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Author Topic: Suggestion: Better standard gamepad support  (Read 13793 times)

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Offline Nazo

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Suggestion: Better standard gamepad support
« on: December 15, 2007, 09:37:01 am »
I just played this game for a couple of hours or so and noticed a few things that bugged me about an otherwise absolutely wonderful game.  The one that struck me as the worst and one I'm posting about here is that I didn't really like the controls very much.  While I am no stranger to the mouse + keyboard control (I've been using it since Epic Megagames released Unreal back in 1998 or so) it just doesn't really feel right for this game.  I actually feel like this game would even play at its best on a good dual analog gamepad.  I don't have (nor want) an Xbox360 control though.  What I do use is a PS2 USB adapter that lets me plug in my PS2 controller (and the PS2 controller is basically just like an Xbox360 controller except that the left analog is closer to the player's left thumb and the d-pad is about 2x better or more in nearly all models -- lol, no offense to Xbox360 owners, just it's generally known among even happy Xbox360 users that the d-pad is rather less than ideal to say the least.)  This is basically just like an Xbox360 controller, only, since I have a lot more options, I get to use a controller that actually suits my hands far better.  Just like an Xbox360 controller, it features two analog sticks, a digital directional pad, and ten buttons (or twelve if you want to count when you press down on the analog sticks, but I really don't like to use those as buttons.)  All of these are mapped automatically by the USB adapter to a standard Windows gamepad driver with the analog sticks using four axes (that's plural of axis, lol) for the two analog sticks and the POV switches for the digital pad.   Sadly, the game appears not to support any but the first two axes, nor does it support the "POV switches."  Well, it seemed to allow use of the right stick for aiming a bit, but I noticed  that it only allowed me to aim up/down and behind me, no angles and never in front of me.  I wasn't able to bind the other two axes to anything in the control settings at all though.  This is probably the biggest issue for me since it makes it impossible for me to ever aim on my own nearly while autoaim is less than perfect if you want to fire at orbs or that sort of thing.

But besides that, there are the issues that I think probably apply to users of standard Windows gampads as well (most of which have the same basic design as the PS2 gamepad even if they may occasionaly use different mappings compared to a PS2 adapter -- then again, some may be the same.)  I noticed that when trying to do a few things like the singing it's extremely hard to actually control.  I think the problem is that the game seems to be treating the normal analog stick as if it were digital, but is a little too sensitive at times or something.  I've played a few games with a radial control and a few with a gamepad and I know it can work better with this gamepad.  (And, btw, with the mouse I'm not sure it wouldn't be better served by having a bit more distance between the player and the radial for a bit easier selection.  At least, I know I had less troubles with, say, Neverwinter Nights, than with this.)  I can think of one other solution to this though if that proves to be too hard to tweak to being just right.  It occurs to me that the singing radial might actually work better with a dual analog controller if it were actually split up into two seperate radials using only up/down and left/right on each.  One could then easily control the singing using the two sticks with no worries over accuracy.  I guess that would have to be a toggle control since it might not be suitable to everyone's wants.

I think that it should allow the user to map pretty much anything they want -- specifically, the POV switches may be useful for this or that.  Well, maybe everyone won't agree, but I think it would be nice if the settings menu would let you set these.  In particular, I noticed that it would not allow me to set the second two axes to even the second x/y controls (though the defaults do seem to work ok.)  I didn't need to I guess, but it might be useful if someone had, say, a gamepad where different axes are used for the right stick or something like that.

Finally, I think there should be a way to unbind buttons/keys in the control configuration.  In particular, it can be kind of troublesome with two of the buttons being mapped by default to act as mouse left and right despite the fact that everything the mouse left and right can do can be done seperately via other bindings.  This makes them sometimes conflict.

PS.  It seems to me that it would be a lot less confusing and work better if the menu controls worked less digitally so to speak and just simply used the left stick as a mouse.  While this is obviously not super accurate and thus you can't exactly fire off quick recipes in half a second this way, I don't think it's needed anyway since the game is paused while menus are up.  IMO it would be less confusing and more natural feeling this way.

BTW,  I realize that gamepad control has never been a big focus of the devs, but I really think it could improve how this game plays for many of us and make it a lot more fun.  (Also, I think it translates to being easier to port if the devs should ever actually find some way of working out getting it on other systems.  I can't help but think that this would make a wonderful console game with a far better conversion than, say Alien Homonid.)

EDIT:  I just played around with the configuration XML a bit myself.  I found that I could unbind stuff manually there.  More importantly though, I played around with things a bit and when I decreased the deadzone a fair bit it seemed to really improve the controls by quite a lot.  Still a bit of inaccuracy while swimming (though I think I have enough now) but more importantly I'm having far less trouble with the radial it seems.  Perhaps these more advanced settings should be offered in the control settings?

EDIT2:  Upon playing around with the XML a little more I discovered that the reason it wasn't letting me aim at all with the right stick is that the X was not bound to a correct axis.  When I changed it from 4 to 2 it began working perfectly.  Yet another argument in favor of allowing control of this via the controller settings menu I think since not everyone is going to know how to edit the file manually.  So I guess the reason it seemed to only aim behind me when I pressed anything other than up or down was the simple fact that it was not detecting any left/right movement...  BTW, isn't it a little odd to have the default direction of shots being behind rather than in front of you?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2007, 10:04:50 am by Nazo »

Offline Bongo Bill

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Re: Suggestion: Better standard gamepad support
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2007, 09:46:11 am »
I would certainly agree that a more extensive control customization menu would serve this game well. The current menu works excellently (though I would like to suggest making the list "wrap" so that we poor gamepad users will be free of the soul-crushing oppression of having to scroll all the way down to the bottom to apply the changes - oh, what indignities shall we be forced to suffer next!), but there are certain bindings which are not found in the list, and it would be nice to be able to customize them without hacking a configuration file.

Offline bungiefan

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Re: Suggestion: Better standard gamepad support
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2007, 06:43:13 am »
I'm just having trouble figuring out how to do a few things with a controller, again using a PS2 controller. I can't figure out how to reach the Use(for Costumes)  or Cook buttons or eat food without actually having to use a mouse. There's also no setting to work as a middle click, so I can't look with the controller, and the right stick doesn't seem to do anything.

Singing isn't too hard to control with the stick, but there's points inbetween notes where the stick just doesn't do anything.

Mika

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Re: Suggestion: Better standard gamepad support
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2007, 01:12:45 pm »
Hey dude, thanks for the hint with the right stick aiming. I also now changed the X from 4 to 2 and right stick aim works correctly now.


I generally agree with everything you said about pad support.

Offline Alec

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Re: Suggestion: Better standard gamepad support
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2007, 01:16:21 pm »
One thing: you can already unbind stuff. (although some important things are locked)

Just hit enter / left click to start "editing" a key/button, then press backspace.


Also you can edit the axes in the key config menu already, you do it by clicking the axes box and entering a new number.

The default axes #s that are in there are what work for my 360 controller.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2007, 01:18:28 pm by Alec »

Mika

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Re: Suggestion: Better standard gamepad support
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2007, 05:18:07 pm »
It might be a good idea to mention this in the readme. Or in the keyconfig menu even.


It's a bit unusual to bind axes by inserting a number, I mean, no on likes to guess which axis is which. Usually when binding axes you tilt the stick up/down or left/right and the game knows the axis from there.



But regardless, it's good to know.

Offline Alec

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Re: Suggestion: Better standard gamepad support
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2007, 07:16:03 pm »
Yeah, its unusual and at some point I'll set it up so that its easier to configure, but I'd like everyone's input first. :)

Offline Nazo

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Re: Suggestion: Better standard gamepad support
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2007, 01:24:14 am »
I think in the end all that is needed is for it to recognize just about any input that Windows understands more or less.  Then people can configure it any way they like, which in the end is all that's necessary with such support.  I do think adjustment of sensitivity and dead zone within the game menu would be nice though.  They could be hidden in an advanced menu or something if you think it necessary.

As for the sing radial, I guess what I mean there is that the dead parts should just "round" so to speak to the nearest part.  If, for example, you have it just a bit above down/right but it's closer to down/right than to just right, then it should "round" to down/right on the radial.

I'm surprised about the backspace on the unbinding though.  It's weird, but I would swear that I tried that first since a lot of games use backspace to unbind.  Either I didn't hit it hard enough or something I guess because it does work when I try it now.  I guess I should mention that the Escape key is probably a bit more intuitive though.  I've seen more games let you unbind that way I think.

Offline Alec

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Re: Suggestion: Better standard gamepad support
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2007, 01:45:52 am »
Yeah, but Escape is already used to cancel the bind I think.

i.e. back out without making changes

Offline Magis

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Re: Suggestion: Better standard gamepad support
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2007, 04:34:47 am »
Hello Nazo,

Could you please tell me exactly how you configured your PS2 gamepad, and any other settings you changed in which text files.  I am having trouble getting mine setup properly for Aquaria to use both analog sticks, and I can't use it to aim.

Thank you

Offline Nazo

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Re: Suggestion: Better standard gamepad support
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2007, 05:07:23 am »
Could you please tell me exactly how you configured your PS2 gamepad, and any other settings you changed in which text files.
Here is my usersettings.xml file.  Take what you will:
Code: [Select]
<System>
    <DebugLog on="1" />
</System>
<Audio>
    <Mic on="0" octave="0" />
    <Volume sfx="0.7500000" vox="1.000000" mus="1.000000" subs="1" />
    <Device name="" />
</Audio>
<Video>
    <Shader num="3" />
    <Blur on="1" />
    <NoteEffects on="1" />
    <FpsSmoothing v="23" />
</Video>
<Control>
    <AutoAim on="1" />
    <Targeting on="0" />
    <JoyCursorSpeed v="800.000000" />
    <JoyAxes s1ax="0" s1ay="1" s2ax="2" s2ay="3" s1dead="0.050000" s2dead="0.050000" />
    <ActionSet>
        <Action name="lmb" input="MOUSE_BUTTON_LEFT 0 0 JOY_BUTTON_2 " />
        <Action name="rmb" input="MOUSE_BUTTON_RIGHT 0 0 JOY_BUTTON_1 " />
        <Action name="PrimaryAction" input="MOUSE_BUTTON_LEFT KEY_SPACE KEY_RETURN JOY_BUTTON_5 " />
        <Action name="SecondaryAction" input="MOUSE_BUTTON_RIGHT KEY_LCONTROL 0 JOY_BUTTON_4 " />
        <Action name="SwimLeft" input="0 KEY_A 0 0 " />
        <Action name="SwimRight" input="0 KEY_D 0 0 " />
        <Action name="SwimUp" input="0 KEY_W 0 0 " />
        <Action name="SwimDown" input="0 KEY_S 0 0 " />
        <Action name="Revert" input="0 KEY_X 0 JOY_BUTTON_6 " />
        <Action name="Roll" input="0 KEY_R 0 JOY_BUTTON_7 " />
        <Action name="WorldMap" input="0 KEY_Q 0 JOY_BUTTON_9 " />
        <Action name="Escape" input="0 KEY_ESCAPE 0 JOY_BUTTON_8 " />
        <Action name="SongSlot1" input="0 KEY_1 0 0 " />
        <Action name="SongSlot2" input="0 KEY_2 0 0 " />
        <Action name="SongSlot3" input="0 KEY_3 0 0 " />
        <Action name="SongSlot4" input="0 KEY_4 0 0 " />
        <Action name="SongSlot5" input="0 KEY_5 0 0 " />
        <Action name="SongSlot6" input="0 KEY_6 0 0 " />
        <Action name="SongSlot7" input="0 KEY_7 0 0 " />
        <Action name="SongSlot8" input="0 KEY_8 0 0 " />
        <Action name="SongSlot9" input="0 KEY_9 0 0 " />
        <Action name="SongSlot10" input="0 KEY_0 0 0 " />
        <Action name="PrevPage" input="0 0 0 0 " />
        <Action name="NextPage" input="0 0 0 0 " />
        <Action name="CookFood" input="0 0 0 0 " />
        <Action name="FoodRight" input="0 0 0 0 " />
        <Action name="FoodLeft" input="0 0 0 0 " />
    </ActionSet>
</Control>
<Demo>
    <WarpKeys on="0" />
    <Intro2 on="0" />
</Demo>
<Data savePage="0" />

I still don't have it tweaked quite to my satisfaction though.  You'll probably want to play around a bit yourself.  Also, exactly what the axes get mapped to depends purely on your particular USB adapter, so you may have to play around with the numbers until you get it right for yours.  Remember though.  If your adapter does not automatically turn on analog mode, you must do so.  By default most modern PS2 gamepads will map the left stick to the d-pad so you might be fooled since it would still be able to control directions (though obviously not as well as it should) but the mapping of the right stick is usually to the buttons with up being the triangle, left being the square, and so on in the same directions.  Also, I like to give both sticks a good spin to make sure it properly calibrates, though I'm not sure this is necessary.

You'll find I was trying to play around with some of the other settings (like the shader and such.)  Nothing really seemed to happen with some, and with some others you may not want to play around with.  I hope we see a good filter for the graphics sometime though (most of the time the graphics are just beautiful, but it bugs me how sometimes you'll see obviously aliased edges such as with jellyfish and such.) You should only need the stuff in the control section of the file.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2007, 05:14:53 am by Nazo »

Offline Magis

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Re: Suggestion: Better standard gamepad support
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2007, 08:43:48 am »
Thank you, I copied your usersettings, but I needed to change the axis for the right anolog stick.
From <JoyAxes s1ax="0" s1ay="1" s2ax="2" s2ay="3" s1dead="0.050000" s2dead="0.050000" />
To <JoyAxes s1ax="0" s1ay="1" s2ax="3" s2ay="2" s1dead="0.050000" s2dead="0.050000" />

So I am able to aim my shots.
But still, theres something that bugs me.  When using the joystick I can't see the cursor anymore, so it makes singing songs more difficult, and obviously I can't put the cursor on things to click on them either, like the bed at the home.  Is there a way to have a cursor controlled by the right analog stick?

Offline Nazo

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Re: Suggestion: Better standard gamepad support
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2007, 08:53:05 am »
Don't forget.  You may want to adjust those dead-zone settings.  I set the deadzone really low because my gamepad seems to have a good centering.  Yours may or may not be the same.  Especially I've noticed that most real PC gamepads are quite bad at this and do seem to require a deadzone more like the default.

But still, theres something that bugs me.  When using the joystick I can't see the cursor anymore, so it makes singing songs more difficult, and obviously I can't put the cursor on things to click on them either, like the bed at the home.  Is there a way to have a cursor controlled by the right analog stick?
I can't suggest anything on the cursor because with the way the game currently handles it, it would be kind of annoying if it did show it while swimming normally (since it would always be centered on the player.)  I noticed while trying to use the mouse and joystick at the same time by accident once that it essentially just has the joystick grab the cursor and keeps the cursor centered while you use the joystick (so if you try to use both at once you'll find it jerking constantly back to the center.) 

I can tell you one thing though.  Things like using the bed can still be done without a problem.  Just move your character more or less right onto the bed, crystal, etc and you'll notice a little white light appear overhead.  Then just press the button mapped to sing/fire/etc (or even use one mapped to a mouse button if you prefer.)  This lets you interact with objects like that.  No need for a cursor to do that much at least.

Perhaps it would be easier to aim and control the singing if you could see a cursor just for those?  Then again, I'm not really sure if it would or not.  Mostly I think I just want it to allow more precision.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2007, 08:55:16 am by Nazo »

Offline doninss

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Re: Suggestion: Better standard gamepad support
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2007, 03:54:01 am »
Being able to see the cursor (and move it with the mouse) while using a joypad is what I'd love to see. The analog thumb-stick is so much better than WASD (comfort, granularity), but I really miss the mouse and cursor for aiming. I also miss being able to lock on the charged shots.