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Author Topic: New here, Just finished, commenting on the game.  (Read 37227 times)

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Offline Align

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Re: New here, Just finished, commenting on the game.
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2009, 04:17:10 pm »
Next question: why does there need to be a climax? The story could end more softly. And even if the story needs some kind of climax, the gameplay doesn't have to follow.
If it has standard build-up, no climax means anticlimax, which is of course bad.
If it doesn't, and has a more constant pace... well, I don't recall ever playing such a game, so I can't say for sure, but there're plenty of extremely veteran game devs that speak of how important it is to have highs and lows in the experience.

Offline Haephasto

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Re: New here, Just finished, commenting on the game.
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2009, 06:55:05 pm »
The problem faced with in this part of the game is which element should be more prominent: the succesfull ending of the story or the gameplay pacing. Game designers will invariably prefer gameplay pacing, because a boss fight can provide a challenge more than once, whereas a story ending can only work succesfully once, meaning any replay attempt of the game will be more boring, with the player knowing the outcome already.

Furthermore, it is essential for the succesful completion of the story and the resulting evaluation that there is a peek in gameplay constancy at the end of certain sections. The Energy temple (from your example) would be dull without a boss fight, the dragging back and forth of the orbs would become tedious and the final part would be anticlimactic, destroying the careful construction of the whole energy temple and invalidating its constancy of proper music, atmosphere and anticipation. The story alone would not be enough of a reward for the completion here, because the way the temple is constructed demands a "crescendo" event. Touching a crystal would only resolve the story aspect, not the required gameplay crescendo.

And adding to that last point is the notice that the storyline of games constantly creates an opposition. There is a goal, usually personified in an enemy (boss), which is superior to the other enemies that you face. The defeat of Mephistophiles at the end of Neverwinter Nights is an example of a boss fight, not a resolution without one. The player is pitted against a mighty devil of the most powerful kind (thus a boss). Just because the option of guile (learning his true name for a load of money) enables you to instantly kill him, does not mean that you do not defeat him.

This is the important difference between the two options you voice. Game designers have ocasionally tried to forego boss fights and create anti-climax resolutions, but they have thus far not been able to fully replace the invention of the "boss" with something else.

Offline SevenMass

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Re: New here, Just finished, commenting on the game.
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2009, 07:05:29 pm »
Of course there should be highs and lows, I'm not arguing against that. It is the "standard build-up" you mentioned that I'm talking about. It is too standard.

When do mooks become bosses? How about never? Taking Aquaria as a reference pool again: (since I assume we all played it here) There are a couple of difficult and tight spots in The Body that will probably cost you more healing food than some of the bosses you've encountered earlier. (And Simon doesn't count) Especially If you haven't figured out yet how to use all available forms most effectively.
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Offline Align

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Re: New here, Just finished, commenting on the game.
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2009, 07:17:12 pm »
It's cliché because it works.


Which is not saying that it's the only approach that does.

Offline SevenMass

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Re: New here, Just finished, commenting on the game.
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2009, 07:19:31 pm »
OK, How about a story that involves finding a lost loved one. The climax would be if the main character is finally reunited with the loved one. There could be a lot of trouble on the way, maybe even some smaller enemies you come across on the adventure, but as long as the loved one wasn't kidnapped, there is no end boss to take care off.
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Offline Alphasoldier

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Re: New here, Just finished, commenting on the game.
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2009, 12:34:06 am »
I'm gonna say something against a lot of critics I have discussed these things with: If you don't like the game, make your own. (I think that's what Alec did. =p )
And of course you are all talking about the story part, not the whole game, but it's still all the same.

Long story short: Everything has been done before, it's hard to find actual ingenuity nowadays. Aquaria has come damn close and still, the slight bits that aren't original are the parts people are complaining about.

Now all I'm trying to say is that these discussions have been made before and as far as I can remember got nothing good out of it.
But, if you like discussing this, or about making a new game yourself, ignore this post in total and keep discussing like good friends.
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Offline SevenMass

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Re: New here, Just finished, commenting on the game.
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2009, 03:12:27 pm »
Actually, I was about to stop this discussion because  I think everything on this subject has been said by now, but I feel the need to correct any misunderstanding about it:

the slight bits that aren't original are the parts people are complaining about.

It is not a complaint about Aquaria, just a thought that came up in the middle of writing a post. But people reacted to it and I reacted back again. So the discussion went a bit off topic.
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Offline Alphasoldier

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Re: New here, Just finished, commenting on the game.
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2009, 08:29:41 pm »
Excuse me.
Aquaria has come damn close and still, the slight bits that aren't original are the parts people are "talking" about.
Fix'd now.
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Offline Align

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Re: New here, Just finished, commenting on the game.
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2009, 09:42:01 pm »
But if we can't give constructive criticism here, where can we give it?
Or just have a debate on something that is ever so slightly related.

Offline Alphasoldier

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Re: New here, Just finished, commenting on the game.
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2009, 11:25:53 pm »
As said many times, I think Aquaria is near perfection, besides a few bugs, this game cannot be improved.

Yet humanity always tries to fine some mistakes in things that seem or are perfect. Be glad with what you got eh?

Of course, like I said, if you like to keep debating/complaining/talking/discussing, by all means, don't let me stop you, though it might be a smart idea to, OR make a new topic, OR change the topic title. Cause personally, I'm getting pretty tired of running into topics that seems like people need help and that I stumble upon another debate/complaint/talk/discuss over Aquaria.

And if I miss anything in those four variants of communicating, feel free to not post about it and add it yourself mentally, thank you.
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Offline Align

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Re: New here, Just finished, commenting on the game.
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2009, 01:34:10 am »
Sounds like flamebait to me.

Offline Chibi

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Re: New here, Just finished, commenting on the game.
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2009, 02:15:24 am »
Sounds like flamebait to me.

Undoubtedly, but Alpha has a point.  :)

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Offline SevenMass

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Re: New here, Just finished, commenting on the game.
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2009, 02:02:29 pm »
No, he doesn't!
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Offline Xiagan

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Re: New here, Just finished, commenting on the game.
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2009, 02:37:38 pm »
Did!

Doesn't!

Did!

Doesn't!

Did!

Doesn't!

Did!

Doesn't!

Did!

Doesn't!

Did!

Doesn't!

...
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Offline silverflagon

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Re: New here, Just finished, commenting on the game.
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2009, 05:01:42 pm »
But if we can't give constructive criticism here, where can we give it?
Or just have a debate on something that is ever so slightly related.

Constructive is ok, just steer clear of the destructive part where you pull the other member's ideas apart without thought to their feelings ok?

Always think your replies out fully so they are least likely to hurt and upset, read, read and re-read your replies :) And of course a wise use of the smilies does help :)
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