Why I like this game, de-installed it, but then istalled it again **spoilers**)

[hanzo]

I was finally able to beat the Mithalas god, I got the beast form, got the spirit form, got the pirana pet from the frogman, went up until I reached the sun temple god (that worm thing you encounter after the the path filled with spikes, with the water going up and down). At this point I got stuck, went totally frustrated, started to hate the game and deinstalled the whole thing.

Now, I still think Aquaria is a great game, with brillant ideas in gameplay, and a wonderful athmosphere... But to me it had some big flaws, that made me hate it in several points, and I would like to explain why.
First, though, I must admit that there is one thing I have always hated in any game: having to jump from floating platforms and avoiding spikes. I know there is people who love this, but I just can't bear it, and that is probably responsible at least for 50% of my disappointment with the game. On the other hand, one thing I have always loved, are adventure games where you have to solve puzzles and riddles, but on that side, in my humble opinion, the game lacks in communication with the player. The game is full of hints, but most of them are kind of hard to decode, and a lot are really hidden, or too far fetched to be understood, and generally speaking, the game is really vague on what you're supposed to do.
You know, there is no game without rules, every game has rules, that define how you're supposed to reach the final goal. These rules, in Aquaria, where never really clear.

Most of the problems with the game reach the surface when you have to face a boss. A good example is the Mythalas God: how was I supposed to know that shooting at it wasn't doing any good? The rule to beat the boss is: throw poison frogs in his mouth until he turns red, then shoot him. But then again, how was I supposed to know I could shoot him when he was red, since I couldn't do it before.
The first time I confronted the beast I spent 30 minutes shooting it, until I started to think that either the energy of the beast must have been 7000 hp or it was immune to my shots. The problem was that there where no real clues (like a sound of some kind or a visual clue) that made me understand it, so you had to try a lot to find out. Once I got this, I had to understand that the poison frog was the solution, and actually I was already bugged enough, so that I went to the forum to seek advice, because I hardly have the time to try... you die and die again and just get frustrated a lot. And this is mainly because the nearest save spot is 3 levels above, so each time the beast kills you, you have to do all that swimming and dodging creatures down the stream, over and over again. Somebody told me there was a save spot right there, and in fact there was one, unfortunately you had to kill the boss before you could reach it, since it's right there behind him. The same person that told me about the save spot said that I would have understood if I had read the Mythalan writings on the wall... hmm... well, that's a great thing if those writings actually make sense, and are not simply a decoration of the background. I would never have thought that they could make sense in the first place, and it really shouldn't be something you must know to be able to progress in the game.

There's spots where the communication works better, like where you have to get the gears spinning, the game gives you a clear hint, and then you just have to figure out what to do with the hint.

Where the frustration reaches it's peak is, for my personal experience, the part where you must battle the sun temple boss. The boss itself is quite a challenge and you have to try a lot of times to find out what's the best way to kill it. The fact that you have to jump over those spikes just to be killed by that beast, over and over again, just got me completely mad.
The problem here is that the controls are not very accurate, so you end up hitting those spikes a lot of time, reaching the monster with little energy left, so you have even less time to try things.
It might be me who's a bit impaired o these kind of things... but then, I might not be the only one...

All in all, I loved Aquaria from the first videos I saw... but now I'm just too frustrated to play with it... anyway, I'm not telling you this because I need to complain with somebody, I just want to express my critique on the parts of the game that could be better, because I see the huge potential!
Hannes

[Glamador]

Well, I must say those are extremely valid points and feelings that I had myself.  But I also think that the difficulty of the game is extremely offset by how enjoyable and experience it is.  I think that using this forum in conjunction with the in-game hints is a good idea.  Personally I had to visit these forums I think 4 times to get through my first run.  Once because I was stuck in the sun temple (didn't think I could bind the blue thing, forgot to try, have since wised up).  Once because of the Sun Temple boss.  Once because I couldn't find the fuck to do with the whale.  And technically several times to find the treasures I missed.

Anyway now that you know you're not alone in your feelings let me say why I didn't uninstall the game and doubt I ever will.  It was one of the most engaging and excitingly unique experiences in a game I've had in a long while (barring Portal).  It was harder than your average game and I came to realize this VERY quickly.  But I also love to explore and I'm a collection whore.  So this game suits me very well.  As to your complaint with communication, I couldn't agree more, but at the same time, if I had gotten more hints in boss battles I don't think I would have felt as satisfied with myself once I figured them out.  As to the sun temple worm, I found that I became quickly frustrated thinking I had to puzzle him to death (like so many other bosses) and I couldn't figure it out.  Once I got on the forums and realized I just had to pound the hell out of him I adjusted my strategy and found that I gained victory in 5 attempts.  Now you may say "But didn't those spikes drive you nuts!?" and to that the answer is no.  I didn't get frustrated by the spikes one bit.  I had no trouble with them.  In fact I don't understand why people ARE having trouble.  It's a simple maze that once you know the correct route you can follow it exactly the same every time and never get hurt.  If I had FRAPS I would make a video to show you.  But frankly, if the Sun Temple boss has you THAT frustrated, then get somebody else to beat it for you and play the rest of the game, because I really think that the Sun Temple worm is the most frustrating part of the game and you won't be dissapointed with it from then onward.

As to strategies for the sun temple boss.  I really threw them out the window.  I jacked myself up on hot soup, spicy rolls, turtle soup, and LOTS of healing items, then just shot the guy with minor care to dodging and major care to CLICKING AS FAST AS I COULD.  Or you could use that nature form trick, works like a charm.

[Alec]

Sun Temple boss is cool with spider roll + charge shots with maybe a couple spicy rolls.

The spider roll prevents him from moving around.

But yeah, there are a lot of ways to get past things. The "unfortunate" thing is that they require thinking.

[bungiefan]

I thought with Mithalas, the flashing yellow was a good visual indicator that I wasn't doing damage. Enemies and previous bosses have flashed red when I've damaged them, and it's like that in many other games I've played where bosses are only vulnerable in certain spots.

[Alec]

Also for the mithalas boss, there is a closer save. You actually have to look for it though.

Dissing the controls is a bit weird. You have three different options available to you, and all are accurate.

You can use the mouse only.
You can use the keyboard to move and use the mouse to aim. (just start using the ASDW keys)
You can use a gamepad if you have it.

[hanzo]

But yeah, there are a lot of ways to get past things. The "unfortunate" thing is that they require thinking.

are you trying to say something?

As to strategies for the sun temple boss.  I really threw them out the window.  I jacked myself up on hot soup, spicy rolls, turtle soup, and LOTS of healing items, then just shot the guy with minor care to dodging and major care to CLICKING AS FAST AS I COULD.  Or you could use that nature form trick, works like a charm.

I tried the nature form trick... didn't work for me...
tried to switch from energy to beast (to get away when the thing tries to suck you in), tried the recipe that gives you shooting capabilities while in beast form (what's it called?), but that didn't seem to hurt the beast...
Anyway I'm glad to know I'm not the only one here to have had some problems...

I thought with Mithalas, the flashing yellow was a good visual indicator that I wasn't doing damage. Enemies and previous bosses have flashed red when I've damaged them, and it's like that in many other games I've played where bosses are only vulnerable in certain spots.

The disorienting part is the flashing itself. Usually creatures that were not getting hurt by shots where not flashing, and the shots were producing a certain high pitched sound. The fact that it was flashing made it look like it was getting damage, only the fact that it would not change anything after a long time was giving me a hint on the fact that it wasn't.

Also for the mithalas boss, there is a closer save. You actually have to look for it though. Wink

Dissing the controls is a bit weird. You have three different options available to you, and all are accurate.

You can use the mouse only.
You can use the keyboard to move and use the mouse to aim. (just start using the ASDW keys)
You can use a gamepad if you have it.

I have looked for a savespot, but have found none... either it's too hidden, or I'm too dumb to find it.
Oh and btw... I have found a map with all the savespots and all the treasures, but there appears to be no savespot near the mithalas god, apart from the one behind him.
for the controls thing I've probably been accurate enough, I wasn't dissing the controls generally, I only had problems when passing through the spikes before the sun temple boss. There the character would jump quite randomly (often against the spikes)... I did not understand how to control the way she would jump. And again, the big problem: no save spot near the boss...

[Alec]

Its in the level with the currents.

The cool thing is right at the beginning of the game it tells you that you can find save points using the minimap.

[hanzo]

The cool thing is right at the beginning of the game it tells you that you can find save points using the minimap.

yes I know... but if shows only those you have already found.

Look, I know you made this game, and that it feels bad to get critique on it... I know how it is myself, I am a comic artist, and I get a lot of critique myself, people complaining about stories you don't understand or characters that look stupid, or aesthetic choices, that don't work... but because of this I also know that sometimes you need people to tell you things.
I think sometimes you have to try a bit too much to find out stuff in this game, a lot of people will like it exactly because of this, others might not. It's just that.

[Xiagan]

I thought with Mithalas, the flashing yellow was a good visual indicator that I wasn't doing damage. Enemies and previous bosses have flashed red when I've damaged them, and it's like that in many other games I've played where bosses are only vulnerable in certain spots.

The disorienting part is the flashing itself. Usually creatures that were not getting hurt by shots where not flashing, and the shots were producing a certain high pitched sound. The fact that it was flashing made it look like it was getting damage, only the fact that it would not change anything after a long time was giving me a hint on the fact that it wasn't.

Flashing always means something. Walls are not flashing, nor are bosses (or part of bosses) that can't get hurt by it. Yellow = something happens, but, alas, not hurting. (In this case he will retreat to the left side of the cave.) Red = It gets hurt.

I have to say, that I died two times on my way through the spikes before the sun worm and not at all in his cave. I didin't found him that hard. There were other bosses where I had more problems. I shot the sunworm, refilled health when necessary, and shot again until it died. And I used the spider roll.

And the minimap isn't only showing you the ones you found. Don't click on the map to make it big, look at the map-circle and the small red circle is the next savepoint, the white circles are exits.

[Alec]

Anyways, I'm sorry the game is too hard for you. I kinda wish everyone could enjoy it, but if we made it so it appealed to the average of everyone's expectations we probably wouldn't like it much ourselves anymore.

I think there are some small things we can change to improve certain areas/puzzles in the game. (the sun temple puzzle is one place where there isn't a very clear hint that you can move the light crystal holder, someone suggested a mural on the background which is a good idea)

But other than some isolated issues, the difficulty feels right to us. Some people will find it too easy and others too hard. But I don't think that means that its "wrong" or "bad". Its kind of like complaining that "Kill Bill" is too violent or something. Its a style, some people like it and some people don't. It would be weird to change the style of the game at this point.

With that said, I still feel the difficulty is fair and that there are many options to get through situations. You're free to leave areas and head elsewhere, stock up and come back. You can use alternate forms/abilities to get past things.

We definitely wanted to make something that people couldn't just "sleep through". I hate that in a lot of modern games. If I don't feel challenged, I'll just lose interest.

But it'd be cool to make a mod that opens the game up for more players who are turned off by being challenged. Simple puzzles and that kind of thing, different storyline.

[Quemaqua]

I think what it comes down to is that many of the people who find this game a bit hard or a little directionless just aren't familiar with similar games that feel the same.  I thought Aquaria meshed perfectly with the games it drew most of its inspiration from, and I felt very at home since I'm a fan of those games.  While there are elements of difficulty and having to figure out some stuff, it's pretty well grounded for what it is.  But it does require thought, it does require having the mindset that you're playing the kind of action/adventure it sets out to be, and there are probably going to be a few points that will stump you or frustrate you until you figure them out.  That isn't a good thing for everybody, but it's definitely a good thing for people like me who look for exactly that formula.

[Xocrates]

But other than some isolated issues, the difficulty feels right to us.

Just a little comment here. The fact that you feel the difficulty seems right to you is pretty much irrelevant. You made the game, you know how it is supposed to be played, place it in the hands of a random gamer and you'll see (as I expect you did during testing) that they'll do a lot of stuff you never thought of. My brother is a coder himself, and I did some testing for him on occasion, I do not recall a single occasion where I did not found a bug or an issue simply because I did something they never considered.

Aquaria is a bloody good game, that is not the same as saying it is particularly accessible (whether it is easy or hard is irrelevant on this point), which I personally believe will drive off a significant amount of people. Some people will have no issues with it, a lot will have some issues with it, and to a few others the game will simply be frustrating and annoying. The lack of difficulty in modern games, as you point out, is much due to trying to ensure that everyone an enjoy the game (and there are many successful examples), you may try to avoid this, but that means you'll always do niche games.

This is not a critic, I have no issues with what you're doing here (despite the fact that personally I find the game is a bit harder than it should), just me rambling

[Alec]

I'm not saying its accessible or anything. If its less accessible because it doesn't explain itself every step of the way, that's fine with me.

 I'm just saying that generally the difficulty is where we want it, not based on our own playthroughs exclusively, but also based on our testers' experiences.

I guess what I'm saying is making the game into step by step "explain everything" bullshit like every mainstream game that comes out, would drive me even further towards suicide.

i.e. Bioshock's PRESS F TO HEAL message that appears constantly. Why not just auto heal at that point? Why not just give me infinite health? Why not just make it a movie and I can just sit on my ass and watch it?

[hanzo]

Thinking about it I guess you're right when you say that this is the game you wanted to make, and you just did it like this. I would have done a different game if I were you, but with the same spirit.
The fact is, I don't really seek challenge in games, I see them more as interactive worlds, or interactive stories... so the problem is certainly mine... just sorry because what I really loved in aquaria is the brilliant atmospheres, and the great artwork.
Oh btw... there's one little critique I'd like to make on that side too, just because I like to bug you
If you create an intro movie, make it kick ass! The whole game looks really polished and professional, only the intro looks like it's some homebrew game. I know, most people won't even notice... but still, it's the first thing you see in the game... the one thing that defines the setting of the game itself.

[Alec]

yeah, I like the intro too, but its cool that you hate it.

i also consider the game to be about an immersive environment and a world, as well as having challenges.

but what do i know.

i can't believe i wasted 2 years of my life working on this crap.

should have just got a job at EA.