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1

General / Re: Aquaria hit the P2P

« on: February 17, 2008, 02:13:39 am »

Well that was a nice big useless post.

And it makes me wonder if you downloaded Aquaria through pirating.

Okay, that wasa bit rude, but seriously, did YOU even tried looking it from another point of view? With pretty much every action I do, I look what concequences this may have, to whom, and if it's good or not. No, pirating is not good and can have bad concequences, but doesn't most of the time.
And that agreement in games is utter bullshit, I have taken several games, LIKE CnC, Red Alert 2, where I actually read the License agreement, and there was nothing no shit in that said I could actually request a new CD.

If it really matters that much to you, no, I did not pirate Aquaria, but I haven't bought it yet either.  Only played the demo, but you're free to make any assumptions you want since I'll have no way to prove this to you.  And I'm not attempting to drag your name through the mud, just using your speeches as an example to make my point.  Because you're not the only one to have said or thought these things.  A lot of people I knew in college believed the same things.  And I did try to look at it from your point of view.  Here is what you said:

I download movies because Cinema's are expensive, we used to pay 5f that's like.. 2.60€ now, you know what we pay for it nowadays? 12.50€ for the simple movies, while there are also movies of 15€ and 20€, so please, I really think I have all right to actually download 2 or 3 movies with every movie I watch in the Cinema, and I also buy A LOT of DVDs we have LOADS of them.

You buy "a lot of DVDs", got it.  But I couldn't figure out how you can jump from that to "I have all right to actually download 2 or 3 movies".  Why?  Is it your personal mission in life to watch every movie ever made?  Did you buy the wrong ones and wished you had gotten the ones you don't own instead?  To me, it's just basically the same as believing, "I download movies because it's easy and free, and I'll never get caught".  But it's so hard to get people to say this, because they don't want to admit that they're thieves!  Do you see what I'm trying to say?

About the EULA, I didn't mean that it tells you how to order a new CD.  I meant that there's usually a clause that says "Do not distribute this game, attempt to resell it, blah blah".  I feel bad that you would have to pay for the game every time that you broke it, though I probably would also caution you to be more careful.  If the game stops working and you didn't scratch it or break it, you can usually return it to the company for a cheap replacement.  You may feel entitled to a free replacement via the Internet, but that doesn't make it right.

Doesn't have a consequence most of the time?  Have you ever heard of the butterfly effect?  If you were really the only one committing piracy, then yeah, there isn't much of a consequence.  But being part of a community (and let's face it, if you have access to downloadable material, you are one of them) means you have a much greater impact than any one individual.  The nature of bittorrents means that you become another cog in the machine.  This isn't something you can wash your hands free of because you're not as bad as the rest of them.

(All that said and done, I'm sure you're an okay guy in real life.  I may feel a bit disappointed in the train of thought used to arrive at the result, but what's one anonymous guy's opinion matter on the Internet?)

I think claiming a moral imperative against pirating 'abandonware' is a bit much. Sure, anyone who attempts to make a legal distinction doesn't know what they're talking about, but leaving classics untouched at the whims of bean counters, particularly in an age where the selling of products for download is so effortless, strikes me as an entirely arbitrary proscription - the tenth commandment is not Thou Shalt Not Breach Copyright. I don't particularly feel that any other piracy is justifiable, but I'm not going to judge anyone in that regard. Unless they try to justify it

Well, trying to legitimize their actions is just a load of bologna.  The disclaimers on these sites say things such as "It is legal to download this game if the company has gone out of business" or "You are authorized to download one copy to replace your own if you lost or broke yours".  I remember claims on rom servers saying "You can download roms for 24 hours before being required to delete them".  The hell?  They're just confusing the ones who don't want to break any laws, and the real pirates are pretty much going to ignore it anyway.  It's just wishful thinking and vain attempts to avoid lawsuits.

How many games would have been lost to the cosmos if someone wasn't keeping a backup copy of it somewhere?  You could do a simple search for "roms" or "abandonware" and see huge lists of games you probably never even heard of.  Now, if you were saving these games for posterity, that'd be a commendable effort.  You'll be praised and lauded by others who appreciate the free exchange and preservation of data.  It's like being the Internet version of Robin Hood or something.  But these sites basically operate on the premise of, who's going to stop us?  I'm not an accountant or lawyer, but I would be willing to guess that with these games being thrown around in disregard of copyright laws, it basically means that your copyright is worth jack shit.  Why do we even have copyright laws then?  Why do they have a 100 year lifespan and not just die with the company?  (This is a whole different beast of a discussion though)

Maybe people who download abandonware consider themselves connoisseurs  or historians or anti-copyright activists.  Just realize that you're indulging in a guilty pleasure.

I thought that the basic point was that, if you torrent your a bad guy. Doesn't matter whether you torrent off EA or off Bit blot. Your still a pirate. Alphasoldier and Glamador tried to justify it, but as alpha explained later, he was just joking.

Fynn has kind of strayed off now, saying why we should not torrent as i understand it.

I think the "moral significance" of torrenting and pirating stems from the intentions of the torrenter.  I know people who torrent for the simple reason that they don't feel like paying for something.  Then there are people who have reasons aside from pure greed.  If you're intention is to either pay for, or delete what you've downloaded once you've "demoed" it then I think it's equivalent to say, watching a movie on TV, or playing a game demo and then going out and buying the full version.  It's all about what you INTEND at the time.

Wrong. Its not about what you intend. The means do not justify the ends, nor does the end justify the means. I dont give a damn what your reasons are for torrenting.

Ok, if he really was joking, I must have missed that, and I apologize.  Sometimes it's hard to tell what a person means.  If they add a smiley after a sentence, I can't tell if they're making a tongue-in-cheek comment, or just softening the impact of what they're really trying to say.  The statement of not giving singers more money than they deserved seemed like one of those thought processes that I was addressing in my post.

The idea of being a bad guy is subjective.  I don't really think anyone here thinks of themselves as a bad guy, and can argue that they'll leave this world a better place than it was.  But if I get caught downloading the newest Pokemon game by the ESA, no argument in the world is going to exonerate me.  When I was offering examples of why one shouldn't pirate, it was to try to show the effects of their actions.  Whether it be showing a different side of the morality equation, or a cause and effect.  I hate to be so blunt, but if one really believes that it's perfectly okay to pirate something and there aren't any consequences, then that person is truly naive.  You could simply just go without whatever it is you want; not all desires are meant to be fulfilled.

If you played a game demo or watched a TV broadcast of a movie, it was because this was something the makers wanted you to have.  If you download a movie to "demo" it, how is this any different than watching it without paying?  What if you didn't like it?  You don't end up paying for it, but have reaped the benefit of having watched it at least once.  You basically got something for nothing.  Surely you can see the problem with this.  It's like holding the company's product hostage and saying, "I'll pay for it if I think it's worth it".  This line of thought is only acceptable if you haven't obtained the product, and seems kind of silly when you've already gotten what you wanted, because you're holding all the cards now.

To me, there's a fundamental difference between saying, "I'm gonna download this because I'm just a cheap bastard who can't be arsed to pay for stuff" and "I'm gonna download this because it's not really hurting anyone, and I still go to church, donate to charity and pay my taxes".  The former realizes that what he's doing is wrong and accepts his fate, but the latter has some sort of regret for his actions or doesn't want to face the responsibilities it entails.  I don't want to imply that the hardened criminal is on a higher ethical tier than the man who steals food to survive.  But whether you think that companies don't deserve money, or can't be bothered to do things the legitimate way, or even that you somehow deserve something, is not an honest excuse for these crimes.  In our society, the poor man would receive a much lighter sentence, but is still viewed as a thief.

Whether it's games, movies, music, or anime, every time you download something without paying for it is a blow to the industry.  Producers, publishers, middle-men, retailers and end-users are all part of the equation, and someone gets affected.  One little freebie for yourself might not seem so wrong.  But think of this analogy: water is still water at 99 degrees Celsius, and it's that last degree that makes all the difference.  Everything tends to add up.  Heh, almost like global warming.

What is the point I'm trying to make?  If you pirated something, you did wrong.  Just be honest to yourself.  If you want to stay on the right side of the law, there's always alternatives available to you.  But whenever you cross the line, it was your own choice to do it; no one forced you.  And whether you want to admit it or not, it was done because it was the path of least resistance and greatest personal reward.  It's easy to be a scofflaw when the odds of being punished are one in a million.  It's human nature.  It's a sad state of our society, but c'est la vie.

Like I said, I don't really care what you download or how often you do it.  I don't want to be the morality police, though inkblob may have been close with the Jiminy comparison.  It's a free country (or so I hear), and a free Internet.  But don't sugar-coat your deeds like you're trying to balance some karmic scale.  You relinquished your position on the right side of the law; don't try to claim you're still on the right side of ethics as well, unless it were a matter of life or death.  Maybe it just confuses me how people can occasionally "dabble" in piracy and still try to appear as some model citizen.  In my opinion, the less said about your piracy, the better.

---

@Glamador:
I just saw your post while I was still editing mine.  Yeah, it was long, but I just want to minimize the number of times I post, by saying all that I can at once.  I can empathize with your position.  We all want nice things, whether or not we can afford it.  Being a full-time student can come with an enormous workload, with deadlines to meet and tons of stress to boot.  Perhaps games and anime are better than sex and drugs (probably subject to change depending on who you ask).  If given the choice between downloading a few games or shows, or having a depressed student drop out of school and have their life spiral downward, I'd be hard pressed to defend copyrights.  But you've made it clear that you are content with this course of action.  Anyway, piracy is simply weighing risk vs. reward.

I guess if you do realize that despite your predicament, your actions will still have an impact on the industries you love or depend on, then that's about all I can hope for.  And you also realize that people will tend to indulge themselves before others, which helps clear up the distinction between an "Aquaria pirate" and the others.  It's just a matter of perspective and priorities; we're not all saints.  But we can still wag our fingers at each other.

2

General / Re: Aquaria hit the P2P

« on: February 16, 2008, 08:26:02 am »

@cookiecaper:
Although unrelated to my previous post, I agree with a lot of the points you made.  Adding in anti-hacker measures to games just makes them more determined to crack it, while at the same time upsetting the real customers.  I think something like this was added into BioShock?

@Cliftor:
It's cute to see how much you'd enjoy seeing these bad guys get their comeuppance, but most crackers can catch these kinds of things.  That's kind of why they're in the business.  We saw how much trouble 2K Games made with their SecuROM junk.  What was it, 2 weeks until a crack came out?  And the funny thing is, a lot of paying customers actually downloaded the crack too, just to get around it!  The only people who'll get screwed over will be the unlucky paying customers.

@Xiagan, Cruxx & others:
Thanks, I appreciate it.  I might've stirred the pot a bit, not to make enemies, but as I mentioned to inkblob, I just can't stand seeing these kinds of statements, especially on this kind of board (or even thread).  Pooing on pirates who steal the game you love, while admitting to theft in other venues, just screams for a wake-up call.

welcome to the forum Fynn, glad you joined just to admonish everyone.  is this a clever 'belly of the whale' reference to Pinocchio? didn't know which way to turn but now our conscience, Jiminy is here.

Thanks for the welcome.  And I didn't claim to be some great moral compass that everyone should follow.  Just wanted to point out the inconsistencies of those who are supporting Bit Blot while at the same time admitting to the same crime that started this thread.  What can I say, I abhor hypocrisy.

Did I say it would hold up in court?  Nope.  Why don't I buy a movie instead of an anime?  Becuase I wanted an anime NOT a movie that's why.  It's not the path of least resistance, it's because absortitant prices have completely barred me from doing one of the things I love to do, watch anime.  I'm stealing it.  Plain and simple.  If they want to price their product so high that the people who want to buy it can't without starving, then I'm not giving them that satisfaction.  Also, I do purchase anime overseas or from eBay.  But that's in japanese, and I prefer it in english.

In short, when it comes to anime, I'm not taking any kind of moral high ground at all.  I don't download anything else illegally IF I CAN HELP IT.  I always go out of my way to buy things legally, if the situation warrants it.  But I'm not going to continue to defend my actions, because what you think doesn't matter.  I'm essentially a very selfish person, with a moderately good sense of morality.  I know full well that if I don't support these products somehow, then they will cease being made, and that is the LAST thing I want.

The quip about courts was just a figure of speech (or was it?).  And the part about buying a movie instead of anime was sarcasm (which I hear doesn't translate well over the internet).

The last time I checked, watching anime wasn't a matter of life or death.  If saving $25 for an anime video is a choice between starvation or not, I'd say you have more pressing issues to address.  Just how much anime are you trying to watch, anyway?  You can't eat your cake and have it too.  I don't want to make presumptions, but I'll assume that you bought Aquaria for $30.  Did this purchase make you question whether you'd be able to eat this month or not?

But I'm glad that you can admit to your true colors.  That wasn't so hard, was it?  You're now a step above the rest: a person who knows that they're doing wrong, but just doesn't give a shit about it.  Now if we could just get those pesky anime licensers to stop charging so much.  I'm just baffled at your statement of "I'm stealing it" and how you then arrive at that last statement.  This is a paradox, and one of these statements or intents is false. 

Heh, Welcome and Goodbye.

Seriously man, only coming on here to rant against people, what's the next thing, report this topic to the cops and tell them to track us?

I download movies because Cinema's are expensive, we used to pay 5f that's like.. 2.60€ now, you know what we pay for it nowadays? 12.50€ for the simple movies, while there are also movies of 15€ and 20€, so please, I really think I have all right to actually download 2 or 3 movies with every movie I watch in the Cinema, and I also buy A LOT of DVDs we have LOADS of them.

Further about the games, If I owned a game and I cracked the CD or in any case I think I really have the RIGHT to actually download that game again. Even though at a lot of times I didn't. I bought 5 copies of Tiberian Sun. At this very moment I own one of the two CDs that is NEEDED to play the game. Yes, I could go search for the game, buy it AGAIN and lose more money while I only play it for a while. Sometimes I feel like playing the old classics, if I can't find my CD, my CD is broke or just doesn't work I DOWNLOAD the game. And if someone can point me out that I'm wrong with that I'll change my whole freaking life and never pirate again.

Further on the music, yes, I know it's wrong, yes I know I shouldn't do it, and no it's not a excuse that other people do it too, I know that. I just refuse to search months for a CD that I can just download through torrents or P2P.

You make really good points, I know but this isn't the year 2000 anymore. People pirate, things get hacked, period. There is little you can do about it. Until a super-genius shows up, takes the right side and builds a super anti hack thing, things WILL get hacked and people will get things free.

So far humanity isn't as near as criminal-free and it won't be like that in a long time.

Well, thanks for the welcome, but I only left for a little while.  And no, I won't call the cops, but I will say from personal experience that the law tends to sneak up on you when you least expect it.

Yeah, man!  I remember when movies cost like $5 to watch.  Now it's $10 or more!  Insane!  What did I do about it?  I just stopped going to movie theaters, and read reviews or asked friends about it.  But hey, don't let me stop you, Mr. Deserver.  You've obviously done greater things for society and are entitled to watch a few movies on the sly.

I am sorry for your loss of games, as I too have had the problem of discs getting scratched, broken or even lost.  But you might wanna check the fine print in your user's manual or the EULA before you start mentioning "rights" to download a game.  You know, that big wall o' text that pops up when you install a PC game, but most people just skip?  Have you tried checking warranties, or seeing if the company can replace your broken disc?  I heard Gametap is pretty good at getting lots of games on your computer, maybe C&C is on there?

But in the end, I'm glad that you can finally admit to joining the club of not giving a shit.  It's best not to hide our piratey tendencies.  Given the choice between having to "search months" or "just download" something, why are people still surprised by the answer?

Fynn, if a developer were to re-release something, then It would be with something new added into it. When they stop selling games (old sharewaregames) you can't buy it from someone else. Also, pirating old games once the producer/liscence holder stops selling them does not in any way hurt the developer. Only walmart, when they don't make quite as many sales.

Which I couldn't be assed about, to be honest.

Ok, lemme just make sure I got this right.  After the producer or developer stops "selling" a game, it's perfectly all right to start pirating a game.  Because hey, the people who created it will no longer be compensated for it.  I think the next logical question would be, where does this leave the retailers?

Believe me, I'd love to stick it to Wal-Mart as much as the next guy, but the video game industry depends on the old brick-and-mortar stores and having the presence of games on their shelves.  Do I have to spin out a hypothetical example of stores losing money on sales leading to less demand from producers, which in turn leads to less production overall?  Don't make me do it, please.

Why do you think there's leftover copies of games sitting in bargain bins or on people's auctions on eBay?  Don't tell them that since they don't represent Black Isle Studios (I'm assuming this stems from the Planescape example), they no longer deserve money or compensation.  BIS went out of business, so any money spent on their products is wasted, right?  Might as well pirate!

As for re-releasing, why would it have to include something new?  It could be as simple as making more copies due to fan demand.  Interplay is almost back on its feet I think.  Why not ask them to do a reprint of Torment?  But would they make as much money now if the game wasn't pirated?  Who knows?  Maybe they won't now since it wouldn't turn much of a profit.

it's all well and good to quote AlphaSoldier, Glamador and anyone else who posted their views on downloading media and tear them a new one, it's quite easy too. they chose to be honest, and it's rather refreshing to see someone say openly their views on a matter.  they did not have to post their views, but being so honest about something like this it will attract do-gooder copynistas who think the most important thing plauging the world is intellectual property infringment.  (c) laws are different in different states and countries and are in a great state of flux. artists and companies are meeting the new marketplace head on with new methods of selling their product. Radiohead let the buyers choose how much to spend on their new album and it became the top selling album in the US.  I'm finding the people waving the flaming flag of copyrights are generally douches, they arn't the nicest people to begin with and here's a great cause to be twit pretty much anywhere. sure there is currently legal backing, but in many countries it's either unenforced, unenforcable or going to change. pirates who are douches should be busted, those who download the whole net and redistribute it without a care for where it came from, but lay off the college kid who brings down the hard to get album or someone who dosn't want to be gouged seeing an ok movie.  in my day to day real life, I've yet to run into someone who dosn't pirate something on some level. that's including businesses, students, parents, neighbours, everyone who the topic has come up. everyone seems to have their own line in the ethical beach, some draw it at no music, some at not their music, some just their music, some just the cds they bought, some don't care.

what's important here is that people are finding out about the game, sometimes through pirated copies and then going out and buying it for whatever reason. I personally wasn't guilted, I support good products and buy software that's been useful or very entertaining to me. I'd never be motivated by guilt, some might be, but if my guess is that if anyone saw this product and authentically liked it they would be buying it out of support and appreciation. my original point was I got to this game via p2p exposure, so it's not all doom, there is an unquantifiable effect of it being out there in the wild. but really, those people who are impulse pirating it would not have bought the game anyways, so they are at least getting exposure to it and their friends might see it ( like in my case ) so hard to say if it's really impacting sales at all, helping out or breaking even.

Geez, why'd you have to go and get me all ready to reply, just to end up saying stuff that I mostly agree with anyway?  I didn't think of it as tearing them a new one.  Just trying to get them to see things from another point of view (admittedly, mine).  I thought this was a thread on people downloading Aquaria, after all.  But being able to point out inconsistencies in their posts helps build my case.  And in their responses, they managed to say that they were aware of what they were doing, but just couldn't be bothered to take the legal approach.  Maybe not completely free of justifications, but about as good as it'll get.

But I am curious, why are you opposed to those who fight copyright infringement?  How will we be able to distinguish the "douche pirates" from the "college kid" (not necessarily mutually exclusive)?  If your best friend received a subpoena to appear in court for distributing copyrighted material, would you support him wholeheartedly with testimony to his good nature, even if his computer was hosting the equivalent of Suprnova?  For some reason, I'm reminded of the old anti-drug conundrum: Who's easier to go after, the drug dealers or the drug users?  I hate the MPAA and RIAA too, but can you honest-to-god tell me that they have no right to do it?  I feel bad for the musicians getting screwed by the record industry, and the writers by the entertainment biz.  But this is getting a bit off-topic now.

I know things get pirated on a daily basis, but what does this really say about our society?  This stuff is so easy to get, it's like picking up a $20 bill off the ground and just keeping it.  Should we try to change people's morality?  Should we just keep putting in anti-piracy measures and cross our fingers hoping to make a profit?  Or we could just own up to the fact that this stuff is gonna get downloaded, and there's really not much anyone can do about it.

P.S. I don't hate any of you guys for pirating or whatever, I'm not your mother.  You could drive your hot pink 1967 Cadillac Eldorado convertible, with whale skin hubcaps and all-leather cow interior and big brown baby seal eyes for headlights, at 115 miles per hour getting one mile per gallon, etc etc. for all I care.  Just realize that there are always consequences to your actions, whether apparent or not.  The people who downloaded Aquaria are pretty much using the same reasoning that's been shown here, whether it's justified or not.  And like it or not, everyone's basically in the same boat.

3

General / Re: Aquaria hit the P2P

« on: February 11, 2008, 03:08:32 am »

This is pretty funny.  How can you take the moral high ground and still admit to this?  If you use torrents to download something you shouldn't have, then you did bad.  Don't sugar coat it or try to hide it with these flimsy justifications.  Best to just man up, or keep quiet.

I think it's the ultimate in irony when there's comments from people saying "Please buy this game" or "Support the developers" under an Aquaria torrent file.  Suddenly they develop a conscience about short-changing Alec and Derek, but seem to be fine with carrying on downloading all the other stuff on the site.

I'm sorry but stealing a game from indie devs is ridiculous. Sure I download torrents all the time, but it's stuff that I can't get anyother way (PlaneScape Torment) or from a company that has made alot of money from the game (StarCraft).

Makes me mad!

As far as I know, you can still find Planescape: Torment on eBay or even in bargain bins.  Does the auction seller or store owner not deserve your business? And doesn't Blizzard still deserve to make money on their own creation, whether you think they deserve it or not?  Why not just own up to the fact that you're taking the path of least resistance (and least payment)?

The only thing I download nowadays are legal torrents, foreign things that I couldn't get any other way, and anime.  I refuse to purchase anime in stores because it is HORRIFYINGLY overpriced.  25 dollars for less than 2 hours of content?  You can get a 2 hour movie for 10-15 bucks depending on its age.  As far as cost per minute, anime pricing is atrocious.

There are places to order imports, but it would require knowing where to look, and money of course.  Anime costs too much to justify obtaining it legally? This is different from the people who pirate movies and games, how? If it costs more than a movie, then why not just buy a movie instead? 

I use torrents for:
1. Movies, the Cinema's here are HELLISH expensive and yes I go there from time to time and alot of Movies are not worth their money.
2. Games that I already own or have owned and lost for any reason.
3. Games that have no demo. I just want to try it and most of the time if I like it I buy the original afterwards.
4. Games who aren't worth their value in the stores. Short and ugly games.
5. Music. Somehow I never bought a actual Music CD or a Album or anything else, even thouhg I love to listen to music. Must be because Napster existed in the time that I got into the internet and downloading.

Yes I use torrents alot, but all that I actually do with it doesn't really seem all that illegal, more likely righteous, besides the music... but who doesn't do that? I mean those singers are already rich enough, no need to give them more money. =p

1. So you wanted to watch the movie, but just didn't feel like paying for it.  Okay.
2. This might make you feel okay, but read the description about torrents below.
3. You must be made of greater moral fiber than many others I know.  Most people would just stop once they have the game.
4. Isn't this what the whole situation is revolving around? (Aquaria hitting P2P I mean, short and ugly may not apply)
5. Again, you want the music, but don't want to pay for it.

Even if you try to justify your own reasons for downloading something, this won't hold up in court.  Every time you connect to a torrent, you're just helping other people get the same thing, which kind of makes you an accomplice to the crime.  How did it go?  Some lady was found sharing 12 songs on Kazaa or something and got sued by the RIAA for $200,000, even though her room was filled with CDs she paid for.  But hey, at least you saved a few bucks and you're not padding the wallets of those millionaire singers, right?  Just hope that you never get caught.

My option on the matter is that pirating is wrong.

That being said, when a gamemaker is no longer supporting a game/selling it, it's pretty reasonable to torrent it.

The bottom line though, is that pirating opens up the game to people who wouldn't otherwise buy it. They'll tell they're friends, they might be guiltied into it, and when the next big bitblot game comes out, they're going to be ready. It's not something to encourage, but it's not necessarily a bad thing.

Sounds like the "abandonware" argument.  If you can't find it in a store, it's free.  But what happens to the copyright holders, who might be thinking of re-releasing the game?  They probably just lost a lot of sales.  What about the brick and mortar stores that paid the developer for the game, but never got to sell it?  If you try to draw the line somewhere on when you can or can't download something, there will always be an argument to draw a new line closer.

The company isn't selling the game anymore?  There's no way to help their business, I should be able to download it.
The game costs $80?  That's too much, I should be able to download it.
There's only 100 copies in existence?  I'll never be able to find it, I should be able to download it.
I already had the game, but lost it or traded it away?  I already paid for it once, I should be able to download it.

You can go on as long as you like.  There is no "legal" way to do this, and the sooner you realize it, the sooner you'll see that these lines are just the limits of our conscience.  But whatever helps you sleep at night.