate character as the idea of Naija's darker side personified. There are reasons why Mia is the way she is, and some of that is very, very vaguely hinted at. (and would have been explored much further in the sequel)
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Additionally, to anyone that cares, the reason I call Marian a spiritual successor is because it deals with similar themes.
What I'm excited about is that it expands on them, and challenges some of them. I think it'll be really interesting, if I can ever finish it. :)
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The game establishes that Li is not exactly the traditional male "breadwinner". Naija's the one who has to go save him, and she's the one that leads him around. Naija's an independent person, and the first ending adds to that. (how she's seemingly disappointed with having to stay home all the time) I think she'd consider following the clues to Mia to be her own business, and wouldn't want to drag Li or the kids in it. There may also have been a sense of wanting to be alone again. (also hinted at in the first ending)
I have to admit, that's one thing I liked about Naija - I certainly wasn't expecting it before I played the game, but she really is a strong feminine character, and she achieves this without becoming a generic overdone badass femme fatale that shouts about how wearing corsets is what masochists should do.
Naija is independent and curious about her past. Mia knows the nature of her daughter very well, knows that she is independent and will fight (and kill if it seems necessary) to figure out the truth. Naija's use of the verse is unique in that she can take on the powers of other beings. In some sense the "evil" side of Mia is already in Naija. (The idea of manipulating other people/situations to get to your objective, in some ways the Energy Form represents this. This also plays a bit into how she handles Li, he's more like a pet than a real person. The way I read it, Li is kinda into that.)
Perhaps during the game, but people forming an actual family complete with children, with their pet is not that common. Then again, there's always S&M...but that's a bit more over the top than I see either Naija or Li behaving - and they seemed like they really cared for one another. And yet another "then again" I speak as one not of the S&M persuasion, so really perhaps I am speaking too negatively from a biased position.
In our version of the backstory, the City of Mithalas is ruined long before Naija is born. There's an intentional red herring in Mithalas where Naija wonders if she was a princess in Mithalas. To us, she wasn't. Naija and Mia lived in the ruins of the civilizations as Naija was growing up. (Incidentally, we planned a co-op mode for XBLA that would have explored an event that happened in Mithalas right before the ruin, involving new twin sister characters. It would have been kinda cool.)
This is interesting. I was always assuming that Naija and her mother DID live in the city with other Mithalans, they were just normal commoners - not royalty, which you can tell by the location of Naija's old home - and they just managed to survive the city being ruined. The version where they lived in an already ruined city makes sense, too, however - it explains how they could have survived the ruination (by simply not being there when it fell), and explains why Naija would have seemingly been born in the abyss and not the city limits themselves.
Another interesting personal note - I discovered the castle and the princess' room before I discovered Naija's old home because I wasn't aware you could actually go into the buildings, so I was pleasantly surprised by that - I liked that, for a change, the main character that is a member of an ancient and lost race is NOT actually royalty, but rather appeared to be just a common member. This is one reason I prefer the interpretation of wherein Mia and Naija lived with other Mithalans and were survivors of the fallen city - it means that atleast Naija is more somewhat average than elite and special, and simply rose to meet her challenges rather than being Hercules with an unfair advantage. However, it seems this interpretation has less evidence going for it than the one where they simply took up residence in an already destroyed city...
I hate mentioning that, because it might be seen as attention whoring or something. I'm mentioning it because it strikes at what I like about Aquaria. It really is (to me at least) a contrast of dark and light - the idea that you can be living in a really beautiful world and still feel like shit. The idea that eventually, somehow you will find a way to fuck up your own plans - that things about your personality and the actions you've taken will eventually come back to bite you in the ass.
I can assure you that I, at least, do not take it as attention whoring. It's an important - if distressing - note and significant to the entire point of the discussion, which is various reasons for certain things in the game happening as they do. I will say you achieved what you set out to, with Aquaria, it definitely portrays all that you have named there.
I would love to be able to comment more on your own insightful perspective, but really - what you have said is mostly self contained. There is little I could add to it, and there is little present for a debate, it is mostly relatively straight forward facts or subjective perspectives outlaid in a way that is simply portraying your own take and perspective, not offering an argument. This is not a negative thing, simply a state of the way things are.
To explain, you seem to perceive games and storylines and characters/etc. on a much more psychological level than I do. That is not to say that I couldn't discuss the psychology present in a character, but rather that you do so from a much more meta perspective, and I am normally one to approach games from a rather straightforward stance of discussing what the characters and storyline present themselves, not so much to dwell on the player or the creators themselves. As an example, when I have discussed Mass Effect in the past, I would refer to events in games, and not often to the real human writers, but stick strictly to the lore as it was. It is just my own style, and I am not professing one to be better than the other.
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I dunno, in my mind the game works on both levels.
But I might just be stupid as shit, who knows.
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I had two problems with it. The first issue for me was that by this point I felt Naija had damn well earned a happy ending. The second issue is that it just didn't feel like an ending. The best comparison I can give is that it's like the game ending after the Sunken City. Li's been abducted, I guess we just go home and be lonely.
Wait, no, we kill a damned AQUATIC DEITY to get him back!
I want to see Mia destroyed. I'm actually a little alarmed by it - I don't usually hate anyone, let alone fictional characters. But she's damn well earned it.
The one point in the ending's favor was Naija's son setting off. If he's anything like his mother, Mia is in for a world of hurt.
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While I can now rationalize the ending so that it's not so out of left field, I do agree that it doesn't feel as much like an ending as much as it does an intermission or halfway point.
Despite that the ending makes more sense to me now, I still think I prefer the normal ending and would still have rather the "true" ending not exist precisely because it, in a way, just raises more questions and starts more threads that deserve to be followed up on, and while the normal ending doesn't answer everything, it at least manages to feel like an ending. Sure, we're left wondering things such as more stuff about Mia, what the land of the world is like, what Li's history and society really is like, and such, but that being unanswered doesn't make the game itself or Naija's story feel incomplete, so the ending is still satisfying enough.
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I want to see Mia destroyed. I'm actually a little alarmed by it - I don't usually hate anyone, let alone fictional characters. But she's damn well earned it.
That's interesting. :) Those feelings would have played into a sequel in interesting ways too...
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Since you have no plans to actually make a sequel, can you at least release what the story likely would've been if you did make one?
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I'd rather wait in the silent hope that there WILL be a sequel than to get the story written out.
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I'd rather wait in the silent hope that there WILL be a sequel than to get the story written out.
Well, sure, but when you have the creator himself telling you he doesn't have any plans to even start making a sequel, there's no real hope.
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Yeah, I think I already hinted at it too much.
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Well I AM still all up for a novel as a 'sequel', that would be amazing and one of the few novel-y things in my life I WOULD read.
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I'd read it, but an Aquaria without the amazing soundtrack and visuals and VA work just wouldn't be the same.
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I actually kind of liked the extended ending. But then, I am a big fan of "But Wait!" twist endings. You know: bad guy's dead, all the likable people who you thought had died are actually okay, things are settling down to be nice and quiet and happy....but wait! What's this? The villain's not really dead? Or-- horrors!-- there's a new, even worse villain?!? Zoiks! It's that feeling that the story's not over-- that it may, in fact, just be beginning...
And Mia's such a great diabolical villain. Even more diabolical than the Creator. Yes, he's a genocidal megalomaniac, but at the core he's really just a frightened, lonely, hurting little boy. You can't help but feel sorry for him a little. But Mia's an adult-- a conniving, sneaky woman completely in control of everything. And a smug snake to boot. It's really too bad there won't be a sequel because I'll bet it'd be a lot of fun to go up against her. She'd mock you at every turn, taunt your feeble efforts, laugh at your tears. It'd make it all the more satisfying when you wipe that smirk off her face and she delivers her frantic "No! This cannot be! How is this possible?!!" speech.
Ah well, at least we got this little glimpse of her.
Plus, Naija did say she wanted more adventures...
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^ Completely agree with ya.
However, I don't think Naija would be playing in the sequel, seeing she's trapped in that crystal.
Also I'm presuming the whole cutscene with their child has to do with going to the land/fortress of the creator/kid to find some way to stop Mia.
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I don't think she's trapped in any crystal; the title screen is just artistic license at work. Mia wanted Naija to come with her, didn't she? And it would be weird if Lucien just flew off for no reason when Naija is right there.
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I suppose, we don't really have hard evidence.
The only thing that I can think of is that she must be trapped in that crystal to tell Lucien the story THROUGH the crystal. Unless the crystals "saves" her thoughts.
And what use does Naija have if she's constantly unconscious? It's not like she'll work with Mia... unless she'd be brainwashed, which is ANOTHER thing we wouldn't know.
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My interpretation is that the red "save" crystals really saved Naija's memories, and Lucien is accessing them. I agree with Align about the title screen - I think it's just symbolism for Naija's mind being trapped by Mia.
But we've got to keep in Aquaria's tendency towards loose interpretations. It could be that Alec and Derek designed the title screen without anything specific in mind, perhaps they even made it before they thought of what Mia was going to do to Naija.
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And perhaps they didn't. =p
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Registered after reading the topic.
What i wanted to say about the second ending is that, the only two things that i found not right were "to be continued" message (only the message itself) and the lack of full understanding of what's going on without finishing the game without all memories.
I just finished the game for the first time and got all memories on the first playthrough. And while i could guess, what's going on in the second ending, i understood it only after reading the script file for the unfinished ending.
Alec, i do understand the reasoning behind the "to be continued" thing, and i also think that if the ending had nothing like this, it would feel unfinished. But choosing "to be continued" is instantly taken as "okay, so there's definitely 100% going to be a sequel" thing usually. It ended up like "Raziel... welcome to your destiny" in the end of Soul Reaver.
maybe some kind of VO could've helped both things i've pointed out - slightly explained that this is her son, and ended on more of the "but that's a different tale" rather than "come again next week" note.
Beautiful and haunting game, anyway. Thank you
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I really didn't care for the ending myself, though it was more emotional than anything else I've ever played, but I also tend to like happy endings.
What gets me most though are all the variables, you know? We can speculate on Lucien and his Girlfriend, or on Naija and Mia, but there are so many aspects of the ending I think people overlook that I just wish we had more data on, like how Xenogears had a data book released after the game, which tied up a few loose ends. Wasn't necessary, but it was nice.
I personally wanted to know about the four surviving races and what happened to them during the timeskip. Could Lucien's Girlfriend be of Drask's bloodline? The prince was freed before Lucien was born and the girl we saw in the end didn't look much older than Lucien. Or what about the Krotite and Druniad who escaped? And just who were the humans on the surface, the ones that Li was a part of, with all the boxes we see marked with a falcon?
It's been 2 years since I beat the game and I still wonder. The mystery is kind of the fun but, like Naija, I think we all have an innate desire to know the truth and find new discoveries over the horizon.
One thing I don't think anyone's counted on though is Alec's discussion about how the story goes on after we stop playing. That can be interpreted in many ways, but I kind of like the idea. It matches Alec's other discussions like on IA about how games can become living breathing things in their own right and that's kind of what Aquaria is. An entity that has evolved and changed from it's infancy to the present(mods like Beauty and Sacrifice proved that.)
Anyway, I'm starting to go off on a tangent here. I hope Marion is as grand as Aquaria and who knows? Maybe there'll be a hidden Easter egg or nod to Aquaria within it. The story only ends if you let it.