New here, Just finished, commenting on the game.

[SevenMass]

Hello all, 

Now that I've finished the game, I feel the need to make a post about my thoughts and opinions on Aquaria.

I've lurked the forums extensively before signing up, and I actually think I have a comment to make about this game that hasn't been made before.

The vibe I'm getting when I'm playing Aquaria, is that I'm watching a movie, rather than playing a game. I mean this in a good way. The game starts with narration, and it ends with a non-interactive outro. And then the ending credits titles starts scrolling.  (I watched them all and waited till it ended, something I rarely even do with movies) And everything that is in the plot is interwoven in the game, in everything, especially the background music.  The plot isn't an excuse for the game to exist, nor is the game an excuse to tell the plot.
There are many games and their developers that try to achieve this, but in Aquaria, it kind of happens, and it makes it look deceptively easy. (but then, for all I know, it could have just fallen out of the author's sleeves like that without them even realizing it, sometimes things just happen)

It is also one of the rare games I like to play with the music turned on.  Not just because the music is good, (which has already been mentioned countless times before) There are more games with good music, but good music in itself often isn't enough.
For example: The game Diablo2 has absolutely stunning music, but I can't play the game with the music turned on. Cause it loops endlessly and it interferes with the other sounds, creating a wall of sound that is tiring to listen to, and the mind filters out the unimportant background sounds, thus I end up not even hearing the music.
In Aquaria, the music and almost all other sounds are "balanced" in such a fashion, that this problem doesn't occur. (But maybe it isn't entirely fair because this is partially because you don't fight most of the time, and the fights that do happen don't last that long) And as noted before, the music isn't just nice piece of art used to fill the background, it actually ends up being interwoven in the plot.

I also like it how you don't have to fight everything you come across. you can easily cast shield and ignore most of the creatures in the open waters, or use fish form and pass hostile sea stars without much trouble (I wish there where more of such enemies though, It would have been great if fish form also allowed you to pass piranja's and the horseshoe for example) It is also one of the least linear games I've ever played, the amount of freedom in where to go and what to do next is only surpassed by  games such as Simcity.

Last, there are the save points: Normally I prefer games where you can save manually, just about anywhere. Save points are often a pain because they force you to finish sections of the game between save points in one session, and they are also often at locations where you either feel you better move on a bit more, or where you really like to quit but haven't found the save point yet. While Aquaria uses a save point system, for some reason, I rarely had any of the problems I just described. It feels as though they are always placed at spots I'd save the game manually if I could.

[Alphasoldier]

Can't agree with you more and you said everything pretty much perfectly.

The save points were also very strategically placed, you wouldn't want to save just after you got an awesome form and you want to try it out, once you tried everything which isn't THAT long, you go back to finding a save so you don't have to get the form again.
Second, stories, there are a lot of parts in the game where you have a save point before the story, at the start of a story and at the conclusion of the story, which ends up with a boss usually. Also all very strategically placed, who would want to save when you're just coming on to something? Well, unless it's really... really late.

[inkblob]

welcome to the forums SevenMass, and that was a great thoughtful read 

... Also all very strategically placed, who would want to save when you're just coming on to something? Well, unless it's really... really late.

on my latest pass through the game I'm saving before and after each boss and the technique is working well to not flood all the available slots too badly. this way when I hear about some crazy boss technique it's not a bus trip across town to get back to the boss in question.

[Alphasoldier]

Actually, I cheat, I use the Native mod of Hiro to get to the bosses if I need to, even though I did adjust the mod lightly and added all songs to myself. ^^

[SevenMass]

I save before a major fight and right after. For example, the forest goddess: Before you face her, you have the option of saving at that very nearby save point, and after beating her, you can swim right back to that save point and save again! Not even talking about that masterfully placed teleporting flower. That takes you almost right next to the ancient sea turtle.

That said, I couldn't help but also notice a couple of flaws here. There is no handy save point near the jelly king for example. Nor near the big crab in the Arnassi ruins. The big crab isn't a big problem because you are very unlikely to fail here, but with king jelly there is a realistic chance you will die, even for a more experience player.  Also, I found it frustrating to fail at the end boss form 5. All the other forms are much easier, at least once you know what to do, then you fail at form 5 because  it is a form that require more reflexes and fast thinking, and you have tediously redo all the other forms again, and again. I wish there was a save before form 5.

Exploring is nice, restarting a bossfight because he is difficult is fine, redoing whole sections of what is no more than swimming around because a test at the very end of that long section is  difficult is not.
But  suppose I can live with it because it is the endboss and only a very small and relatively uninteresting part of the game.

Thinking about this, perhaps a nice idea for any future games, try to make even major bosses optional.
The idea that a game must consist of a series of bossfights was started by a certain console manufacturer, and like the mother song in Aquaria infecting all of Aquaria, that idea ended up infecting every part of the gaming industry. But I believe it  isn't needed. As long as the story ends in a satisfying way, it doesn't have to be a big boss fight.
Case in point: In the Neverwinter Nights, Hordes of the Underdark campaign. You have the option of completely avoiding the fight with the last boss by learning his true name and commanding him to die. The story ends almost the exact same way, but you don't have to go through a frustrating fight. I personally don't find the fight that interesting anyway.
(I'm not saying that there should be no fights in the game at all, just that it doesn't need to invove a formalistic boss fight at the end)

[Alphasoldier]

Not to crack down your idea or something, but once bosses become optional, almost everyone will skip them, or beat them the easy way, just because there is that option.
And the Jelly and Crab and Mantis and loads of other minibosses are all optional.
The only bosses you NEED to defeat are, Energy Spirit, Energy God, Mithalas, Mother Nature, Sun Worm, Golem (parents of Eric) and Creator.
All of these have save point before them (besides the other 4 forms of the creator). So they ain't really all that hard to retry, and then you always have your food, if you explored at least a bit.

[Align]

Bosses are used as climax for both story and gameplay, so thinking up a replacement won't be easy.

[inkblob]

there are save points close to the Arnassi Mantis and Jelly King, they just arn't down the hall like with Mithalis and Nature. you have to figure out which one is closest, I think in the Abyss I saved at the memory crystal corridor as there is a fish tunnel that can scoot you there pretty quick. As soon as I could I got the Jelly costume, it's a hard boss but worth the effort 

[Grahf]

The Jelly costume is pretty amazing, especially as it scales with HP gain. It saved me from having to reload many times.

[SevenMass]

Please don't get me wrong. I know which bosses are optional. My little endboss rant and the comment about the save points near the jelly king are two completely separate issues.

I mentioned the giant enemy crab to contrast with the jelly king. (I have a habit of moderating my own arguments with contrasting examples) Of the two, I only found the King Jelly save a bit annoying, even though both didn't have saves down the corridor.  But even then it is only a minor issue. One could argue that it is a part of the difficulty you need to deal with if you opt to fight King Jelly.

The lack of a  save before Creator form 5 is my biggest real peeve. I actually liked form 3 and 4 in combination with form 1 and 2, it provided a nice break where you could fight the end boss, without actually "fighting" in the classical sense of fighting end bosses. But form 5 is very difficult, in the sense that it requires a lot of the traditional "gaming reflexes" to deal with him. I wanted to see the ending, but I failed at defeating form 5 several times in a row, and then having to redo form 1, 2, 3, 4, became a bit like grinding your CRPG character.




Continuing the game boss discussion: (I hope it is not  to off topic for this forum, but since I started it anyway...)

I don't think bosses need to be replaced if removed,  one could easily opt to end a story without one at all. If you reached the end of the game, then you have beaten the game, why is there a need for a big fight? The whole journey to the end of the game was one big undertaking in and off itself.

Imagine a story of a dictator who needs to be defeated, what will happen is that the biggest fight take place at the start of the active war, at some point, one of the sides has managed to gain control of a couple of key locations and defeated some key enemy units, or a certain amount of them. That is when the enemy has lost. Then comes the mopping up part, or maybe the peace negotiations. This could still hold an interesting plot, there might be some personal scores still left to settle, there might be a couple of guerilla groups left to take down. Game wise, some of the most difficult fights (for the main character) might still take place here. (they just don't need to be bosses, they could be hostile terrain with a couple of very nasty mooks)
The plot could still hide some darkness, one could still uncover some horrible crimes that have been taking place, during the dictators reign.

And to top it off, you could could still end it with a confrontation with the dictator himself. Just that, he is a politician, not a fighter. He used to  have others fight for him. So instead of an end boss fight, the story ends with a short emotional dialog. If the writer is good and particularly nasty, he may even construct it so that due to the dictator his last stance (he would be a manipulator, not a warrior) the player is left wondering if defeating the dictator was actually a good idea.  If he shouldn't maybe joined his cause instead!
Then you could still have the player kill the dictator with an attack, but as stated,  he isn't a fighter, so he should go down with one strike.


Also, I do not think that everyone will skip boss fights, even if there is no in-game reward at all, some people will think it is fun seeing if they can defeat something challenging . And even if most people end up skipping the difficult fight, so what? It is only a very small part of the game.

EDIT: And sorry for the long posts.  I didn't mean to create a wall of text, but sometimes I get a bit carried away with something. If anyone thinks I should have this discussion elsewhere, please say so.

[Chibi]

You make some interesting points; however, paced bosses are almost expected in the traditional action/adventure game. The rest of the game would have to be very engaging to compensate for the boss's absence.

[inkblob]

I mentioned the giant enemy crab to contrast with the jelly king. (I have a habit of moderating my own arguments with contrasting examples) Of the two, I only found the King Jelly save a bit annoying, even though both didn't have saves down the corridor.  But even then it is only a minor issue. One could argue that it is a part of the difficulty you need to deal with if you opt to fight King Jelly.

tru dat! gaming would be hollow without good boss battles

[Align]

I don't think bosses need to be replaced if removed,  one could easily opt to end a story without one at all. If you reached the end of the game, then you have beaten the game, why is there a need for a big fight? The whole journey to the end of the game was one big undertaking in and off itself.

Because climax.

Game wise, some of the most difficult fights (for the main character) might still take place here. (they just don't need to be bosses, they could be hostile terrain with a couple of very nasty mooks)

I'd still call that a boss fight though; it doesn't take a huge monster or other single powerful character for a fight to be a boss fight.

[SevenMass]

Because climax.

Next question: why does there need to be a climax? The story could end more softly. And even if the story needs some kind of climax, the gameplay doesn't have to follow.

I'd still call that a boss fight though; it doesn't take a huge monster or other single powerful character for a fight to be a boss fight.

Only if it is set up like a boss fight.  I know a "boss" doesn't need to consist of a single powerful being.

I was talking about a couple of mooks that can't be mistaken for a bossfight. Such as an entire series of areas/dungeons where these strong mooks hide out here and there.

Imagine the energy temple in Aquaria without the energy boss. You already got the energy form from the ancient test at the start of the temple, and there was a bit of a question on whether you could get back, because the passage was closed. There are a couple of tight spots from lesser enemies here and there. And you had to solve some puzzles on how to open the next couple of doors.
What exactly does the energy boss add other than a challenging fight?  The vision could come from an other memory crystal, or from finding the tooth laying about near a big scull. And it could have been said that you've "beaten" the god and earned the form by completing the ancient test at the start of the temple.

(Don't read this as a comment on Aquaria or the energy boss, I simple use it as an example here)

[Chibi]

The problem would be the level of the game. The level of the "mooks" would have to be stepped up to keep the difficulty of the game at the same level, but when would the mooks become bosses?