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Author Topic: Subtitles Complete & String Bank  (Read 229256 times)

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Offline Alphasoldier

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Re: Subtitles Complete & String Bank
« Reply #90 on: January 25, 2009, 06:26:18 pm »
If so you could always edit the file itself and instead of having things like:

[0:10] Something this that so this bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla.
[0:20]Something more bla.

You could simply change it into:

[0:10]Something this that...
[0:15]...so this bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla.
[0:20]Something more bla.

Doesn't take a genius to find that out. =p
And yeah, the font might be a problem... A big one, I haven't tried myself yet if the font accepts them.
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Stalfos

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Re: Subtitles Complete & String Bank
« Reply #91 on: January 25, 2009, 08:47:41 pm »
In fact, translation is more a problem to my opinion... we can always change to font support of the game, but if there is no translated files :S

Anyway, this is all still work in progress, and I ought to be beta-tested thoroughly (we'll see where sentence are too long, timing problem with the vocals, etc...)

Offline Alphasoldier

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Re: Subtitles Complete & String Bank
« Reply #92 on: February 02, 2009, 12:06:04 pm »
Ohnoyoujustdidnot.

Either way, I already asked around with loads of other people and they agree with me too.
As I said to you dozens times before, when making a story, you can go creative style on the translation, have new words, use new sentences...
But when you make subtitles, they are supposed to be as near as to the literal translation as possible, they are subtitles, they're supposed to show what the person is exactly saying. But it still has to be grammatically correct, which is the hard part.

I say there's nothing wrong with the way you translate and I'd say keep it up with your study, it's very helpful, but subtitles are subtitles, not stories.
What if an English study book would use entirely different words for some things, you learn it wrong then. Which is plain wrong. Yes?

Finally, please don't presume my translation is lesser, the fact that you are following a translation/interpreter study does not mean you instantly know it better than me. And yes, I'm sorry I'm such a hard nut with the negative criticism, but when you keep up something I already told you a dozen times that it can be better the other way, with legible reasons, and you keep going, then yes, I'll keep going too.

If you want, I'll put some examples here of what you translated, but I don't think I even want to go down to that level.
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Stalfos

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Re: Subtitles Complete & String Bank
« Reply #93 on: February 04, 2009, 06:06:42 am »
Ohnoyoujustdidnot.

Either way, I already asked around with loads of other people and they agree with me too.
As I said to you dozens times before, when making a story, you can go creative style on the translation, have new words, use new sentences...
But when you make subtitles, they are supposed to be as near as to the literal translation as possible, they are subtitles, they're supposed to show what the person is exactly saying. But it still has to be grammatically correct, which is the hard part.

I say there's nothing wrong with the way you translate and I'd say keep it up with your study, it's very helpful, but subtitles are subtitles, not stories.
What if an English study book would use entirely different words for some things, you learn it wrong then. Which is plain wrong. Yes?

Finally, please don't presume my translation is lesser, the fact that you are following a translation/interpreter study does not mean you instantly know it better than me. And yes, I'm sorry I'm such a hard nut with the negative criticism, but when you keep up something I already told you a dozen times that it can be better the other way, with legible reasons, and you keep going, then yes, I'll keep going too.

If you want, I'll put some examples here of what you translated, but I don't think I even want to go down to that level.
I'd take a wild guess that you were adressing some "now-deleted" reply...

Translating something wrong is... wrong. It takes away the sense. Still, a non-litteral translation is called a "paraphrase". Some Bible are like that and... you cannot make much sense of it, compared to english version (whatever litteral translation). I could show some exemple of paraphrase contradiction... but this isn't a theology lesson! :D

Offline Xiagan

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Re: Subtitles Complete & String Bank
« Reply #94 on: February 04, 2009, 11:26:02 am »
I'd take a wild guess that you were adressing some "now-deleted" reply...
Ah, now I'm less confused. Because Alphas post wasn't making that much sense this way...


In a translation it is important to translate the sense and not the words.

The English translation for "da liegt der Hund begraben" is "there lies the dog buried" but that's not what it meant. The meaning of "da liegt der Hund begraben" is "There's the rub" or "That's the crux of the matter".
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Offline Alphasoldier

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Re: Subtitles Complete & String Bank
« Reply #95 on: February 04, 2009, 12:08:44 pm »
Indeed, the guy must've deleted his response.Ass

Either way, the point is, this is making subtitles, not making a complete translation.

Of course, when there are sayings that when literally translated to another language don't make sense, you change it to the saying you have in that language. But again, this is just a subtitle, you need to be as literal and grammatically correct as possible. Or am I wrong there?
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Offline RobertWalker

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Re: Subtitles Complete & String Bank
« Reply #96 on: February 04, 2009, 08:46:26 pm »
Subtitles should generally be literal, unless the result would not make sense. To take the inverse scenario, a literal translation from Spanish of "Sacarse el gordo" would be "To draw the fat one," which makes no sense at all in English. A subtitle of an expression like that would instead use an English equivalent, such as "To hit the jackpot."

Offline Xiagan

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Re: Subtitles Complete & String Bank
« Reply #97 on: February 04, 2009, 09:35:19 pm »
To draw the fat one is hitting the jackpot? That shows some interesting cultural habits. :D Are a lot of spanish guys migrating to the US? just kidding of course ;)
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Offline Align

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Re: Subtitles Complete & String Bank
« Reply #98 on: February 05, 2009, 12:15:25 am »
Does it refer to something like lottery?

Offline Alphasoldier

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Re: Subtitles Complete & String Bank
« Reply #99 on: February 05, 2009, 01:19:07 am »
Yes, I know, the  weird sayings of every culture, but I'm not talking about that any more.

I'm talking about the normal words you translate and have to make sense, then you have to be as literal as possible, right?
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Omg_audio

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Re: Subtitles Complete & String Bank
« Reply #100 on: February 05, 2009, 05:00:54 pm »
I was the one who deleted the post Alphasoldier was replying to. Because I didn't feel like causing anymore drama.
And yes of course you should translate as many words as literally as possible.
But sometimes it just sounds much better when you use different words which express a similar or basically the same thing.

And I will quote your arguments: "It's something someone says, it's not just a translation, you can't change the words someone said."
and: "It's old English, you can't translate it into modern language."

How else are you going to translate it into Dutch then? You have to use grammatically correct sentences, still.
And the whole idea behind a translation is that the ones playing the game understand what is said.
Not every word has to be the same. So in fact you can 'change the words someone said' in that way.

I admit I made mistakes in my translations but you tend to bash on people until they refuse to put up with your obstinacy.
Language is something you can work magic with, you can change sentence structures, words, etc. and still have a perfectly correct
and similar sentence.

I'm not the one creating Dutch expressions that do not exist at all by translating English expressions literally into Dutch, that's still you.
Nor am I the one translating 'sealoaf' to 'zeewier', which is Dutch for 'kelp.'

Some English word combinations can be translated as an expression in Dutch. And vice versa, some English expressions are translated as normal Dutch sentences without expressions.

I've found a lot of spelling mistakes in your translations.
And no, I didn't correct them.

I honestly don't feel like being a part of this translation work anymore after the criticism you've given me.
I can't stand it when one of my talents and passions is enjoying and being good at working with languages and then someone decides to completely
hammer on every little mistake I've made. That just ticks me off.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 05:10:28 pm by Omg_audio »

Offline Alphasoldier

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Re: Subtitles Complete & String Bank
« Reply #101 on: February 05, 2009, 05:31:37 pm »
I was the one who deleted the post Alphasoldier was replying to. Because I didn't feel like causing anymore drama.
And yes of course you should translate as many words as literally as possible.
But sometimes it just sounds much better when you use different words which express a similar or basically the same thing.

And I will quote your arguments: "It's something someone says, it's not just a translation, you can't change the words someone said."
and: "It's old English, you can't translate it into modern language."

How else are you going to translate it into Dutch then? You have to use grammatically correct sentences, still.
And the whole idea behind a translation is that the ones playing the game understand what is said.
Not every word has to be the same. So in fact you can 'change the words someone said' in that way.

I admit I made mistakes in my translations but you tend to bash on people until they refuse to put up with your obstinacy.
Language is something you can work magic with, you can change sentence structures, words, etc. and still have a perfectly correct
and similar sentence.

I'm not the one creating Dutch expressions that do not exist at all by translating English expressions literally into Dutch, that's still you.
Nor am I the one translating 'sealoaf' to 'zeewier', which is Dutch for 'kelp.'

Some English word combinations can be translated as an expression in Dutch. And vice versa, some English expressions are translated as normal Dutch sentences without expressions.

I've found a lot of spelling mistakes in your translations.
And no, I didn't correct them.

I honestly don't feel like being a part of this translation work anymore after the criticism you've given me.
I can't stand it when one of my talents and passions is enjoying and being good at working with languages and then someone decides to completely
hammer on every little mistake I've made. That just ticks me off.
First, I'll quote this so you won't remove it again.
Second, I know I'm not the greatest at any language, however, I am good in logic.
I personally get annoyed to death by horrible subtitles that say something but in reality means something entirely different, that was the only thing I ever wanted to make clear to you. Instead, you go in full reverse, defend everything I say while you say I am the evil and obstinate one. That's just wrong.
Yeah, my grammar isn't great, especially not in Dutch, I simply suck at it. And the kelp mistake? It was simply because I didn't know the actual word for it and was going to ask you anyway. Like you said: "I can't stand it when one of my talents and passions is enjoying and being good at working with languages and then someone decides to completely
hammer on every little mistake I've made. That just ticks me off."
Don't do something to someone else when you don't like it yourself.

I'll once again state the thing I have been stating about a 100 times. These are subtitles, not a normal translation.
Oh, and the fact that it's old English? Means it can be a bit broken Dutch, cause, as a translator, you should also know old Dutch.

Finally, don't be a drama queen, I only told you one thing that you refused to accept, so I said it over and over, instead of looking at it from my point of view and get out of that little 'I know it better anyway'-corner of yours, you're just calling me obstinate.

I already told you you'd do perfectly fine when translating books, people, and hell I know what more, but subtitles are none of those things.
God sees and knows everything, but at least he won't gossip about it.

Omg_audio

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Re: Subtitles Complete & String Bank
« Reply #102 on: February 05, 2009, 05:39:55 pm »
I was the one who deleted the post Alphasoldier was replying to. Because I didn't feel like causing anymore drama.
And yes of course you should translate as many words as literally as possible.
But sometimes it just sounds much better when you use different words which express a similar or basically the same thing.

And I will quote your arguments: "It's something someone says, it's not just a translation, you can't change the words someone said."
and: "It's old English, you can't translate it into modern language."

How else are you going to translate it into Dutch then? You have to use grammatically correct sentences, still.
And the whole idea behind a translation is that the ones playing the game understand what is said.
Not every word has to be the same. So in fact you can 'change the words someone said' in that way.

I admit I made mistakes in my translations but you tend to bash on people until they refuse to put up with your obstinacy.
Language is something you can work magic with, you can change sentence structures, words, etc. and still have a perfectly correct
and similar sentence.

I'm not the one creating Dutch expressions that do not exist at all by translating English expressions literally into Dutch, that's still you.
Nor am I the one translating 'sealoaf' to 'zeewier', which is Dutch for 'kelp.'

Some English word combinations can be translated as an expression in Dutch. And vice versa, some English expressions are translated as normal Dutch sentences without expressions.

I've found a lot of spelling mistakes in your translations.
And no, I didn't correct them.

I honestly don't feel like being a part of this translation work anymore after the criticism you've given me.
I can't stand it when one of my talents and passions is enjoying and being good at working with languages and then someone decides to completely
hammer on every little mistake I've made. That just ticks me off.
First, I'll quote this so you won't remove it again.
Second, I know I'm not the greatest at any language, however, I am good in logic.
I personally get annoyed to death by horrible subtitles that say something but in reality means something entirely different, that was the only thing I ever wanted to make clear to you. Instead, you go in full reverse, defend everything I say while you say I am the evil and obstinate one. That's just wrong.
Yeah, my grammar isn't great, especially not in Dutch, I simply suck at it. And the kelp mistake? It was simply because I didn't know the actual word for it and was going to ask you anyway. Like you said: "I can't stand it when one of my talents and passions is enjoying and being good at working with languages and then someone decides to completely
hammer on every little mistake I've made. That just ticks me off."
Don't do something to someone else when you don't like it yourself.

I'll once again state the thing I have been stating about a 100 times. These are subtitles, not a normal translation.
Oh, and the fact that it's old English? Means it can be a bit broken Dutch, cause, as a translator, you should also know old Dutch.

Finally, don't be a drama queen, I only told you one thing that you refused to accept, so I said it over and over, instead of looking at it from my point of view and get out of that little 'I know it better anyway'-corner of yours, you're just calling me obstinate.

I already told you you'd do perfectly fine when translating books, people, and hell I know what more, but subtitles are none of those things.

It's not 'old English' and I'll give you an example of 'old Dutch':

"Hebban olla vogala nestas hagunnan hinase hic enda thu uuat unbidan uue nu."

That's old Dutch. So just please stop calling the subtitles old English. It's English used in a fantasy context.

And yes I know I'm stubborn as well.
But in the end I just kept saying: "Okay, whatever you want, change it.",
because I just couldn't be assed with your ranting anymore.

I don't understand why you just didn't say: "I'm not happy enough about your translations I'll do it completely by myself again."
Because obviously you weren't satisfied with them.

For the future of the Dutch translations.
Why even add them to the game?
My translations aren't good enough apparently.
Nor will your translations be.

Bit-blot might as well hire professional translators, seeing as user-made translations will most probably still
contain a lot of spelling and grammar mistakes or just some words that will make the attentive reader go "ouch!".
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 05:54:15 pm by Omg_audio »

Offline RobertWalker

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Re: Subtitles Complete & String Bank
« Reply #103 on: February 05, 2009, 05:55:16 pm »
I think some may be misconstruing my intent. I'm not trying to be involved in whatever dispute is going on; I'm simply trying to establish what the mindset should be for those wishing to create translations. In the case of the Dutch translation, I think you guys probably should seek out a third translator to mediate, or at least make it so that you can vote on a translation and not end up in a deadlock.

I think most of us are on the same page here but may not realize it because of the difficulty in communicating effectively in an online forum. So let me just spell it out very explicitly below.

The real goal of translation is to make the experience for a non-English speaker as close as possible to that of an English speaker. Therefore, a translator should do whatever he or she can to accomplish that. Usually, this means translating literally whenever it makes sense. By "translating literally," I of course do not mean "word-for-word," because this usually will produce nonsensical grammar, but I mean, "striving to select the most accurate translation."

For example: The game uses a particularly vivid adjective to describe Naija's reaction to the zombie mermen: "disgusting." One should strive to find a translation which means "disgusting," not "ugly" or "unappetizing." To do less would deprive the reader of the true meaning the original text is trying to convey: a sense of revulsion at the sight of these creatures.

Sometimes no exact translation is possible. Perhaps the target language does not have a word that truly conveys the same meaning and sentiment as "disgusting." In that case, the translator should use the best translation they can find that imparts a meaning as close to the original as possible.

Sometimes an exact translation is possible, but results in language which feels unnatural or stilted, or there may be a different translation that feels closer to the intended meaning and tone of the original. Or perhaps you're translating text which uses language which is not typically used in a modern context or which intentionally violates grammar rules. The translator is always justified in departing from an exact translation if it results in text that is closer to the meaning, feeling and emotion of the original. What they should not do is take liberties with the text.

As an example, earlier in this discussion thread, I posted a question to Alec and Derek regarding Naija's exact meaning when she said, "Let me go!" My translation partner pointed out a slightly different possible meaning which could result in a different translation. While I felt that my translation was best, it was important that I recognize the possibility that I may not have been accurately portraying the proper intent in the line. After all, I didn't write the original text, Alec and Derek did. So I posted it here to get the story direct from the horse's mouth. To do otherwise while aware of other possibilities would not have been responsible translating.

If someone disagrees with the above, I am certainly willing to listen to the argument, as long as they're not being argumentative.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 05:58:10 pm by RobertWalker »

Omg_audio

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Re: Subtitles Complete & String Bank
« Reply #104 on: February 05, 2009, 06:03:22 pm »
I think some may be misconstruing my intent. I'm not trying to be involved in whatever dispute is going on; I'm simply trying to establish what the mindset should be for those wishing to create translations. In the case of the Dutch translation, I think you guys probably should seek out a third translator to mediate, or at least make it so that you can vote on a translation and not end up in a deadlock.

I think most of us are on the same page here but may not realize it because of the difficulty in communicating effectively in an online forum. So let me just spell it out very explicitly below.

The real goal of translation is to make the experience for a non-English speaker as close as possible to that of an English speaker. Therefore, a translator should do whatever he or she can to accomplish that. Usually, this means translating literally whenever it makes sense. By "translating literally," I of course do not mean "word-for-word," because this usually will produce nonsensical grammar, but I mean, "striving to select the most accurate translation."

For example: The game uses a particularly vivid adjective to describe Naija's reaction to the zombie mermen: "disgusting." One should strive to find a translation which means "disgusting," not "ugly" or "unappetizing." To do less would deprive the reader of the true meaning the original text is trying to convey: a sense of revulsion at the sight of these creatures.

Sometimes no exact translation is possible. Perhaps the target language does not have a word that truly conveys the same meaning and sentiment as "disgusting." In that case, the translator should use the best translation they can find that imparts a meaning as close to the original as possible.

Sometimes an exact translation is possible, but results in language which feels unnatural or stilted, or there may be a different translation that feels closer to the intended meaning and tone of the original. Or perhaps you're translating text which uses language which is not typically used in a modern context or which intentionally violates grammar rules. The translator is always justified in departing from an exact translation if it results in text that is closer to the meaning, feeling and emotion of the original. What they should not do is take liberties with the text.

As an example, earlier in this discussion thread, I posted a question to Alec and Derek regarding Naija's exact meaning when she said, "Let me go!" My translation partner pointed out a slightly different possible meaning which could result in a different translation. While I felt that my translation was best, it was important that I recognize the possibility that I may not have been accurately portraying the proper intent in the line. After all, I didn't write the original text, Alec and Derek did. So I posted it here to get the story direct from the horse's mouth. To do otherwise while aware of other possibilities would not have been responsible translating.

If someone disagrees with the above, I am certainly willing to listen to the argument, as long as they're not being argumentative.

I'm thankful for your contribution and you're completely right.
Alphasoldier and I were both wrong in our own way.
So I guess I'm done here. Alpha can do whatever he want with the translation.
I hope I won't be let down when it gets implemented, though. (Even though I probably will
because I'd prefer a different translation. But that's not the point.)

Alphasoldier is very driven himself.
I just can't cope with a partner that isn't able to criticise my work in a slightly more appropriate manner.

And regarding the 'getting a third translator' remark. I completely agree on that. But trust me,
it's extremely hard to get one, as Alphasoldier stated before.