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Author Topic: Modding questions and one about the (hidden) learnFormUpgrade function.  (Read 10385 times)

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Offline Kyoma

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Hello, as the title says I have a couple of questions. Some are perhaps ment for the developers but others may know it aswell?

Firstly, something that's really bothering me, I cannot seem to figure out how to resize/scale nodes.  :'( It feels like I've tried any key combo I could think of and still no luck. Might someone wiser than me know how to do this?

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Then with the big question out of the way I had two more things to wonder about.

There are a few scripts/entities that refer to 2 upgrades for the EnergyForm (FORMUPGRADE_ENERGY1 and FORMUPGRADE_ENERGY2), although they appear to be cut from the game itself they do function (and are pretty cool). But that is not what I wanted to ask about, instead, while browsing the constants I found a third upgrade for the BeastForm (FORMUPGRADE_BEAST). I tried adding it but I couldn't notice any immediate changes, that combined with the fact this upgrade does not even have a hidden/removed script makes me think it may never have been developed further towards an actual upgrade. Is this correct?  :-\

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Lastly, as a big final, a question about modding the original Aquaria maps. Well modding isn't really the right word for what I'm thinking about, more like expanding or integrating. For example, lets say I want to make a mod with a series of dungeons, each one with a moderate reward at the end and all of them containing complex puzzles with various form requirements. I could make the whole thing a seperate mod, in which upon starting it will warp you to the first dungeon where you can start your puzzles.

But that presents two problems (IMO):
#1. There isn't really any point to the rewards or completing the dungeons, apart from being able to say "I beat it", there aren't any things you'll be able to use in the original Aquaria.
#2. It would take away a large part of the concept of Aquaria, where you learn new things throughout the game and each new skill may open new doors in previously visited areas. If I were to put these dungeons into a seperate mod, each form would need to be added by script purely so you can complete the dungeon. And each dungeon would lead directly to the next since, well there isn't really anything in between.

With these 2 points in mind I began thinking of a way to integrate new maps into the original Aquaria. Fortunately it wasn't all that hard, thanks to the Native Aquaria mod. With that loaded up I'd add a simple trigger to warp Naija to a new map. Then save it and copy it back to Aquaria\data\Maps, overriding the existing file. Ingame, my new trigger showed up and worked without problems, I even got the MiniMap to work for this new area (at first the MiniMap wouldn't recognize where I was).

But this methode is ofcourse not without downsides, cause I'd have to edit a map file in order to add or integrate new things. Even then only 1 mod would be able to do this. Then I was thinking, what if there was a way to add entities and nodes (and such) to a map and then saving it to a new/sub file (I know, sounds vague  ;)). Like when you have a map: mainarea.xml, then any file starting with that plus an underscore would be inserted/added to it (like mainarea_XYZ.xml). That way, a modder could add new, but simple, things to an existing area with a reasonable compatibility.

I've been reading up a bit and I realize the idea of modding for Aquaria was to add completely new things and not altering the existing campaign. But there is a difference between modding the game and supplementing the game. With my for mentioned example it would mean more dungeons people can explore without requiring the need to create a whole new game in between. Ofcourse I don't really know much about the inner workings so it may be too difficult or tiresome to add such a mechanism but IMO would be well worth it. 8)

What do you people (and developers aswell) think?  :)

-kyoma

Offline Alphasoldier

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First of all I must say this is one big ass post and I had to reread it 4 times to not miss anything.

Resizing nodes is done with shift+rmb (right mouse button)  and then dragging, simple as that.

Secondly, I'm not sure what exactly you asked but the energy upgrade was just something that was not implemented, I don't know how or why, probably didn't fit in the story or something, Alec (one of the two creators) has not yet enlightened us with such information.
And I think the 'third' upgrade, being the one of the beast simply has no further script (you should've gotten an error after obtaining it), thus no effect, but it is for some reason still an entity.

Then your two problems...
1. The problem of there being no points to the rewards... well perhaps you could try adding the (energy) upgrade to the original game (plus additional graphic). Perhaps Alec himself would like to help you with this.
2. Making a mod with dungeons with probably enemies and puzzles and eventually getting all forms would be most likely a very nice mod, however, if implemented in the actual game... I think you'd be better off if you would just have a certain 'portal' from Naija's home to the dungeon so you can 'reap' rewards every time you've obtained another form. Be it those upgrades or just perhaps ingredients.

Finally, I don't think it's possible... or rather worth the trouble to change such things to the game engine, I personally think you'd be better off by making a sort of TC mod (total conversion).
This being perfectly manageable if you put backups of the original files in the TC so people could convert back. (I know it's more than possible, I did this. Though it might have some troubles with new graphics on the Mac)

All in all, an amazing post with an amazing idea! I'm just not sure if it's worth all the trouble to integrate this into the main game.
However, IF you do, it might be a better idea to add a whole new form or perhaps better upgrades as a 'reward'.

When thinking about it though, making a simple portal in Naija's home would be a very easy way to transfer her to a whole new world.
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Offline Hiro

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 8) Slightly disjointed post follows:

Hmmm... So if I read that right, you want to be able to edit the main game files as part of the main game, without overwriting them.
I'm impressed that you managed to make it work with overwriting main game stuff though, that's pretty cool.

Why don't you just edit the native mod? If you add your stuff there people can play it as if it were the main game, and you don't have to worry about overwriting the main game at all. If you talk to Ed I'm sure you could even get the minimap to work through the mod system.

Usually I'd think that just playing the game again in a different space is fun, even if it feels like it has no 'reward.' Like the Big Energy Battle mod; its just a really simple beat-em-up room but some people liked it.

Other than that, it does sound like a cool idea. You should totally look into the form making project someone (I can't remember who) did a while back. I never actually tried it out myself, but it sounded like 'Ninja Naija" was really cool. :D

P.S. I feel reeeaally weird when topics like this bring up mods that I made... Good to know that people still find that Native thing useful. Though really I always feel compelled to tell people that I did nothing but copy a bunch of files and give it a name. I didn't even make the title screen. =x
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Offline Kyoma

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First of all I must say this is one big ass post and I had to reread it 4 times to not miss anything.
Yes, sorry about that. It tends to happen when I make long posts on forums. :-[

First of all I must say this is one big ass post and I had to reread it 4 times to not miss anything.
Hmmm, I thought I tried that. Guess not, thanks! :)

Secondly, I'm not sure what exactly you asked but the energy upgrade was just something that was not implemented, I don't know how or why, probably didn't fit in the story or something, Alec (one of the two creators) has not yet enlightened us with such information.
And I think the 'third' upgrade, being the one of the beast simply has no further script (you should've gotten an error after obtaining it), thus no effect, but it is for some reason still an entity.
I didn't mean to ask about the energy upgrades, they work (and are pretty cool btw). It was more of an intro as to why I wanted to know about the third, beast upgrade. As you said, unlike the energy upgrades which were just cut from the final game, it does not have any script to learn it. But when I tried it out with a quick test script I didn't get an error, yet I couldn't find any changes for the Beast Form either. I was just wondering if this beast upgrade was ever implemented with an actual change.

Then your two problems...
1. The problem of there being no points to the rewards... well perhaps you could try adding the (energy) upgrade to the original game (plus additional graphic). Perhaps Alec himself would like to help you with this.
2. Making a mod with dungeons with probably enemies and puzzles and eventually getting all forms would be most likely a very nice mod, however, if implemented in the actual game... I think you'd be better off if you would just have a certain 'portal' from Naija's home to the dungeon so you can 'reap' rewards every time you've obtained another form. Be it those upgrades or just perhaps ingredients.

Finally, I don't think it's possible... or rather worth the trouble to change such things to the game engine, I personally think you'd be better off by making a sort of TC mod (total conversion).
This being perfectly manageable if you put backups of the original files in the TC so people could convert back. (I know it's more than possible, I did this. Though it might have some troubles with new graphics on the Mac)
I see my mind was not totally clear when I posted this part. My very first thought when thinking about a series of dungeons was to (as you state at the end) add a single portal to one map, which then leads to a whole new world (or just a single-map-hub with exits to each dungeon). And that is what I started to work on, it wasn't until much later that I started thinking about the theoretical use. As in, what if more modders would want to do this. I realize now that, although handy, adding what I described in my post is a bit overkill.

All in all, an amazing post with an amazing idea! I'm just not sure if it's worth all the trouble to integrate this into the main game.
However, IF you do, it might be a better idea to add a whole new form or perhaps better upgrades as a 'reward'.

When thinking about it though, making a simple portal in Naija's home would be a very easy way to transfer her to a whole new world.
Yea, a good idea. I'll just stick with the simple-portal-way, now lets just hope I can put all my dungeon ideas into reality. :P As for new forms, I'm not 100% sure how I would go about and how good it would look/feel compared to the original ones. Maybe once I got the dungeons I can worry about that kind of stuff, for now I figured I'd reward the player with ingredients and/or recipes (the somewhat rare ones).

All in all, thank you for your reply and for putting up with my rather large post. :P

8) Slightly disjointed post follows:

Hmmm... So if I read that right, you want to be able to edit the main game files as part of the main game, without overwriting them.
I'm impressed that you managed to make it work with overwriting main game stuff though, that's pretty cool.

Why don't you just edit the native mod? If you add your stuff there people can play it as if it were the main game, and you don't have to worry about overwriting the main game at all. If you talk to Ed I'm sure you could even get the minimap to work through the mod system.
Yes, that's basically what I had intended. With the exception you would not be editing the main game files, merely appending stuff to them (such as new entities/nodes). Why not edit the Native mod, well I did consider that and I know of Edward's minimap system. It's just I feel like that would complicate playing the mod or start using it with an existing game. I mean, unless the player was already playing the Native mod he'd have to restart in order to benefit from my mod. I dunno, maybe I'm just being nitpicky.  :-\

Usually I'd think that just playing the game again in a different space is fun, even if it feels like it has no 'reward.' Like the Big Energy Battle mod; its just a really simple beat-em-up room but some people liked it.
A valid point, I suppose this is largely just a personal feeling. For me, (almost) everything in games must (meh, must may be a big word) have a purpose within the whole picture of the game. A bit hard to explain, for me knowing something won't have any real reward takes away the challenge and motivation to play it.

Not that I didn't like your mod, it was very fun indeed. But without a reward I could use on the rest of my adventure it quickly got bored, no not bored, repeative for me.  :-\

Other than that, it does sound like a cool idea. You should totally look into the form making project someone (I can't remember who) did a while back. I never actually tried it out myself, but it sounded like 'Ninja Naija" was really cool. :D
Actually I already came across that one, looked pretty nice indeed. :D

P.S. I feel reeeaally weird when topics like this bring up mods that I made... Good to know that people still find that Native thing useful. Though really I always feel compelled to tell people that I did nothing but copy a bunch of files and give it a name. I didn't even make the title screen. =x
Perhaps, but if it wasn't for that mod (and more specifically how it was created) I'd never would have figured out a way to edit the original files. ;)

And ofcourse thank you for your reply aswell. :)

-kyoma

Offline Hiro

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Yeah if you used a mod base then people would have to start over to get your content into their game...
Do save files in the main game carry over properly if you add things to the main game? If so then that's very interesting. If that's the case then you should be able to reasonably easily add content in without problems. Though you'd want to make sure that its easy to remove that stuff again if people don't want it in their main game any more...

And lol, don't feel bad about dissing BEB, it was just a random simple idea. What I really wanted to do was show people that its easy to make something small with the modding system, hoping to inspire more people to make stuff even if its just one room.

Is it possible that your beast form upgrade is the one you get from shark soup that makes the bite more powerful? 'Cos that wouldn't be immediately obvious... Or the one that gives you beast form shots (which normally you don't use and so that's not really obvious either)?
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Offline Kyoma

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Yeah if you used a mod base then people would have to start over to get your content into their game...
Do save files in the main game carry over properly if you add things to the main game? If so then that's very interesting. If that's the case then you should be able to reasonably easily add content in without problems. Though you'd want to make sure that its easy to remove that stuff again if people don't want it in their main game any more...

And lol, don't feel bad about dissing BEB, it was just a random simple idea. What I really wanted to do was show people that its easy to make something small with the modding system, hoping to inspire more people to make stuff even if its just one room.

Is it possible that your beast form upgrade is the one you get from shark soup that makes the bite more powerful? 'Cos that wouldn't be immediately obvious... Or the one that gives you beast form shots (which normally you don't use and so that's not really obvious either)?
Adding stuff to a map that has already been visited works without problems, haven't tried reverting to the original map though I don't expect any problems.

Increased bite power, that was my first thought aswell but I had a hard time testing or confirming this. I did found something interesting, it seems that, like changeForm, learnFormUpgrade works with numbers beyond the three constants from the OP. I know it doesn't really change anything directly but it does make it easier to see if the player has a, custom, upgrade.

P.S. Does anybody know how to rotate a given vector around a point with simple, trigonomy, math (assuming it is possible)? I tried google and although it found alot most stuff was for C, C++ and VB, not to mention it used special functions that I wasn't able to find in Lua.  :-\

Offline Yogoda

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P.S. Does anybody know how to rotate a given vector around a point with simple, trigonomy, math (assuming it is possible)? I tried google and although it found alot most stuff was for C, C++ and VB, not to mention it used special functions that I wasn't able to find in Lua.  :-\

Mm... not sure what you ask, but it looks like the definition of trigonometry :

alpha = your angle (in radian)

math.sin(alpha) = vx
math.cos(alpha) = vy

The vector is length 1

Use this formula to get your initial vector, and then make alpha vary.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 12:21:46 pm by Yogoda »

Offline Kyoma

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P.S. Does anybody know how to rotate a given vector around a point with simple, trigonomy, math (assuming it is possible)? I tried google and although it found alot most stuff was for C, C++ and VB, not to mention it used special functions that I wasn't able to find in Lua.  :-\

Mm... not sure what you ask, but it looks like the definition of trigonometry :

alpha = your angle (in radian)

math.sin(alpha) = vx
math.cos(alpha) = vy

The vector is length 1

Use this formula to get your initial vector, and then make alpha vary.
Arg, ofcourse. I was thinking way to complicated.  Thanks. :)