Bit Blot Forum
Aquaria => Gameplay => Topic started by: Lim-Dul on December 19, 2007, 03:25:44 am
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I searched the forum and to my amazement there are very few suggestions how to improve the game (maybe people are too impressed with it =) apart from some technical issues...
Well - I have two - they are the major gameplay problems I have with the game and both have been mentioned by Eurogamer - their review does have a point...
1. More save points - every area should have AT LEAST one - not all do. It's not that the game is too difficult or something but you just can't leave it any time you want without major backtracking or losing all your progress... This is VERY annoying - more save points wouldn't hurt the gameplay in the least.
2. This has been suggested before but I 'd like to go into it further: better map. This may require some major patching but it should be worthwhile - before all the other reviews start to appear. =)
The areas should be labeled, there should probably be small dots in flower/leaf spots... Also, if you leave a given area you should still be able to see which parts of it you have explored and which you haven't (make it appear exactly like the active region, just darker) - otherwise you might not remember to come back with a new ability etc. - maybe "dead ends" requiring a special ability should also be marked. I think that you have modified the appearance of the explored parts of the map already in the new patches but it still doesn't work perfectly - I have white areas, grey areas, dark grey areas, really, really dark grey areas - as if the map output from different versions got mixed up. =)
The map is in my opinion THE most important part of any exploration game. I HATE pointless moving around and too much backtracking - even if I like the overall atmosphere of the game. This would also solve most of the "where should I go next" problems...
These two issues may be responsible for some of the "Aquaria has a forced atmosphere to it" comments I've read in a few places. It's as if you HAVE to concentrate on enjoying the surroundings because you have to wait for the next save point to pop up or backtrack without knowing if you have been somewhere or not.
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I definitely agree about the save points; luckily, this is something that can be easily fixed via mod.
As to the map, a lot of people have been asking for the ability to place map notes, which would accomplish virtually the same thing, but put the responsibility with the player. Personally I wouldn't want an icon for everything, as it'd make the map cluttered, so it'd be nice to be able to turn off some of the map icons if what you suggest happens.
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Yep, I had something like toggles for various objects on the map in mind - like in RTS or economic games... I agree, however, that the ability to place map notes would solve the problem in a neat way although the whole explored/unexplored issue would still need to be resolved.
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As far as I'm concerned, the game has only one major problem that should probably be fixed - Li. You shouldn't be able to get into the Sun Temple without him, and it should be bloody obvious that you're supposed to follow him. The fact that Naija had something to say when she broke through the Veil, but nothing to say when she originally saw that diver threw me enough that I didn't think to pursue him.
Even if I hadn't run into that Time Paradox thing, I'm pretty sure I still would have had the same problem with not having any attachment to him that other people are having.
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As far as I'm concerned, the game has only one major problem that should probably be fixed - Li. You shouldn't be able to get into the Sun Temple without him, and it should be bloody obvious that you're supposed to follow him. The fact that Naija had something to say when she broke through the Veil, but nothing to say when she originally saw that diver threw me enough that I didn't think to pursue him.
Even if I hadn't run into that Time Paradox thing, I'm pretty sure I still would have had the same problem with not having any attachment to him that other people are having.
lol, I tried to eat the diver with my beast form when I saw him for the first time and sort of eventually followed him to the cave.
Anyways, the save points aren't too much of an issue in smaller areas, but most of the time there is generally only one save point per map section (the part that shows as 'active' when you are in it). However even when there are more than one save points (like in huge areas such as the Veil and the Abyss), the distance is usually pretty large between points.
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Personally, I have a love/hate relationship with the lack of save points. For one, it makes the game more challenging, but if you die, it just makes it more frustrating. But also it really emphasizes that you EXPLORE. B/c not all of the save points are obvious. Still I managed to survive ok, since I beat the game and all. It's not an easy game by any means.
As to the map, I think map notes would be perfect. After playing Phantom Hourglass on the DS I can't imagine a map without notes anymore. I mean the system was just terrific!
As to Li, I think Li severely lacks personality in general. No speaking lines, very little interaction except the occasional shooting of weakass homing bolts, all around boring (character-wise). He just doesn't endear himself to me the way Naija does. He's certainly no Companion Cube. God how I miss that cube...
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I completely agree with the suggestions thus far. I'm guessing the devs didn't want to put too many save points to avoid having them be abused as recharge stations. I know having a save point do both things (save and recharge) is convenient in terms of design (since you can never save in a hopeless situation), but if the end result is that you place too few of them it kind of defeats the point.
However, the map is a big deal. Whether issues stem from engine limitations or whether it was a conscious design decision I don't know, but being limited to seeing only the room you're in really dampens the enjoyment level. Your suggestions, Lim, are all sound, though I really don't think the leaf marks are necessary. They are optional, after all, and you're just as likely to stumble onto them while navigating new areas as retreading old ones. User added notes or marks on the map would also be a sound addition, but probably not necessary. I just think a lot of frustration would be resolved if you could just navigate the different rooms in the map and see where you've been and where you haven't. This
SPOILERS follow, just in case.
I too missed Li the first time around, and for exactly the same reason, Terry. That's also a big mishap given how important he was to the game. Considering how chatty Naija was, she sure chooses odd times to keep quiet. It's something that could be fixed quite simply merely by having Naija mention how intrigued she is by him and how pressing it is that you catch up with him. I also think several boss battles could stand to be improved since they can be unnecessarily confusing the way they are now. The final Cathedral boss for example (the one you obtain beast form from): I think I spent an hour on him just avoiding his shots and shooting him in the face simply because the game was giving me (inaccurate) visual feedback that he was receiving damage when in fact he wasn't. Even after I became so frustrated that I decided to clown around and see what happened it took me perhaps thirty additional minutes to figure out I could bind the bloated frog things. The game had simply not trained me for the situation, turning what should have been an entertaining boss battle (because really, it was a pretty clever solution) into tedium.
I'd love to hear the Derek or Alec's take on some of this, particularly since the game has yet to reach its full audience. I'm guessing some of these issues stem from the limited focus testing an indie game can receive. Perhaps us early adopters can serve as expanded focus testers for the X360 and Wii versions? ;) While a worthwhile and memorable experience nonetheless, I think Aquaria could be raised a few notches with just a few tweaks here and there. Is the game final as it is, or might we see improvements to the experience beyond bug fixes just yet?
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Man a dual-analog 360 or Wii version would totally pwn. And I'm betting if this game got a mainstream release then Alec/Derek could make oodles of cash because I'm certain it would get great reviews. As for being focus testers, I'm game. I've explored more of this game in my complete and utter confusion than was probably necessary (My save at the final crystal counted me at exactly 18 hours). But I think this game is totally worth a 50 dollar retail release. Especially with mod capabilities. But Bit Blot isn't exactly a major dev...It takes alot of work for a retail release.
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I hate Li completely. I left him back home for the majority of the game, because I don't like him. He ruins the atmosphere, and the feeling of loneliness present in the game before Li. Besides, he shoots stuff that would otherwise leave me alone, but doesn't have the decency to take damage for me.
Does it make me a horrible person that I'd rather have that atmosphere than Naija have a companion?
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I don't care if you have a companion (though I agree it kind of ruins the atmosphere) as long as he's a GOOD companion. Li looks wierd and has ZERO personality.
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I hate Li completely. I left him back home for the majority of the game, because I don't like him. He ruins the atmosphere, and the feeling of loneliness present in the game before Li. Besides, he shoots stuff that would otherwise leave me alone, but doesn't have the decency to take damage for me.
Does it make me a horrible person that I'd rather have that atmosphere than Naija have a companion?
Li... what can i say. I feel strange having a man hug me. (me being a MAN and all). Nothing but man love in this story :-[
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Nothing but man love in this story
Dude, Naija is a chick... lol 8)
I think having more save points would ruin the game since they are refil stations too. I found nothing wrong with the numbers, there is one in almost every map, I don't need to back track severly to get to one. I guess it could be forced atmosphere to some, but I was too busy enjoying the atmosphere to notice ::) .
And Li...I found him straight away. Something I can't kill intrigues me I guess...
That and the fact that I thought it was pretty obvious that he wanted me to follow him (Though it turns out I was chasing him... lol).
My only issue with Li was that he was like one of my pets, but he couldn't follow me anywhere...He kinda didn't do much to help me except act like a pet and increase my firepower a little. If he had some significance to the story before the sunken city then I'd be happy. He doesn't have any significance except when you first meet him and the sunken city...and the body. The latter two in which he just keeps getting eaten/taken away and I have to go save him -_- . (note: I don't think I've been in the 'icy area' that I see people talking about, despite the fact that I beat the game. If I missed some story there that involved Li ignore me ;) )
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I'm not overly fussed about the save points (there's save points close to all the major bosses that's the main thing that counts - maybe the kelp forest needed one more but apart from that it was fine) but I definitely agree that you should have t he ability to make map notes. I think the map would be too cluttered if everything was put on it but this game is perfect for map notes, many a time I had to struggle to remember exactly where I previously saw a blocked off path.
As for Li, I didn't actually pick him up to right before when I needed him. This was through sheer accident, I just completely ignored him the first time I saw him (which is rather odd considering how otherwise thorough I was at exploring the game!) and so I played the game to the point where I actually couldn't go any further with out him and found him on my second wander through the game world.
Oh and you guys do realise you can turn off Li's combat mode so he doesn't shoot at stuff don't you? You just have to sings his song and he'll put his blaster back in his . . . well . . . wherever he keeps it.
I'm in two minds about Li. I'm kind of glad Naija wasn't alone but he's such a damsel in distress.
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Agreed. Li seems to do nothing throughout the whole story but
a) Occasionally hug you (awww...)
b) Shoot things
c) Get captured
He says nothing, he does nothing, his history isn't explained. He simply *is*. While I'm certainly not one to dismiss "Love at First Sight", I thought it was a bit much of that particular sub-plot making it believable (Much like Neo and Trinity's "Relationship", which pretty much was just "Hi, shall we be in love?" "k". It's a shame because you could've made him such a more prominant character (Starting with giving him a proper introduction rather than one that 9/10 people seem to miss, me included :p Didn't spot him the first time, went in and out the cave, eventually found 'im)
It would also give the endings, particularly Ending #2 a lot more meaning
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He says nothing, he does nothing, his history isn't explained.
Heh, once you beat the final boss there is sure one thing he "does" :D.
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without having read spoilers I totally would have ignored/missed Li. I also found him annoying/intrusive for the general "feel" of the game. It just felt weird/awkward to have a sudden love story thing happen without proper explanations/reasons.
I wonder if most people would feel the same way if you played a male character that found a female companion? :P Oh well, i would have preferred if you had stayed alone rather than have a zero personality guy being your random love interest.
About bosses, I had to read up spoilers for almost every puzzle involving boss to keep me from being frustrated. I guess I'm more for the pattern dodgy bosses with obvious weak-spots and timing based vulnerability
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Wow - I actually just meant from a gameplay flow perspective. I didn't realise so many people outright disliked him.
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being limited to seeing only the room you're in really dampens the enjoyment level.
I'd posted this in another thread, but as far as the map goes, from the map screen:
1. Hold the right mouse key down to drag the map around a view areas you've been to, and
2. using the wheel on the mouse allows you to zoom in and out to see more or less of the map.
I discovered this accidently when I was shooting at something on the lower right corner of my screen and accidently activated the map. Next thing you know it was moving the map around! Yay me!
The map save points seem to appear either when you have explored for a long time and need to save about an hour's worth of gameplay (in which case they appear in a random spot) ---OR--- they appear right before a large boss (which allows you to "fuel up" on health points and when you fail to beat the boss on the first try, it's not such a long way back.)
Personally, I would like the ability to save the game without the use of a save point. Here's why: I have a laptop and I play the computer in bed wrapped in a down comforter--it gets cold in the winter here. It gets late and I fall asleep staring at the screen. When I'm getting that tired, I can't pay attention to the kelp monsters and the silly little "hamburger" monsters that lunge at me...Those are the times I just want to exit the game and be back where I was the next time I pick it up.
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SPOILERS follow.
I think criticisms of Li as a character are valid (although since I'd discovered the Sun Temple memory long before I found Li I understood the connection and the encounter didn't seem quite so random) but as a gameplay element he is necessary and thus should be unmissable. I think it's clear some people just naturally decided to follow him, but given that he provides zero prompting to do so it's hardly surprising many of us missed him. I think since we can presume one thing he was looking for was Naija herself, maybe he could provide the prompting for you to follow him in his animation, maybe having Naija sigh as she does when she's impressed by something when she first spots him. That would give him a bit more character as well, I think. All I know is that as it is right now, his significance is not really obvious at all when you first spot him, and that leads to needless frustration.
being limited to seeing only the room you're in really dampens the enjoyment level.
I'd posted this in another thread, but as far as the map goes, from the map screen:
I actually figured out those things about the map pretty early on in the game. I think what we're referring to is the fact that you can only see an outline of the rooms you're not in and not the details of what sections of those rooms were actually accessible to you or not. The few icons you can see don't save you from aimless wandering.
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I actually figured out those things about the map pretty early on in the game. I think what we're referring to is the fact that you can only see an outline of the rooms you're not in and not the details of what sections of those rooms were actually accessible to you or not. The few icons you can see don't save you from aimless wandering.
Precisely what I meant.
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The initial Li 'encounter' could probably be helped by just making the camera lock onto him the moment you see him 'outside', and script him to swim to his cave without having to chase him. Leave the camera locked onto him until he enters his cave, and it should be obvious to most players to go in after him.
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The initial Li 'encounter' could probably be helped by just making the camera lock onto him the moment you see him 'outside', and script him to swim to his cave without having to chase him. Leave the camera locked onto him until he enters his cave, and it should be obvious to most players to go in after him.
That would be an elegant solution, I think, and presumably one that could be applied fairly simply.
The map could be improved simply by having a particular area be highlighted as if you were there when clicked on. That would go a long way towards alleviating moments of tedium and could also presumably be added more simply than a notes feature or additional icons.
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The map could be improved simply by having a particular area be highlighted as if you were there when clicked on.
Why not implement 4 shades of grey instead - don't tell me that it's too difficult to code. =)
2 shades (white and grey) for the active region as usual and a darker color scheme with two shades of grey for inactive regions...
I still think that implementing a "map-scribble" feature would be interesting. I hear the Zelda comparisons coming. :-D
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more than 4 shades - more like 6 or 8 because map sections can overlap