Bit Blot Forum
Aquaria => General => Topic started by: novelweapons on January 26, 2008, 10:15:06 pm
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Whoa.
I didn't even know any of this existed until two days ago!
I haven't been up-to-date on the indie games scene for some time now; in fact the last freeware release that I played was BES' Eternal Daughter. When I came across Aquaria on Metacritic, I decided to check out the site on a whim. As soon as I saw Mr. Yu's name attached, my response was something like "you have to be sh*tting me" ;D . And of course I bought Aquaria without hesitation.
Let me just say that the kid's come a long way from "Trigger Happy" on the KnP engine! Seriously though,
Aquaria is f*cking gorgeous. There is nothing that I could say about it that hasn't been said already... his attention to detail is phenominal. Exploring the gameworld and taking in the beautiful and diverse aquatic life in each area is motivation to continue in and of itself.
Second...
I applaud the decision to keep Aquaria absolutely open-ended with no hand-holding or defined goal gameplay. I explored the universe at my own speed and became awe-struck and terrified right with Nadja. At times I did become lost, but I found this an unavoidable hurdle in a gameworld so massive and filled to the brim with secrets. Even the puzzles were very organic; I was provided with enough clues to find my way around them by examining the environment and experimenting with my song powers.
And last...
I'm still not done! I've just reached The Abyss after completely exploring the Kelp Forest. In fact, why am I still typing this when the warm waters of Aquaria await?
Thanks Bit Blot.
- Nate
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I love the game myself. But while I completely agree with you that a huge open world makes getting lost easy, there should be some non-spoiler way to figure out what to do next, without having to traverse the entire world at random. Maybe a log of what Naija says with clear references to where it applies? How about somehow tagging places which you could not access initially, on the map? I have a terrible memory, and I need reminders of things I may have learned 8 hours of gameplay earlier. Oh, how about this? Let the user make notes on the map, a la Zelda Phantom Hourglass.
My other "God I'm lost" comment about Aquaria relates to the bosses. When you first encounter some of them, you have absolutely no idea if what you're doing is at all effective, or if you even have what it takes yet to tackle them. As an example, I abandoned all attempts to defeat Mithalas initially, thinking that I needed something I didn't have yet to do any damage. (Something Naija said reinforced this notion.) Turns out I did, but the obscure strategy simply did not occur to me. This is one place where I eventually resorted to a spoiler. I absolutely HATE having to do that. Makes me feel like a cheater.
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I think its a pretty subjective thing in general. Design-wise you choose how much information to give the player. A lot of modern games tend to spell everything out so that nobody has a chance of getting lost. I personally find that I detach from games when they have too many direct "hints". (in some games they tend to be more like instructions)
I could see how someone could get totally lost in Aquaria, but part of me thinks that having that possibility in there is important; "feeling lost".
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Right. I hate games that lead me by the nose. What I meant by "non-spoiler way" is narrowing down options based on what your alter ego *already discovered*. Some tag for unexplored paths, "big purple thing blocks me here", "pitch black here", etc. If I had a perfect memory, I wouldn't need them. Sadly, I don't. I think forcing the player to seek outside hints is *worse* than having a few too many hints. If something is nearly impossible to discern within the confines of the game, the results are frustration and that feeling of defeat after looking it up. Not the emotions to promote. I'm guessing the hardest thing about striking the proper balance for a small independent developer is that the main game testers already know how to go about playing the game. What's obvious to them may be inscrutable to others, but how can you be sure? I didn't follow the development of Aquaria. Did you have play testers without any kind of walkthroughs?
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If something is nearly impossible to discern within the confines of the game, ...
But that is different for everybody. I had no problem figuring out some stuff others found too difficult and other way round.
Did you have play testers without any kind of walkthroughs?
I'm quite sure they had.
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I don't think Aquaria needs more hints (well, except maybe for Li, which you can easily bypass even when you know where to look), but being able to add our own notes to the map would have been a good idea, as being able to replay what Naija say. After all, it sucks a bit having to restart the game because you where not attentive to what Naija said.
Not that this have to change in Aquaria, but thinking about it in your next games would be nice. A logbook where the player can write in-game would probably be enough of a memory helper for a lot of players (well, It would have helped me).
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If something is nearly impossible to discern within the confines of the game, ...
But that is different for everybody. I had no problem figuring out some stuff others found too difficult and other way round.
Did you have play testers without any kind of walkthroughs?
I'm quite sure they had.
Actualy we didn't. It was part of the play test. During the first run, you need to get a fresh look on the game and see how people react while they play, then tweak the gameplay to make them feel the way the design was suppose to. If Alec or Derek would've provided us with walkthrough, we would not have been able to get that "virgin" feel.
Of course, after the first runs, we ended up using some walkthroughs and guides to test the funcitonalities and see if everything worked like planned. But, at first, we started with nothing, just to see how we felt.
The first time I played, I missed a lot of stuff. Afterwards, I saw pretty much everything. Some testers found everything possible the first time around tho (at least if I remember well :P) . In the end it depends on the player. Some like to explore, others don't (or others aren't exploring thoroughly when doing so). I wish I could give you some personal example but the version I first played is too different so my examples would be irrelevant :P
And I liked the fact that you could go where you wanted to when you wanted to. I feel that it makes the world more believable. You know it's a stupid idea to wander off in a strange place filled with danger, without any source of light, but nobody is gonna stop you from doing it, like in "real life" :) . Well, it's my opinion ;)
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Not that this have to change in Aquaria, but thinking about it in your next games would be nice. A logbook where the player can write in-game would probably be enough of a memory helper for a lot of players (well, It would have helped me).
It's called grabbing a paper and pencil. =p
And I totally concur with Guert's last statement. It's also something that's obviously in Metroid, a very good property imho.
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Well ever since I've played Phantom Hourglass I've always thought the ability to make on the fly notations, drawings, and markers on the map was a TERRIFIC idea. I think you underestimate the convenience and pure gimmick factor that really makes that kind of thing shine.
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something I was thinking of, instead of making handwritten notes, was custom icons you can place anywhere. pushpins you can put anywhere and they mean whatever you want. they arn't in English because Aquarian has it's own script, but they would be glyphs like seahorses, jellies, clams, that sort of thing. then when you come by something suspicious in the game, open up the map, drop an icon and it would be persistent like the other game boss, save and portal icons you see no matter what map section you are on. I would have used that for blue crystals, suspicious rock formations, fish trails and definitely other things.
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something I was thinking of, instead of making handwritten notes, was custom icons you can place anywhere. pushpins you can put anywhere and they mean whatever you want. they arn't in English because Aquarian has it's own script, but they would be glyphs like seahorses, jellies, clams, that sort of thing. then when you come by something suspicious in the game, open up the map, drop an icon and it would be persistent like the other game boss, save and portal icons you see no matter what map section you are on. I would have used that for blue crystals, suspicious rock formations, fish trails and definitely other things.
Heh, we had that at one point. Generic icons you could drag around.
I also considered drawing on the map at one point.
Both ideas got scraped, but I can't remember exactly why.
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And I liked the fact that you could go where you wanted to when you wanted to. I feel that it makes the world more believable. You know it's a stupid idea to wander off in a strange place filled with danger, without any source of light, but nobody is gonna stop you from doing it, like in "real life" :) . Well, it's my opinion ;)
I blindy stormed the abyss with nothing but my idiocy in tow, and freakishly made it out via turtle ( first turtle I ran into too :o ) I'd still be curious to hear what sort of evolution the game took even if the examples are not relevant :)
Heh, we had that at one point. Generic icons you could drag around.
I also considered drawing on the map at one point.
Both ideas got scraped, but I can't remember exactly why.
if you can't remember exactly then you should definitely implement it now ;D
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I think if he tries to put them in again, he will find out again why he has let them out.
But indeed, Icons, maybe with text, would be a nice feature to add to the map. Available for dragging around, making a LIMITED amount of icons, dun want the whole map to be flooded.
And Glamador, yes, I also own Phantom hourglass and I liked the idea, but that has nothing to do with non-map funtions. Do people really need a notebook ON the game? Just grab paper and a pencil.
For map, yes. For general gameplay, no, has no use. Well, I'm lying, it does has use, but the trouble to go through with it to make it is too big then the reward you get from it. =p
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Did you have play testers without any kind of walkthroughs?
I'm quite sure they had.
Actualy we didn't.
That's what I meant. I'm quite sure they had testers without any kind of wlkthrough.
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Testers mostly test the games from an view of average player. So there can't be any walkthroughs. Beta-testers are different, and they look for the bugs, so they have to know about some of the things in-game.
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But alpha, I'm only talking about the map. You make NOTES about games? Besides, I don't have a pencil and paper on-hand. I would have to get some out of my backpack. And that's too much work. Besides, that causes clutter, wastes paper, and like I said before, notes on the map are just CONVENIENT. It would work just like in PH, you could mark down the location of things quickly without having to try and describe it to yourself (as you would on pencil and paper) and you could mark down the songs that arn't on your list for easy reference. Like the whale song. I don't know why you're so strongly insisting on pencil & paper when there are clearly more benefits to the notes being actually ON the map.
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You haven't written the whale song, for example, down?
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*looks at paper note on beside keyboard*
whale song ( and symbols )
symbols for what octopus sings and the colours below
a whole bunch of symbols written down trying to figure out the ghost song sequence
a small map of the fish cave and the symbols in each one
some song notes, have no idea what they are for ( vertical leaf, circle, teardrop and star? )
some places that I had to check out still ( invincible bug in grotto, toy in city, whale song, sun temple by crystal, jelly bouncy things, sing to critters )
Mithalis entrance sing to tadpoles based on eye colour
building top right 3 leaves
spicey meat Mithalis pink seaslug ( sort of random there huh )
I played a lot of text adventures and other puzzle games ( Myst, Neverhood, etc ) so having pen and paper beside me gaming was just an extension of the game. if the game didn't have a built in notebook ( like Dungeon Siege, one of the best auto notebooks I've seen ) then I'd just improvise.
I agree AS that a very limited amount of icons would be best. it would probably hamper game performance if there was too many on the screen as well, and you would really only need x amount. possibly something like 5 different icons in 4 different colours.
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Thank you thank you than you thank you inkblob!
I also take alot of notes, I always have a pen and paper around SOMEwhere, just if I find something interesting, stuff I have to remind and other things.. Seeing you said that I can come out clear too. =p
My mind is made with holes, alot of things in my memory just go through it, making me forget, which is why stuff like a notepad is handy for remembering such things. And I'm not the only one, not everyone has a photographic memory and the simplest thing is just to grab a pencil and paper, not to go to a forum and start asking stuff from the creators that you can do too.
/rant
Anyway, nothing personal, only put myself to shame there and my mind's kind of sleepy, I should get sleep.
I just still think pen and paper is better then nagging about extra options. That's just the way it is~
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Every criticism of this game I've seen on these boards have been very constructive. This is the kind of thing a good artist loves to hear, and is all part of the ongoing dialog between those who create and the people who pay for and consume their work.
I think we're having all these threads about the mapping system because it does a few odd things that if either one were more transparent, the other would be largely irrelevant. The first one is the lack of "fog of war" progress tracked on all areas. We all know that this is a technical problem in the game as of this writing, but if implemented you could glance at the map and know where you had been. If, say you'd obtained an ability and we're looking for places that you were previously blocked from, this would narrow down where those barriers might be immensely.
Second, the game already has a discovery based icon system but it's used in a way that doesn't make much sense. It tells you where a boss was after you've beaten it, and found memories but I don't see why you'd really need to know that other than not to wander down that way again. Perhaps these are meant as check marks of a sort. It also marks some ability based barriers like the nature form "blue dome" shortcuts but not others, like blue crystals, darkness, and impassable currents.
If either of these things we're as suggested, these threads probably wouldn't exist and the map system would not be mentioned as a strike against the game in any of the reviews. As it is, it's in almost all of them.
Paper is good for things like inkblot listed, but when you want to notate something like where a blue crystal is located, things get a lot more involved. You either end up drawing a map, which would be difficult and time consuming in a game like this or you give yourself directions that probably make a lot of sense when you write them, but may not make so much when you try to follow them 10 hours of gameplay later.
Some form of manual map notation system would in no way take away from the experience, and would be more in line with modern game design conveniences. Marking the map up yourself is fun and very satisfying when it pays off. For some it would be even more fun than wandering around later on trying to find the x or y that you recall seeing. But if you prefer that, you wouldn't have to use it. It's an excellent compromise.
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Writing on the map doesn't really make sense at this point. You already have a marker system, its just that people are raving mad because it doesn't mark certain things.
Having moving markers didn't make sense because if we added it, (like say a bunch of rock markers that you could use) people would be like: wtf... why doesn't it just auto-place all the rocks for me when I pass them?
Adding something like markers for blue crystals would be easily done and fit into the current system. Why add a complicated map notation system, if the current one could be easily adjusted to mark more things, if that's what the problem really is.
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I suggested that as a compromise between the the two sides of this argument. I understand it would probably be too much work to be worth it at this point. Adding stuff to the current discovery based icon system would solve the problem, but I'm assuming there were reasons you have it mark some things and not others. In the case of the blue crystals, I thought you may have intended the player to not give them much thought until the ability to make use of them is unlocked. And when you do get that ability part of the fun and exploratory spirit of the game would be finding them again out of vague recollection of seeing them, or notes you might have made. If they're all marked on the map when you do get that ability, visiting them all might feel more like going down a checklist than exploration.
(I know I don't need to say this, but I'm afraid I'm sounding like a smart ass about this whole thing.) You're the game designer, bro. If you don't thing any changes need be made then don't make any. It's your game and it's very fun and playable as it is.
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Yeah, there were certain things that didn't feel necessary to add. But then everyone's like "the map system sucks!". So I'm trying to figure out exactly what could be done that would actually improve the game, and I don't really see any clear solution yet.
In terms of the blue crystals, exactly it keeps them more mysterious if they're kept off the map. The Spirit form was never explained with hints and was always meant as an optional form for finding some secret areas and an alternate way to beat some things.
I think maybe the boss for the Spirit form is a bit too easy.
A drawing-on-the-map feature would be cool, but its like... what does it add at this point. Would it make the game better or would it conflict with what's there.
It might make sense if you took everything out of the game and had the player draw everything... but then we'd get reviews complaining about how the map system "forces" you to work too hard. (like the reviews complaining about writing on the map in Zelda DS, which I thought was a lot of fun)
Having both seems a bit weird to me, for some reason.
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Yeah, there were certain things that didn't feel necessary to add. But then everyone's like "the map system sucks!". So I'm trying to figure out exactly what could be done that would actually improve the game, and I don't really see any clear solution yet.
In terms of the blue crystals, exactly it keeps them more mysterious if they're kept off the map. The Spirit form was never explained with hints and was always meant as an optional form for finding some secret areas and an alternate way to beat some things.
I think maybe the boss for the Spirit form is a bit too easy.
it would be great if you could get away with no instructions at all. just here's the game, figure it out. those sorts of games are great but not for mass appeal, it's a niche group who enjoys amnesia and a mystery toolbox.
I sort of feel spirit form was under utilized, and that's only because the game is so stuffed and realized. when I got spirit form initially, and her shuddering apprehension I initially thought it might open up a ghost level or she would ~ see dead people ~
it seemed mostly to be the blue key with a couple of easter eggs. I had no idea anything was optional and my ADD won't let me leave any stoned unturned ( or unbound ) so wouldn't have not got spirit form because it wasn't necessary. there were treasures to get, and some of those treasures might do stuff! the couple of things that you could do in spirit form I found out after I finished the game and looking through threads, but really can't see how it would help in either instance really.
stuff happening with the actual ghosts, a spirit map, something to do with stopping time for strategy, like a room with crystals here and there and some crazy badass boss who you have to attack from behind. NOT that I'm complaining, it just seemed to be a vestigial form compared to others.
with the map, I had no real problem with it during play. I didn't know about zooming and dragging until quite far through which was pretty helpful. I'd sooner see the blue crystals be added manually then auto added like the nature hatch portals for your reasoning being they are mysterious. you can add them if you want, but to auto add them takes away from them. they were there before mapping technology or something ;) if there was a manual icon drop feature I'd definitely use it, but it didn't detract from the game not having it there at the same time. I don't think writing on the map would look very nice, it would take on a football playboard look and take away from the aesthetic imho
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Yeah, that's the only thing I don't get, why YES on the bulbs and NO on the blue crystals?
Because the spirit form is optional?
And inkblob, the spirit form can absorb projectiles from enemies and gain health from it after you got 5 projectiles.
It IS very handy.
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I would personally love a map that doesn't mark anything unless you do it yourself, but I agree it would be a rather "hard line" move that not everybody would be happy with.
Like I said above it's not just one thing about the map that causes raised eyebrows, it breaks down in a few different ways that stack on top of one another. If you could somehow figure out the performance issues behind the complete "fog of war" rendering, and make the change in a future patch, I think that would get people off your nuts about this whole thing.
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Yeah, I still think that it should be possible when you click on a certain part of a map it shows up how the fog of war is, but then again, it has to load that map for all as I know. And you being in another map doesn't help, so you could have it load next to you or something, but that would take a lot of memory, lag and hell I know more.
Further, I think a emptied map with your own icons would be a ok idea, but the only problem is is that the map now already has icons for the most part, you can't just downgrade a game.
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Yeah, that's the only thing I don't get, why YES on the bulbs and NO on the blue crystals?
Because the spirit form is optional?
And inkblob, the spirit form can absorb projectiles from enemies and gain health from it after you got 5 projectiles.
It IS very handy.
I tried this in a pretty projectile intensive area and found it sort of helpful. in those situations I dodge the heat seeking projectiles by doing a loop and having them crash into a projectile ( or ideally a bound rock ) and take out the offending critter. I can see this being more useful with poison darts which seem to hit me more than plain old vanilla projectiles, or I just notice them a lot more. you get beast form before spirit form and she is how I've always racked up health, but it's nice to know a different way :) besides the race, I can't think of any practical use for stopping time tho.
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Yeah, that's the only thing I don't get, why YES on the bulbs and NO on the blue crystals?
Because the spirit form is optional?
That's it. It is a hidden thing like the memories you don't need to beat the game. It is not supposed to be easy to find the additional things you can reach with it. :)