Bit Blot Forum
Aquaria => Gameplay => Topic started by: Sabreur on December 28, 2007, 04:40:14 am
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I didn't like Li when he first showed up. >:(
A large part of the game was the tremendous feeling of solitude. No matter how many bizarre creatures Naija encountered, it didn't change the fact that she was utterly unique and alone. Finding a companion felt like something that should be at the end of the game, not the middle. I seriously considered leaving him in the cave, just to preserve that quiet, calm feeling. I decided against it on the grounds that it might cause me to miss storyline.
He shot things, too. That kind of aggravated me, even if you could turn it off. Naija was plenty strong! She didn't need anybody protecting her! There were even times when I'd much rather sneak past enemies when the overly trigger-happy Li would start a fight anyways. Besides, he looked kinda scrawny. Not exactly an aquatic Prince Charming. He didn't seem too bright either, following Naija around like a pet.
I was pondering where to go next, leaving Naija and Li floating stationary in the water while I thought about possible routes and secrets. Suddenly, Naija and Li moved on their own - and hugged and smiled. It was freaking adorable. ^-^
That was when it all changed for me. Suddenly, Li's over-protectiveness became cute. The trusting way he followed Naija around, putting faith in her experience (even to the point of turning off his weapon if she asked!). The way that he didn't interfere with Naija's chosen life of exploration, instead following her and supporting her as best he could. I started noticing random bits of cuteness, like the way they would look at each other when they weren't doing anything else. I could really understand what Naija saw in him. When he was taken away I actually exclaimed in dismay, and eagerly looked forward to finding the creature responsible and filling it full of energy shots. Thankfully, no one was around to hear my delighted squeal when they were reunited, or I'd still be catching hell for it.
Not bad for a character who never says anything. :)
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I loved when Li showed up. I wasn't expecting it at all and it was nice to see Naija happy for a while.
And you hit the nail on the head with the following/protecting thing. It's a very human thing to do. If you meet a mermaid and she gives you the ability to breathe underwater, you follow her. If she starts shooting stuff and you happen to have a blaster bracelet, you shoot the stuff she shoots.
I was really mad when Li was taken away, but for story reasons I was kinda hoping that was the last you'd see of him. I love bittersweet endings, and although this did give one I still think I would have personally enjoyed it more if Li was never returned. Snatched away in an instant then lost forever! The true power of a creator.
That said, the rest of the Li story is pretty good and obviously helps with the idea of a sequel, so that's good I guess.
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Well if Li had been taken away then I can only assume <SPOILERS MASSIVE SPOILERS> that Mia wouldn't have had to do much convincing to turn Naija evil...it was Li and her children that kept her going after her climactic battle. The ending wouldn't have been as much "bittersweet" and "downright tragic" if Li had never returned.
But of course I've made clear that I never liked Li in the least. I don't care how clingy he was, I don't endear myself to people just because they're there. I need character development darnit!
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Well if Li had been taken away then I can only assume <SPOILERS MASSIVE SPOILERS> that Mia wouldn't have had to do much convincing to turn Naija evil...it was Li and her children that kept her going after her climactic battle. The ending wouldn't have been as much "bittersweet" and "downright tragic" if Li had never returned.
But of course I've made clear that I never liked Li in the least. I don't care how clingy he was, I don't endear myself to people just because they're there. I need character development darnit!
It's weird, normally I would agree with you. But for some reason, I usually end up feeling pretty attached to silent characters - Chrono from Chrono Trigger, Gordon Freeman from Half Life, and now Li. I think it's because I mentally 'fill in' the missing development with whatever I want them to be.
Besides, it would have been hard to give him much development without stealing the show from Naija. It's an aquatic world - verse-mutated or not, he's a surface dweller. The water is Naija's element, which meant that she would inevitably be the one taking the lead and making the major decisions. I don't see how Li could really fit in as anything but a quiet, loyal follower.
Ultimately, I liked Li because of how Naija reacted to him, rather than because of my own impressions of him. The game gave me a lot of empathy of Naija. I wanted her to not be lonely. I cringed at the parts where she felt sad or upset - the freakout in the Mithalas Cathedral was especially unpleasant. The first part of the game made her seem increasingly desperate and alone. Li showed up at just the right time. He made her happy (that freaking hug, I swear...), and that really was enough for me. Naija's a good person, Li makes Naija happy, therefore I like Li. Not exactly high-level logic, but it worked for me.
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I felt much the same way as Sabreur, really. I initially didn't like Li because he went against the feeling of loneliness and solitude that pervaded the rest of the game.
In my case I was so in love with the feeling of being lost completely alone in that world that I turned off my pets most of the time.
I eventually became used to Li and appreciated him more (and yes, seeing him hug Naija helped that by being so sweet...a very nice touch on the part of the devs to include a little random action like that) but my other minor nitpick with him was Dual Form. Dual Form de-emphasized Naija a bit aesthetically...in terms of game mechanics, you'd spend nearly all the time in Dual Form on Li's side, blasting stuff, and then switch to Naija's side for only the briefest moment to let off the scream. I just feel that she should've been granted the "primary" side rather than the more powerful but far less frequently used side.
Yet another minor quibble...so many little things in this game I want to leave feedback on, just because it's so good.
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Well if Li had been taken away then I can only assume <SPOILERS MASSIVE SPOILERS> that Mia wouldn't have had to do much convincing to turn Naija evil...it was Li and her children that kept her going after her climactic battle. The ending wouldn't have been as much "bittersweet" and "downright tragic" if Li had never returned.
But of course I've made clear that I never liked Li in the least. I don't care how clingy he was, I don't endear myself to people just because they're there. I need character development darnit!
Well obviously the ending wouldnt have worked at all if Li hadnt come back. The game would have a different, probably darker ending. Which I am a fan of :D!
Like in Breath of Fire 5, (bof5 spoilers follow) I was really hoping the world would be a charred desert or something when you finally get up there and maybe the game continued for a bit and showed how they'd begin rebuilding the world or something, but nooo lets just have it all green and happy instead. That's much more interesting ._.
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There always has to be a happy ending :). Aquaria shouldn't deserve such a dark end, but in fact it is somehow sad - Naija ends up in a crystal, imprisoned by her own mother. But we have a spoiler and propably a starter for the next adventure - what else is needed? :)
As for the Li, I think he has a special part in this story. Without him, this story would be very different. I didn't like the felling Naija was alone all the time. Li had made this feeling gone. His care and attention for her made the story turn up to be a tale about people and their struggle for personal happiness, freedom and love. Yeah, I had three moments, when I shed a tear - when Naija reched the top of the veil for the first time, when she found her last memory in the deeps of abyss (ahh, the music made this moment very special) and when she hugged with Li for the first time. And when tears come out from my eyes, there must be something special in things that make me do so :). Finally, I would rather say that by finishing this game we just start an epic tale and we won't know what will be next, so now we can only imagine and wait for the sequel ;)
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Hum... Does it make me a bad person the fact that I always treated Li as another of Naija's pets? :(
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Not at all, so did I. But maybe I'm a bad person too....oh well! I endear myself to characters like Chrono and Gordon Freeman and Link as well. But even THEY have backstory and interaction with other characters. You learn about Gordon from how the other characters react and interact with him. You know Link from his body language and his goals and facial expressions. You know Chrono from the way his family talks about him and how his friends talk about him. Every character that's ever been a "silent character" has had something ELSE to show who he is and what his personality is like. Li lacked even basic story. The most we ever knew about him was that he met Naija in a boat long ago. That's not enough for her to instantly fall in love and vise versa! I don't care HOW cute he is! Plus I hate his hair.
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I guess you wanted to post in another topic?
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I've been wondering if Li's a silent character because:
a) He speaks a completely different language so he doesn't bother trying to communicate with words.
b) He just doesn't like talking
c) He talks, but it's just not shown.
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I've been wondering if Li's a silent character because:
a) He speaks a completely different language so he doesn't bother trying to communicate with words.
b) He just doesn't like talking
c) He talks, but it's just not shown.
d) He can't speak underwater, he is a human after all.
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I've been wondering if Li's a silent character because:
a) He speaks a completely different language so he doesn't bother trying to communicate with words.
b) He just doesn't like talking
c) He talks, but it's just not shown.
d) He can't speak underwater, he is a human after all.
So he can now breath underwater but not talk? I don't think we should discuss about normal physics in a fantasy game. ;)
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a) He speaks a completely different language so he doesn't bother trying to communicate with words.
b) He just doesn't like talking
c) He talks, but it's just not shown.
You forgot d: the developers didn't want more voice acting.
Actually, it is obvious that both Naija and Li talked somehow. Perhaps Naija formed a telepathic link?
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Makes sense to me. After all, Najia and all those other underwater races adapted to communication underwater, but even with the magic of breathing underwater (and is that something he can only do when Najia's around? I mean, when you leave him alone, he puts on his helmet) his vocal cords and hearing are still surface-adapted.
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Quick note: lungs are very specifically meant for air. You yeah, it is possible that Li couldn't speak normally.
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Does anyone have a screenshot of Li? (curiosity xP)
thk ;]
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Does anyone have a screenshot of Li? (curiosity xP)
thk ;]
here's one xD
http://www.bit-blot.com/forum/index.php?topic=481.0 (http://www.bit-blot.com/forum/index.php?topic=481.0)
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I love that Li's around too! In my spare time I'm always imagining up these cute little scenes in which Naija and Li are hanging out and doing couple stuff. Dude I am such a hopeless romantic that it's ridiculous :-*
But I gotta admit, I kinda agree with Glamador on some level. I wish the creators payed more attention to Li than they did. Y'know put a little story in in there, maybe added some character development.
And not only that, I noticed that there were a lot of sunken ships in the Aquarian environment. Maybe they could've put in some stuff for Li to use, maybe some upgrades for his weapons or even some human food that he could use to make recipes. Yeah, I kinda wished he could've helped out more in the general environment. I guess the creators were trying not to let Li overshadow little Naija.
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The last post on this topic was over a year old. Glamador isn't even around anymore, so in the future, make sure to watch where you post.
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Oh! Ummm sorry about that... I'm new here.. :-[
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Get the Templars, I smell necromancy! D:
Do agree a bit though, other people seemed to thin kthat Li was a bother and ruined the gameplay, I think however that they should've just given him a bigger roll, the game IS called Aquaria and not Naija.
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Do agree a bit though, other people seemed to thin kthat Li was a bother and ruined the gameplay
I thought something like that when I first found him, but he does get a bit more character once you get into Sunken City. Perhaps if he had a little more interaction, he would get a more positive response. I don't think Li was supposed to talk (and ever tries to) but maybe some more non-verbal communication would help matters, for example if he would provide hints as to what to do in a situation by swimming to a certain point.
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Wait, what do you mean more character?
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By more character I meant more personality and character development. Li doesn't get any of this until Sunken City, and that's just a small tidit compared to the other characters (Naija aside, both the Creator and Mithala have more or as much personality/character development as Li. Also, both can talk).
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I posted more about this in my introductory topic so I won't go into detail.
I would have liked to see Li more necessary from a gameplay perspective, but I grew very attached to him. I enjoy being drawn into the game so I enjoyed the little sweet moments where they hugged, and I often did that after a difficult boss. In the Sunken City, I was almost as angry as Naija and that Steam achievement didn't help matters. It's sad though to think that the true ending was so tragic, one wonders what happened to Li after Naija disappeared.
Either way, I would not like to see more dialogue, the game's strength was in its voice-overs, but the instances of actual dialogue were quite lacking due to the limited animation. Li's character would be better developed by Naija talking about him the way she did in Sunken City.
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Li is the Gordon Freeman of Aquaria. Good with tech, and a stupendous badass (once he has the Dual Form/gravity gun). :) Imagine if Half-Life 2 was played from Alyx's perspective...
"Gordon, ten thousand zombies are waiting around the corner! What do we do?"
"..."
"[insert profound statement here]"
"..."
*wink* (HL2: Episode 2)
*looks at Alyx's ass*
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Oh I know Li wasn't lookin' at MY Naija's ass! I've made my views known before of course, but Li needed to be introduced in pieces I think. Show him getting attached to Naija over time and vice versa. His intent can be inferred from his actions. The way it happened was just too abrupt.
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I just had another thought
And hopefully, since people are actually coming here again, it's okay to reply here. ( Yeah, sorry about fishing this topic out after like, a year or so )
I'm not saying that this means that the two are meant to end up together in the end. Honestly, ( at this point that is )I prefer that they did but that's beside the point:
You remember the dual form thing at the end of the game? I could be wrong but that to me really doesn't sound like something that Naija can do with just anybody.
Even if it's not a romantic connection, they must have some kind of important link to be able to merge together into one whole being.
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Well we've seen the verse do some weird shit in this game. I don't think it's too terribly far fetched. However, if I may present a theory: Li is related to, in some way, the human form from which the *****SPOILERS OMG SPOILERS***** Creator was made. Conceptualizing that the Creator took pieces of himself to be put into all of his creations, that would mean Naija is in some way related to Li by blood. That does raise some interesting incestuous questions but considering the gap between the opening sequence and the Creator making Mia, I don't think Naija and Li would have retard babies or anything drastic of that sort.
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Sounds like a pretty far fetched theory. I don't think it would really make much of a difference if Eric had a brother who was Li's great-ancestor or something because Naija was created thousands (is that right? Hundreds sounds more likely. At least long enough to create the other civilizations and Aquaria itself) of years after Eric's "incident".
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I've always wondered this myself, how long has the civilisations been there.
Because the story of Mithalas seems like ages old. First making a civilisation, a kingdom, most likely current prince Drask or their parents were NOT the first ones to rule, seeing the creator told that he first tried to make many creatures to be his friend, then he made Mia and Mia made Naija. This alone taking quite a long time, over a millenia, unless he spawned everyone at their adult stage (except Naija of course), then it could've been just 50 years for all we know.
And then I'm not even talking about the sun temple and how much time that has most likely taken.
So, finally, IF Lucien, who is obviously Li and Naija's son WOULD go back to the floating castle it'd most likely be either dead or just as corrupted as the world was underwater. Or maybe even a thriving kingdom, who know? O:
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Well if it IS a thriving civilization by the time Lucien checks it out, I'd like to know who started rebuilding it. I mean, the place was pretty much demolished by those comets.
Where did Eric get all this power anyway. What was that spirit that gave him life?
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Eric got the power from the comets that hit the place in the first place. Seeing he didn't die on first impact, he was exposed to the crystals and presumably taken over by some ominous powerful spirit.
Perhaps someone else gained the same sort of spirit but was still on the floating island? Who knows!? Alec does! D:<
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He might, he might not. It could all be in conception
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Well I never said the blood relation wasn't heavily diluted. Obviously Mithala had to have time to begin, thrive, fall, and decay so it must have been at least a couple hundred, if not thousand, years. Anyway another theory could be that Li was exposed the red crystal comet material. Low levels of comet radiation might permeate the planet by that point, considering how many impacted.
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Funny. My biggest complaint about the game is Li.
The whole love thing feels forced or added on as an afterthought. It's as if they felt they needed a reason for the player to go and kill the last boss so they added a lover that could be conveniently kidnapped. Call me old-fashioned, but destroying several civilizations is enough of a crime to warrant death penalty already; You don't really need to make it personal.
Li appears, Naija somehow makes him merman, and then he's completely irrelevant to the game till the precise moment he gets captured(the fact that you need him to open doors to Sunken City is just an excuse for forcing the player to have him "in the inventory" after the Mom and Dad boss). One of the first things I did after getting him was to visit the crashed sub in The Veil. He didn't really care. He didn't care about rest of the game, either. He's just blindly following you around and only interaction with him is switching his combat mode on and off. Mechanics-wise, he's exactly like just another pet: minor boost to your combat capabilities.
In fact, that raises some rather disturbing questions. Just what did Naija do to Li? He always follows you or stays where you tell him to. He never speaks(it's true that humans can't speak well underwater, but there's fresh air in the very Li cave so he could simply climb out of the water). Doesn't the guy have any friends or family? Is he last human left alive, just like Naija? If not, I'd imagine him at least letting his mom know he met this mermaid and to not wait with the dinner. As mentioned above, he acts just like a pet, so the only logical conclusion is that Naija lobotomized him when making him merman. You don't know the power of the Dark Side The Verse, indeed.
Then there's the aesthetics. Li's animations are poor(at least compared to Naija's) and because he can't change forms he gets left behind all the time. And while it's easy to accept bosses and aquatic life ignoring your pet, it's much less believable that they would ignore something bigger than Naija attacking them.
So the bottom line is, I feel that the whole love thing hurts the game's back story more than it helps. It would be much simpler to make the recurring theme "civilization x destroyed by Creator", and after visiting all of them Naija realizes that's who is essentially responsible for her loneliness so she kicks his ass(which of course results in unexpected happy end we all know). Don't get me wrong, the game is fantastic, but the story is just hard to swallow, and that's something you need to do every time you play.
On a side note, I read on the Marian site that it will deal with finding love as well and roll my eyes. Dear developers, seriously, you can make a meaningful/"art" game without love themes...
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Okay, besides bumping this thread with just narrow minded negativity let's look at your post.
The dialog in the game about Li, especially in the first one with the creator shows that he's obviously feared and has a big role in the game. That the tainted boy, controlled by powers that effect only the waters envies or despises the one who lives on the land. Obviously not a late add-on.
Naija uses the verse so Li can breath underwater (focuses the small amount of air in the water to him, perhaps away from him, maybe both) , the 'excuse' of having him in your inventory is simply because you need him at the boss fight, or you could've left him at home. The crashed sub was I believe a latter addition and shows that he is STRANDED at that location, just looking around for the girl he once met there, convinced she actually lives while many others have may told otherwise.
He's staying with her because she's all he has left perhaps? Either casted out by his own society or it had troubles or whatever.
The creatures in Aquaria could perhaps not see Li as a threat, or perhaps instead as a deity, second it doesn't fit into the game to have him die so they didn't make him overly useful.
Bottom line, I think that the creators of this game purposely have given Li a lesser role in the story instead of making him an obnoxious addition.
And on the side note, love is part of life, if you want to walk in someone's footsteps love is part of it, get over it. This game isn't BASED around love.
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What Alpha said.
But I can tell you that you are not alone with your complaints. A lot of people don't like Li, mostly for the reasons you mentioned.
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there are a lot of different facets to "love" that don't involve simply "finding a partner"