Anyone else really unhappy with the extended ending? (spoilers of course)

[Cerus]

Personally, I was interested in making the statement that there are no happy endings, and that Naija's story carries on - regardless of whether or not we're making sequels.

I can understand that.

Thanks for expanding my perspective, and making a really awesome game! ^^

[Aristobulus]

Nope! Listen again (or cheat and look at scripts/vox/mia-and-naija.txt). The only hint of her evilness before then is the "little boys are trouble" line, which could be interpreted plenty of different ways.

Well, you're absolutely right. Since I can't say that the comment itself is evil enough by its' own merits, I can't say that it alone should put Naija totally on guard. However...Mia does still go into that evil speech, just AFTER telling her she had wiped her mind originally. Which should retroactively color the tone of the otherwise neutral mind wiping comment, and once again Naija should still have been on edge, especially with Mia repeatedly refusing to "let her go".

I still just find it hard to swallow that Naija didn't even attempt to resist Mia - and again, there are ways to resist without having to resort to killing.

[Alphasoldier]

What I don't understand is that you don't even think of the possibility that Mia already had Naija under control.

Mia is someone who's very mysterious but the story that you follow explains a lot about her.
Like that Mia couldn't kill the creator herself so she used a land creature for that, Li. And thus the manipulation of Naija. Heck, she probably even set up earlier meetings between Naija and Li, knowing her manipulative mind. And I wouldn't even be surprised that the time in between the mind wiping and the start of the story is not even a day, though could be. Just pointing out that she's probably powerful enough to make things like that happen.

Knowing... or rather speculating all this it'd be pretty obvious that she either knew Naija wouldn't respond violently or she had already manipulated her before she transported her to that spiral room. Which in fact is almost the same room as you started the story with, what makes it all the more sense if this all was either a dream/vision and Mia already caught her in her sleep. Why else take unnecessary risks?

[Aristobulus]

What I don't understand is that you don't even think of the possibility that Mia already had Naija under control.

Mia is someone who's very mysterious but the story that you follow explains a lot about her.
Like that Mia couldn't kill the creator herself so she used a land creature for that, Li. And thus the manipulation of Naija. Heck, she probably even set up earlier meetings between Naija and Li, knowing her manipulative mind. And I wouldn't even be surprised that the time in between the mind wiping and the start of the story is not even a day, though could be. Just pointing out that she's probably powerful enough to make things like that happen.

This is an interesting theory but I'm not sure if there's anything in game to hint that it's the case - rather that there's nothing saying it DIDN'T happen that way, either. Like - I can find no conflicts with it, but nothing really supporting it either. Interesting, though.

Knowing... or rather speculating all this it'd be pretty obvious that she either knew Naija wouldn't respond violently or she had already manipulated her before she transported her to that spiral room. Which in fact is almost the same room as you started the story with, what makes it all the more sense if this all was either a dream/vision and Mia already caught her in her sleep. Why else take unnecessary risks?

Now this...this is something. I'm rather stunned that I hadn't considered this myself and it - it makes so much sense. If we go with your theory here...this explains quite a few things.

Of note - it answers how Mia could seemingly do the impossible and reshape the entire landscape to have a cave lead where it once did not, in totally warped directions and have it end up just where it started and yet not where it started - how could she? By doing as you say...and not doing that at all, but actually just manipulating Naija's mind, manipulating a dream landscape is certainly a simpler task than reshaping reality.

It also would be consistent with her powers - if she's simply manipulating Naija's mind, and has the power to wipe memories, it makes sense that she would have the power to warp a dreamscape - the consistency is also that Mia is not shown to have the power to reshape reality itself to do what it would take to physically manipulate the cavern, but IS shown to have the power to manipulate mental states. I can go one step further with your theory here and solve yet more of my conflictions - if it's all a dream manipulated by Mia, then it's a simple task to place Naija into a sort of sleep paralysis, which is a real phenomena where a person is in a state between dreaming and awake and are unable to move or control their body - and this would explain why Naija seemingly did not resist Mia - due to being in that sleep paralysis state, she couldn't.

Naija's pleas of "Let me go!" take on a much stronger, and rather more eerie and desperate tone, under this interpretation. Under this, she is not just weakly pleading, but actually physically trying to do something -as is her character-, but unable to control her body and is imploring Mia to not just let her return to her family, but let her go from her grasp and return control of her body.

I would also mention that if it's a dreamscape, there's other things that show this and have it make sense too - for one thing, it begins and ends in the Verse Cave. It is simply to imagine that Naija went here alone to meditate as she often did, and this one time simply fell asleep - and this is where Mia came upon her and manipulated her dream. As a final nod to this, a dreamscape would be where Mia has the natural advantage, in reality Naija would have the advantage, and considering how much Mia overpowers Naija utterly it makes sense that it must be a dream.

I really like your theory - you've done something for me here that hasn't been done in a while - it's rather similar to how I used to think the ending to Final Fantasy IX was complete nonsense and then I read this theory that explained how it was actually hinted at from the Lifa tree and whatnot, and now I look upon that ending with much more respect and understanding than I gained from it myself originally. Here now, I can do the same thing with Aquaria, it's rather fascinating.

This is why I made the thread, thank you.

[Alphasoldier]

I erm... you're welcome? xD

I'm glad you finally found peace with this. ^^

Inevitably however, this is all a theory. This ending is very open, we barely know anything about Mia but that's kind of why I always had peace with the ending besides the 3 words "To be continued" xD

[Alec]

Well I told myself I shouldn't post in this thread, because we left things intentionally open so that people could either guess what our version of the story was, or figure out their own.

But whatever, here's some more detail into how the events make sense in my mind. If you feel like this might ruin your take on the game, feel free to ignore it.

- Where is Li? Probably home tending Lucien. Even in the real world, wives will take ladies' nights out and what have you while their husbands watch the kids.

The game establishes that Li is not exactly the traditional male "breadwinner". Naija's the one who has to go save him, and she's the one that leads him around. Naija's an independent person, and the first ending adds to that. (how she's seemingly disappointed with having to stay home all the time) I think she'd consider following the clues to Mia to be her own business, and wouldn't want to drag Li or the kids in it. There may also have been a sense of wanting to be alone again. (also hinted at in the first ending)

- Why doesn't Li go after Naija? Presumably he did, but not within the short time span of the ending.

The sequel idea would have talked about that further. Li would have been an NPC in that game. I think Li would have tried to find her without much luck, while his son would have unique powers that would have given him greater ability to find Naija.

- And how does Mia overcome Naija? We can argue back and forth about things like Mia drawing her power directly from the Creator while Naija is a generation removed, or whatever, but Naija just found her mother, for crying out loud! The dialogue between them may feel long because you're only watching, but I'm sure Naija's mind is still reeling even as she tries to push away. If you think you could do any better in the same situation, then perhaps you haven't had the life experiences necessary to understand why Naija couldn't, but it's absolutely believable to me.

I think the whole idea of Mia revealing herself slowly to Naija is so that Mia can make her come to her of Naija's own volition. Mothers can be a pretty inescapable force of nature. (one of my fav. fictional characters is Attia from the HBO series "Rome", for example)

Naija is independent and curious about her past. Mia knows the nature of her daughter very well, knows that she is independent and will fight (and kill if it seems necessary) to figure out the truth. Naija's use of the verse is unique in that she can take on the powers of other beings. In some sense the "evil" side of Mia is already in Naija. (The idea of manipulating other people/situations to get to your objective, in some ways the Energy Form represents this. This also plays a bit into how she handles Li, he's more like a pet than a real person. The way I read it, Li is kinda into that.)

To advance in the game the player must kill the ancient demigods and in a sense, they become like Mia in that they are negatively affecting other beings to get more powers so that they can experience more of the game. (learn the whole story)

Players (unless they quit, or chill out for a long time) are inevitably going to want to get to "the next screen". They don't generally worry too much what they have to do, even if it sometimes gives them twinges of regret. (I've seen some players feel bad for killing so many innocent sea creatures, etc)

In our version of the backstory, the City of Mithalas is ruined long before Naija is born. There's an intentional red herring in Mithalas where Naija wonders if she was a princess in Mithalas. To us, she wasn't. Naija and Mia lived in the ruins of the civilizations as Naija was growing up. (Incidentally, we planned a co-op mode for XBLA that would have explored an event that happened in Mithalas right before the ruin, involving new twin sister characters. It would have been kinda cool.)

The Creator made a lot of his creations in the image of his mother and girlfriend (see sunken city, in his mind the two were linked), one of the visual ideas linking the theme of women/mothers being an unstoppable force of nature is the Forest Goddess. The Kelp Forest in general could be seen to represent how love is sometimes chaotic and wild.  First ending explains most of that.

[Alec]

In terms of Mia's capturing of Naija, the idea behind the scene (and one of the things I told Jenna) is that Naija is frozen.

Why is she frozen? I'd like to leave it up to interpretation, but here is my take on it regardless:

IMO, it's all emotion-based. Adding to the above post, Naija is prone to thinking dark thoughts. One very clear example of this in the Cathedral, when Naija is reflecting on being scared of her own dark powers. (oddly enough, I remember at least one person complaining about this line as being inappropriate for kids)

The way I wrote the Mia/Naija scene was like this... imagine you've confronted someone who is aware of all the dark thoughts and self-doubts you've ever had. You can say on the outside "I don't ever want to do anything wrong again", which may very well work on other people... but it won't work on this person. Mia is aware that Naija "craves more adventure". (I also know that this is true of the player, because players generally feel satisfied, but sad when games end. They always want to find more stuff. At many times Naija is both a character and a representation of the audience.) Both characters are aware of the costs of adventure. (danger, hurting others, learning/seeing things you wish you hadn't) Naija (the player) is in this location because she wants (they want) to learn more, experience more. (players have to go to further lengths to find the 3 memories to unlock the second ending)

One of the themes in the game is bi-polar disorder. The Creator is the example of two characters in one - a little boy combined with some kind of insanely powerful being. The conflict between the two of them is what drives the Creator's actions. Another way to read into this the idea of the creative aspects of making a game fighting with the business side of making a game. There are harsh realities that you run into when you're trying to create anything good. The Creator was ashamed by his creations a lot of the time.

It also ties into my own depression, and how Derek and I would get into crazy arguments while working on the game because of it. There were a lot of times when it looked like the game was total garbage, to me. There were a few instances during the development of the game where I tried to take steps towards killing myself, because I felt like I'd never be able to make anything good. One of the most dramatic times involved friends on irc calling the cops to track me down while I was out trying to convince myself to jump off a bridge. (if anyone's wondering why Derek may not feel comfortable working with me again, that might have a lot to do with it)

I hate mentioning that, because it might be seen as attention whoring or something. I'm mentioning it because it strikes at what I like about Aquaria. It really is (to me at least) a contrast of dark and light - the idea that you can be living in a really beautiful world and still feel like shit. The idea that eventually, somehow you will find a way to fuck up your own plans - that things about your personality and the actions you've taken will eventually come back to bite you in the ass.

Naija is both innocent (at least at the beginning of the game) and extremely dangerous. The Mia character (thematically) is almost not so much a separate character as the idea of Naija's darker side personified. There are reasons why Mia is the way she is, and some of that is very, very vaguely hinted at. (and would have been explored much further in the sequel)

[Alec]

Additionally, to anyone that cares, the reason I call Marian a spiritual successor is because it deals with similar themes.

What I'm excited about is that it expands on them, and challenges some of them. I think it'll be really interesting, if I can ever finish it.

[Aristobulus]

The game establishes that Li is not exactly the traditional male "breadwinner". Naija's the one who has to go save him, and she's the one that leads him around. Naija's an independent person, and the first ending adds to that. (how she's seemingly disappointed with having to stay home all the time) I think she'd consider following the clues to Mia to be her own business, and wouldn't want to drag Li or the kids in it. There may also have been a sense of wanting to be alone again. (also hinted at in the first ending)

I have to admit, that's one thing I liked about Naija - I certainly wasn't expecting it before I played the game, but she really is a strong feminine character, and she achieves this without becoming a generic overdone badass femme fatale that shouts about how wearing corsets is what masochists should do.

Naija is independent and curious about her past. Mia knows the nature of her daughter very well, knows that she is independent and will fight (and kill if it seems necessary) to figure out the truth. Naija's use of the verse is unique in that she can take on the powers of other beings. In some sense the "evil" side of Mia is already in Naija. (The idea of manipulating other people/situations to get to your objective, in some ways the Energy Form represents this. This also plays a bit into how she handles Li, he's more like a pet than a real person. The way I read it, Li is kinda into that.)

Perhaps during the game, but people forming an actual family complete with children, with their pet is not that common. Then again, there's always S&M...but that's a bit more over the top than I see either Naija or Li behaving - and they seemed like they really cared for one another. And yet another "then again" I speak as one not of the S&M persuasion, so really perhaps I am speaking too negatively from a biased position.

In our version of the backstory, the City of Mithalas is ruined long before Naija is born. There's an intentional red herring in Mithalas where Naija wonders if she was a princess in Mithalas. To us, she wasn't. Naija and Mia lived in the ruins of the civilizations as Naija was growing up. (Incidentally, we planned a co-op mode for XBLA that would have explored an event that happened in Mithalas right before the ruin, involving new twin sister characters. It would have been kinda cool.)

This is interesting. I was always assuming that Naija and her mother DID live in the city with other Mithalans, they were just normal commoners - not royalty, which you can tell by the location of Naija's old home - and they just managed to survive the city being ruined.  The version where they lived in an already ruined city makes sense, too, however - it explains how they could have survived the ruination (by simply not being there when it fell), and explains why Naija would have seemingly been born in the abyss and not the city limits themselves.

Another interesting personal note - I discovered the castle and the princess' room before I discovered Naija's old home because I wasn't aware you could actually go into the buildings, so I was pleasantly surprised by that - I liked that, for a change, the main character that is a member of an ancient and lost race is NOT actually royalty, but rather appeared to be just a common member. This is one reason I prefer the interpretation of wherein Mia and Naija lived with other Mithalans and were survivors of the fallen city - it means that atleast Naija is more somewhat average than elite and special, and simply rose to meet her challenges rather than being Hercules with an unfair advantage. However, it seems this interpretation has less evidence going for it than the one where they simply took up residence in an already destroyed city...

I hate mentioning that, because it might be seen as attention whoring or something. I'm mentioning it because it strikes at what I like about Aquaria. It really is (to me at least) a contrast of dark and light - the idea that you can be living in a really beautiful world and still feel like shit. The idea that eventually, somehow you will find a way to fuck up your own plans - that things about your personality and the actions you've taken will eventually come back to bite you in the ass.

I can assure you that I, at least, do not take it as attention whoring. It's an important - if distressing - note and significant to the entire point of the discussion, which is various reasons for certain things in the game happening as they do. I will say you achieved what you set out to, with Aquaria, it definitely portrays all that you have named there.

I would love to be able to comment more on your own insightful perspective, but really - what you have said is mostly self contained. There is little I could add to it, and there is little present for a debate, it is mostly relatively straight forward facts or subjective perspectives outlaid in a way that is simply portraying your own take and perspective, not offering an argument. This is not a negative thing, simply a state of the way things are.

To explain, you seem to perceive games and storylines and characters/etc. on a much more psychological level than I do. That is not to say that I couldn't discuss the psychology present in a character, but rather that you do so from a much more meta perspective, and I am normally one to approach games from a rather straightforward stance of discussing what the characters and storyline present themselves, not so much to dwell on the player or the creators themselves. As an example, when I have discussed Mass Effect in the past, I would refer to events in games, and not often to the real human writers, but stick strictly to the lore as it was. It is just my own style, and I am not professing one to be better than the other.

[Alec]

I dunno, in my mind the game works on both levels.

But I might just be stupid as shit, who knows.

[Sabreur]

I had two problems with it.  The first issue for me was that by this point I felt Naija had damn well earned a happy ending.  The second issue is that it just didn't feel like an ending.  The best comparison I can give is that it's like the game ending after the Sunken City.  Li's been abducted, I guess we just go home and be lonely. 

Wait, no, we kill a damned AQUATIC DEITY to get him back!

I want to see Mia destroyed.  I'm actually a little alarmed by it - I don't usually hate anyone, let alone fictional characters.  But she's damn well earned it. 

The one point in the ending's favor was Naija's son setting off.  If he's anything like his mother, Mia is in for a world of hurt.

[Aristobulus]

While I can now rationalize the ending so that it's not so out of left field, I do agree that it doesn't feel as much like an ending as much as it does an intermission or halfway point.

Despite that the ending makes more sense to me now, I still think I prefer the normal ending and would still have rather the "true" ending not exist precisely because it, in a way, just raises more questions and starts more threads that deserve to be followed up on, and while the normal ending doesn't answer everything, it at least manages to feel like an ending. Sure, we're left wondering things such as more stuff about Mia, what the land of the world is like, what Li's history and society really is like, and such, but that being unanswered doesn't make the game itself or Naija's story feel incomplete, so the ending is still satisfying enough.

[Alec]

I want to see Mia destroyed.  I'm actually a little alarmed by it - I don't usually hate anyone, let alone fictional characters.  But she's damn well earned it. 

That's interesting. Those feelings would have played into a sequel in interesting ways too...

[Aristobulus]

Since you have no plans to actually make a sequel, can you at least release what the story likely would've been if you did make one?

[Alphasoldier]

I'd rather wait in the silent hope that there WILL be a sequel than to get the story written out.