My impressions (6 hour mark)

[Gnerma]

Minor ability and obstacle related spoilers follow. If you've played 3 - 6 hours of the game you've probably seen it all yourself.

Hi guys. I bought the full version of the game after enjoying the demo and have played for 6 hours now and wanted to share my thoughts so far. Everything others have said before me about the art and overall feel of the game are spot on. Derek's underwater fantasy land is as lush and alive as I could have hoped. Controlling the character is also very sharp and satisfying. I never feel like I'm fighting the controls. This is notable because a lot of indie games manage to have controls that are just plain "off". I find progressing through the world very fun and satisfying. The idea of setting up Naija's home as a place to demonstrate and apply all of the core abilities you obtain is an excellent one.

Onto the other side of the coin (I bet you saw this coming a mile away). I've spent about the last 3 hours of gameplay hopelessly lost. Well, not lost in that I don't know where I am, but I am at a total loss as to what I need to do or where I need to go to obtain my next form or ability. I have energy, fishy, and plant forms. I need to be able to see in the dark, get past steam vents, and (maybe) swim up strong currents. I strongly suspect that obtaining one will lead to the others but therein lies the rub. I'm somebody who has been playing games for decades and over that period of time have gotten very good at thinking like you need to think in gaming situations like this. As most of you probably know there is a sort of arcane language that games speak to gamers with. Things that may seem obvious to a veteran gamer like me might not be obvious at all to a beginner. Point being is, if you've managed to stump me even after I work on the problem for 3 hours straight, something somewhere has broken down. Or I could totally be on the wrong track and if that is the case please point and laugh at me. Keep in mind I'm not asking for help. If you know what I should do next please do not post it. This thread isn't about me being stuck, it's about why I believe I'm stuck and how I think it could be improved.

I don't see the problem as being with the game itself, the problem is the map. This very thing has been pointed out in the few Aquaria reviews I've read (both linked from this very forum). The map just doesn't do enough to clue you in on where you've been and what you've seen. It needs work guys.

First of all, I don't get the minimap. It illuminates a very limited area around the character, not enough for it ever to be useful. Plus, the little it does show is vague and stylized. Add to that the large icons indicating area transitions that are usually too numerous and bunch up all around the edges. In any given area these may indicate that there are (for example) 3 transitions and a save point somewhere in the general direction of the northeast. This might be useful if you could swim in a straight line in that direction, but Aquaria just isn't designed like that. So I end up never using it, it's just not helpful. This means I'm constantly dropping to the world map. This presents a break in the flow of the game, but one that might not be particularly avoidable and common enough in games of this type (IE Super Metroid). If it were up to me, I'd just get rid of the mini map. Barring that I recommend a toggleable semi transparent Diablo style overlay to replace the mini map. It would show the same depth of information as the world map (as well as the additions described below) except it would only show the current area. It's purpose would be to get your bearings while you swim towards a known goal or some dark space to explore.

Onto the world map. This is where in my opinion, the breakdown occurs. I'm sure we've all played at least one chapter of the Silent Hill games. When you first set out to explore the town of Silent Hill your map is wide open showing all streets as passable, but when you come across places where the road is impassable the game writes in in for you. This is to prevent you from having to either make your own map, or if you're not that type just using trial and error until you memorize which ways are passable or not. Aquaria's world map needs one of two things badly. Either a notation system for the map that allows you to place points of interest and write or type text associated with said point. Twilight Princess the recent DS Zelda game has a good example of such a system. This sort of setup can be fun and satisfying. Or the following additions:

• An arrow indication an impassable current and which way it flows.
• An icon that indicates a blue crystal/steam vent
• A different coloration to indicate darkness.
• Area transitions coded depending on if you've passed through them or not. I picture a bar of color across each. Red for unpassed, gray for passed. This would also solve the problem of not recognizing an area transition on the map as has happened to me a few times so far. Area transitions wouldn't necessarily need to be drawn in until the player eliminates the fog of war immediately in front of them.
• Fog of war status needs to be shown for all areas of the map at all times.

Add to that list any ability focused obstacles that I haven't encountered yet of course. With these additions I could open my game up right now, and probably with a quick scan find an area transition I'd totally overlooked somehow, or find a part of a familiar area that I had in my head was impassable for whatever reason, but wasn't. Or find a block of fog of war I had overlooked somehow.

I lay this out so explicitly because I personally don't like it when somebody comes to me with a problem with something I've created but can't quite articulate what it is or suggest any modifications that might help me wrap my mind around the problem they had or put me on the right track. I have a great deal of respect for both of you guys and think you've made something ambitious and amazing. I despair that the map has been such a big problem for me (and thus  likely many others) but delight in the fact that it seems like a relatively easy problem to fix. Thanks for reading.

(No doubt many edits will follow as find dozens of the glaring editing errors that I'm notorious for.)

[Glamador]

You're map complaints are agreed with by a great many of us here I'm sure.  But as much as I felt lost in the beginning, as soon as I got through Mathala (which is to the east, hard to miss the architecture) I felt like I could go anywhere.  And once that happened I just had fun exploring and the map really didn't need to be much more than it is.  Plus if you've already got Nature and Fish form you must have found your way well enough.  Get through the Mathalas Cathedral and I guarentee you those issues will seem much more bearable.

[Alec]

Fog of war status needs to be shown for all areas of the map at all times.

This is something technical that we couldn't find a good work around for, unfortunately. We'd love to show it at all times, but it makes the map screen chug at like 1 fps.

Anyways thanks for the feedback. I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy the game.

[Alphasoldier]

You make all very good point, but some things are just impossible. When looking at scripting and the map editor, it is almost impossible.
Maybe it could be a idea for the map that when you click on a certain piece of the map that it shows the fog of war on that map, but that too is propably pretty damned hard.

About every Icon you want, YOU could note down things too, it's what people used to do with the old harder games. Be glad you have a map at all, this game would be WAY hard without map.

Further, like I said many many many times, this game is meant for the small details, if you would pay good attention to the details, you'd know which way to go and would find alot more and enjoy more of the small details that Derek AND Alec have put into this game. Normal exploring would be an idea too.

If you're lost while exploring, do what you would do when in a maze, keep going by one side of the wall, eventually you'll find currents and impassable spots, go around those too. Maybe NOTE them down.

[Alec]

We actually had an old build that showed currents, but it didn't seem like it added much at the time.

The other problem with that is that the game doesn't have information about all the other maps (other than "fog of war" and the locations of map markers that are saved when they're discovered) Its not possible for the game to know where currents are on maps that you're not on, unless it was to load all the maps and extract certain data from them. I'm not really sure how that would fit into the system, such as it is.

But also I feel that the game is quite playable with the tools that it comes with. The hints are vague, but intentionally so.

(i.e. the hint outside Home Waters that says "go right")

[Gnerma]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I'm sorry that you didn't enjoy the game.

It's not that I don't like the game Alec. Not remotely I think the game is great. Think of it like when you see an otherwise gorgeous women with an extremely unfortunate feature. You think to yourself sadly, "If only she didn't have that Gorbachev like birthmark on her cheek."

You make all very good point, but some things are just impossible. When looking at scripting and the map editor, it is almost impossible.
Maybe it could be a idea for the map that when you click on a certain piece of the map that it shows the fog of war on that map, but that too is propably pretty damned hard.

This may be true, but nothing is impossible when you've programmed the app and could reprogram it to a degree if you choose to. Alec seems to feel that the map is good enough though so you're probably right in that nothing is going to change.

About every Icon you want, YOU could note down things too, it's what people used to do with the old harder games. Be glad you have a map at all, this game would be WAY hard without map.

If you recall I did mention this in my post, yes you could make your own map. But if you ask me, if the player draws a map for a game that has a comprehensive in game map that map has failed to do its job. The other suggestion I made (about the user controlled points for the in game map) is a good compromise and would add another gameplay element that would enhance exploration. As it is, drawing the large amount of irregular terrain that is present in Aquaria is a no go in my book. This isn't exactly a graph paper friendly game.

Further, like I said many many many times, this game is meant for the small details, if you would pay good attention to the details, you'd know which way to go and would find alot more and enjoy more of the small details that Derek AND Alec have put into this game. Normal exploring would be an idea too.

I've explored everything there is to explore up to this point, and I've enjoyed it. To be fair some of those 3 hours were spent in areas I hadn't been in yet, including the city. But I always ended up running into the ability obstacles eventually as listed above.

But also I feel that the game is quite playable with the tools that it comes with. The hints are vague, but intentionally so.

(i.e. the hint outside Home Waters that says "go right")

I have been all through the city, and found and placed one of the round stone tablets. There is a steam vent at the top of the long shaft that looks like it has a boss encounter behind it, but who knows. I assume the other tablet I need is behind there, I don't know. Maybe I already have the tools at my disposal to get past there, if so I haven't figured out what.

As I said earlier, you don't seem to think this is a particularly big problem, and thats cool. But it is getting brought up in just about every pro/con piece I read about the game so I'm not alone on this. I'm not going to bust your balls about it any further. The whole point of this was to let you know just how big of a problem it has been for me with a hope that you might consider some revision of the map for possible future SKUs of Aquaria (I'm thinking XBLA or PSN especially).

[inkblob]

the minimap I didn't really even look at until later on in the game, and then I was always referring to it for 'vague information'   I found there was a certain amount of grinding in this game, going back and forth, fishing, cooking etc, but lots of those sessions were good for pacing in between bosses. I did a lot of fishing and cooking then save, then go tackle a boss. if it didn't work out, or not to my total satisfaction ( re: huge usage of food ) then I'd try over.  also if you had to do some fishing and cooking it was a general sign that you had to warm up for a boss anyways.  I had a little notepad beside me for taking notes throughout the game, writing down songs I found, notes of items I saw but couldn't get to for whatever reason, super good spots for harvesting leaves etc, and then would plan out routes based on that so I didn't spend an overt amount of time just spinning wheels.

with the map, I didn't realize right away that you could zoom out, I thought you were stuck in the default view when you opened it up and that made a hella difference. there was quite a lot of things that I found out halfway through the game actually that would have helped early on and a few things that I found out after I finished that would have been pretty helpful, but I think that also speaks to how freaking jammed packed this game is. those are good suggestions for the map, especially the blue crystals, but possibly it was designed so you'd have to make notes, either mental or on paper.

[Alec]

This may be true, but nothing is impossible when you've programmed the app and could reprogram it to a degree if you choose to.

Its true that I could rewrite the game to do anything. (I could make it Star Wars Episode 7 as well) The problem is its not something easily done, as per the reasons explained above. I'm also not convinced that it would necessarily make the game that much "better".

As I said earlier, you don't seem to think this is a particularly big problem, and thats cool. But it is getting brought up in just about every pro/con piece I read about the game so I'm not alone on this. I'm not going to bust your balls about it any further. The whole point of this was to let you know just how big of a problem it has been for me with a hope that you might consider some revision of the map for possible future SKUs of Aquaria (I'm thinking XBLA or PSN especially).

I don't think a console port is in the cards for us at this point, so that doesn't really motivate me. I think doing a PC patch with some map improvements would be good, if there were improvements that could be made without having to rewrite a large chunk of the program from scratch and if they were proven that they would improve the experience.

Another big problem with rewriting the world map system to meet some of the desired requirements, is that it would involve people with existing save files losing their "fog of war" progress. (if i changed the fog of war rendering over to something more optimal so that i could display all of it at once)

In your case it sounds like you haven't got past the Mithalas throne room, in which case the world/mini map (even if it had the changes you suggested) wouldn't improve your experience there any, as the solution is within the same level. (bringing the Prince's seal to the throne room and sitting on the throne)

[Alphasoldier]

I meant with making the notes like write down (Example: eastern part of the Open Waters) where about you find things you can't go past or haven't got that yet, or just showing curents, and no I'm not saying that you should draw a whole map yourself, it's what we have simple programs like paint for.

And yes, I know that those things could be added, even though Alec has barely any time and that it'll also be a pain in the ass to do so, but... just accept what it has and enjoy the game, it's all what I'm saying, seeing it -IS- a great and awesome game. Not every game's perfect. =p

[Glamador]

In fact, very very very few games are perfect.  Ocarina of Time, Super Smash Bros. Melee, and Resident Evil 4 come to mind.  But Aquaria is terrific despite its flaws.

[Xiagan]

I have been all through the city, and found and placed one of the round stone tablets. There is a steam vent at the top of the long shaft that looks like it has a boss encounter behind it, but who knows. I assume the other tablet I need is behind there, I don't know. Maybe I already have the tools at my disposal to get past there, if so I haven't figured out what.

By stone tablets you don't mean this coin-shaped thing you put in a chair/throne? If you do mean it, there aren't more of them around, you just have to do what you usually do with chairs...

[Gnerma]

Keep in mind I'm not asking for help. If you know what I should do next please do not post it.

[Alphasoldier]

*kicks Xiagan down and steals his fridge*

Some people don't want help.

I do when I'm stuck on a thing for a long while though. But he's not me. 

[Xiagan]

Keep in mind I'm not asking for help. If you know what I should do next please do not post it.

Well, sorry, I overread that. But I wasn't exactly sure if you meant it and if you meant it, it was so off the track, you would've spend maybe hours for nothing.

Will kept my mouth shut now. 

[Drift]

Keep in mind I'm not asking for help. If you know what I should do next please do not post it.

Well, sorry, I overread that. But I wasn't exactly sure if you meant it and if you meant it, it was so off the track, you would've spend maybe hours for nothing.

Will kept my mouth shut now. 

I still love you Xiagan!