Trailer praising/stomping thread

[xander]

In short, story is never *necessary*, but, well executed, it's a boon in any genre.

Exactly.  When you are playing a game, the most important thing is gameplay.  Games are about gameplay, period.  A good story can carry a mediocre game, but good gameplay can carry a terrible or non-existent story.  I can come up with lots of examples of games with great gameplay and little to no story, but I can't think of any games with great story and poor gameplay that I would be willing to play again.  The holy grail is getting both good gameplay and good story, but if one is to be forgotten, by all means, forget the story.

xander

[Alec]

Games are about gameplay, period.

No they're not.

[Zam]

Yes they are. Gameplay is how well the mechanics of the game are  set up to be fun, challenging, and fair. Gameplay is the part of the game that makes it fun to play.
Aka ; in chess, the differences in the piece's movements make it so each piece is useful in it's own way , keeping one piece from being 'the best'. Having each side set up the same keeps things even, and having to take turns makes it fair. The positioning of the pieces also is part of the gameplay.

Eh, ask xander if you want coherent reasoning

[Alec]

Games aren't only about gameplay.

There are many factors that make up a game, and they play off each other.

I'd rather see a game where all factors are working well, than one that just has "good game play".

[Zam]

Well, duh.

Why settle for less?

[Alec]

I guess what I'm getting at is not everyone has the same tastes.

[Zam]

Right-o!

 

[Alec]

For example, I wouldn't have a problem playing a game with a good story if it didn't have the greatest gameplay. And some games that have deep gameplay, but a shit story, I'm not interested in. I like it when they both play off each other in interesting ways, when it feels like they're tied in together.

Music makes a huge difference for me too. If a game has annoying audio, I find it really hard to play, even if the gameplay is supposed to be good.

I don't think every element of a game has to be perfect;  its all about how the elements play off each other.

[wesley]

Music makes a huge difference for me too. If a game has annoying audio, I find it really hard to play, even if the gameplay is supposed to be good.

I don't think every element of a game has to be perfect;  its all about how the elements play off each other.

Yes, I have the exact same feeling. For me, personally, the story keeps me interested in finishing the game and the gameplay makes it enjoyable. And the music cannot be underestimated. It makes up a big part of the game (I cannot stress that enough, but sound is just as important as graphics, at least that is my opinion)

[Tosheros]

In short, story is never *necessary*, but, well executed, it's a boon in any genre.

Exactly.  When you are playing a game, the most important thing is gameplay.  Games are about gameplay, period.  A good story can carry a mediocre game, but good gameplay can carry a terrible or non-existent story.  I can come up with lots of examples of games with great gameplay and little to no story, but I can't think of any games with great story and poor gameplay that I would be willing to play again.  The holy grail is getting both good gameplay and good story, but if one is to be forgotten, by all means, forget the story.

I really dont think so. For me the story is the most important in a game. By the story i dont mean only the scenario, but all the atmosphere, the surroundings, and that includes the scenario of a game, but also the music, the sounds, the details, the background, the scenery and so on...
Everything that manages to take us to a new dimension. To be imerged in the game  (oh my god, I made a pathetic play on word with the fact that Aquaria is a underwater game, and I didn't intended to make it XD).

Of course gameplay is important, but I think that a game can be great onl with a good story. I mostly think about the Legacy of Kain games, or the Xenosaga games.

Still, the best is to have them both.

[xander]

Games are, by definition, an interactive media.  That is why I say that gameplay is the most important aspect of a game.  If you want great visuals, why not paint something?  If you want great story, why not write a book?  If you are interested in audio, why not compose some music, or a radio drama?  If you want a great combination of visuals and audio and story, why not make a movie?  Games are about interaction, and that interaction comes in the form of gameplay.

As I said above, there are some games out there with mediocre gameplay and great stories that are popular, and get played, and are made better by the story.  I would put the Final Fantasy games in this category -- the gameplay isn't that great, and remained pretty much the same from FF IV all the way through FF IX, with some minor variations (though some may disagree with me).  But can a game with truly terrible gameplay still be a good game because of a strong story?  Can you think of any games that fit that criteria?  Great story, terrible gameplay?

On the other hand, can a game with a terrible or nonexistent story and great gameplay be a good game?  I think the answer is obviously "yes."  What kind of story does the original Super Mario Brothers have?  "The princess is in another castle?"  Terrible story telling, but a great game.  Rez is a game without a story that is a great game (though it does have strong audio and visual, which I will get to in a moment).  Castlevania: SotN has great gameplay, and a downright stupid story, terrible voice acting, and a pretty good sound track.  Sonic the Hedgehog has great gameplay, no story, and mediocre sound.  Shadow of the Colossus has virtually no story, and is all mood and atmosphere, though it also has unique gameplay, which makes it interesting.

So, while story can enhance a good game, or even bring a mediocre game into the realm of good, I don't think that it can make a game.  A game with truly terrible gameplay will never be good, while a game with a truly terrible story could be good.  I would make the same arguments about sound and visuals.  Great sound design or visuals can enhance a good game, and improve a mediocre game, but they can't fix poor gameplay.  Which gets us back to Rez -- the gameplay in Rez is a bit ho-hum, and is not all that unique, but it is not bad -- it is actually reasonably good.  Without good sound and visual design, Rez is a run of the mill on-the-rails shooter.  With good sound design and visuals, Rez is a really good game.

That is exactly the point that I am trying to make -- games are about interactivity and gameplay.  If the gameplay is poor, nothing else matters.  But, with the right sounds, story, and visuals, a less-than-great game can be good.

I will finish by reiterating a question from above:  Can you name one game with a great story and terrible gameplay that you would consider to be a good or great game?  Name just one...

xander

[Alec]

Phoenix Wright.

I'm really loving it, and the majority of fun comes from the writing and the feelings it generates. The gameplay is very simplistic. I wouldn't say terrible, but its very limited. I still feel like I'm playing as the character, and more connected than if I was reading a book.

[Alec]

So yeah, to clarify, I'm not saying that a game has to have a complex story. Obviously Mario 64 and Super Mario World are on my list of top favorite games of all time. But I'm saying not all games have to put the focus on gameplay to be good games. There are many different types of good experiences to be had, they don't all have to stem from gameplay. There are many different players, who look for different things in games.

[Xocrates]

I think you guys are forgetting to take in consideration the duration of the game.

What I mean is this: most gameplay only/mostly games are usually very devoid of any deep story (as the above mentioned Sonic the hedgehog and alikes). A good player can easily finish many of those games in about one hour or two (assuming they a have a linear succession of levels, like most classic platformers did). I could exemplify with Defcon for instances, to all effects it is simply a very advanced board game which you can play in about an hour, story isn't very relevant.

However, if you have a game with an average duration of 10 effective hours to the end, you usually need more than just a fun gameplay, you need a reason on why you keep playing. A comparison I would like to make is Prince Of Persia: Sands of Time VS Soul Reaver 2, the first, with all its tricks and moves and whatever took me one to two weeks to play, simply because it didn't gave me any reason to go on, except: there's a bad guy at the end, I honestly felt the game was really dull although the gameplay was a lot more complex and you could do a lot more things than in Soul Reaver 2. Soul Reaver 2 however, I finished in 2 days and wanting more, not because of any super advanced and cool gameplay, but because the story had so many twists and turn I couldn't stop wanting to find out more.

Short version: Gameplay keeps you coming back, story keeps you going.

[Xiagan]

Wtf! Alec, why do you have time writing so much at this forum?!? Is the game already finished and now you make a vacation before releasing it?