Bit Blot Forum
Aquaria => Gameplay => Topic started by: broknecho on December 16, 2007, 09:24:31 pm
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After taking my time for my first run through Aquaria (19 hours 49 minutes), I decided to do a speed run since I had a pretty good idea of where to go.
Stats:
Life containers: 4/5
Treasures: 10
Forms: all
Final Save point time: 4:09
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21900250@N03/2115246161/
I am sure there is a bunch of time I could take off not getting 2 of the 4 life capsules that I did get but some of the bosses are still tricky....gotta work on that :)
Please Note: YOU HAVE TO TAKE YOUR TIME WITH THIS GAME THE FIRST TIME THROUGH TO CAPTURE ALL THE DETAILS ALEC AND DEREK HAVE PUT INTO IT.
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I was wondering how long it'd be before this topic sprung up. I myself am far from attempting it, as I'm still pretty awful at using walls for speed. Not to mention wanting to complete the game, (and as near 100% as possible) at least once before considering.
Have to say though that I'm impressed with the time, would love to see some vids or something eventually.
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Yeah. I love speed runs. I agree with the TC that you should always take your time to enjoy a game slowly and thoughtfully the first time, but it's great fun to see how fast you can do it afterward!
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I will definitely be posting some videos for sure.
I was also thinking of doing some video strategies for the bosses.....but I don't want to spoil any of the challenges.
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Man, I love speed runs! Great job on 4:09... that might be faster than I could even do it! ;)
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**** SPOILERS ****
3:51, but I had to backtrack a lot.
I went: Bind -> Energy -> Nautilus(wasteful) -> Beast -> Li -> Sun -> Nature -> Spirit -> Fish(wasteful, should have got before Spirit) -> Whale(wasteful) -> King Jelly(probably worth the 5 minute battle) -> Endgame.
I only bothered getting 2/5 Verse Eggs (Whale:Orange and Kelp:Purple) and two treasures (Tooth, Jellysuit)
What I could have done better: After getting beast form I should have grabbed the Turtle in Open Waters and come back from the Veil using the turtle. I should have gone for the Fish form before spirit form. I should have gone after the other eggs instead of the ones that were off-course, but I forgot where the other three are.
It seems like it could be done easily in less than 3 hours if you plan ahead.
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We had a guy (Jeb) in the IRC-Channel yesterday who had a savegame at 1:45 after defeating the Steel-Golem. He hasn't finished this run yet, but I guess he will make it in under 2:30 hours...
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Well, looking at what you've done, I'd say there's alot that you don't even NEED to get. You do need Nature form, but is Fish form necessary? It's well out of your way but I suppose if you use it for speed...But I use wall-boosting for speed most of the time and I think that's faster than the fishy. Also why do you bother with spirit form? ALSO, the first health egg is in the very first area where you learn the bind song. Under a rock if I recall. The whale is completely uncessesary unless you're going for a "best ending" run. You don't need nautilus at all either. Also I agree that the jelly costume is very important. Free health means less time needed backtracking for crystals and food. But remember, Jelly's usefullness is far diminished if you get fewer health eggs.
Now these are just suggestions, I don't think I could possibly do this game in that short a time. I'm just not a speedrun kinda guy. My friend could tho, he's active on Speed Demos Archive.
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Here's where I am in my newest run (I will be recording the one after this):
1:12
3/5 Life Eggs
Energy Form->Fish Form-> Nature Form-> Beast Form-> Li.
I'm going to run the rest without getting Spirit Form which won't let me get the 4th egg that I got in my last run. So it's off to Sunken temple now.
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I mean off to Sun Temple and then Sunken City :)
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i'll try 8) wait spirit form and fish form are optional right?
energy > beast > nature > li cave
0:53
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boiler room 1:17 ;D
i'm getting my ass handed to me by the golem :'(
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done 8)
(http://i14.tinypic.com/8787da9.png)
Life containers: 0/5
Treasures: 0
Forms: no fish, no spirit
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HOW ON EARTH DID YOU PROGRESS WITHOUT HEALTH EGGS? Seriously, some of those bosses HURT LIKE THE DEVIL WEARING URCHIN ARMOR.
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There are Eternal Daughter runs from guys who had the goal to beat the game without heart containers and without scrolls (adds fighting force). And they managed it... :o
on topic: 1:44 seems to be pretty damn good, congrats!
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This thread is awesome. That's definitely good stuff doing it without any health eggs.
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HOW ON EARTH DID YOU PROGRESS WITHOUT HEALTH EGGS? Seriously, some of those bosses HURT LIKE THE DEVIL WEARING URCHIN ARMOR.
not really. i think it takes at least 4 attacks from any boss to kill you 8)
energy temple: easy
cathedral: easy
kelp forest: easy
sun temple: no strategy involved. keep shooting and pray you're nowhere near him/spikes once he begins his suction attack
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9216792170826959080&hl=en
sunken city: keep your distance to avoid wraith's attacks. the golem is easy to avoid
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2745240974594252563&hl=en
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Oh HO...switching to beast form...I kept trying to dodge UNDER the golem, it worked about half the time. I didn't even realize you could dodge above him, he seems to cover the whole height of the room. Plus every time I tried it didn't work, I guess the trick is beast form.
As for the temple wyrm, that was before I had discovered the usefullness of keyboard form shortcuts. Strategies kept saying to switch to beast form but I had a bitch of a time realizing he was sucking water in time for me to revert, sing, and trasform again (and vice versa after wards). Even so he's just freaking hard to dodge. Gotta know exactly how to handle him I guess. Good job.
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Well, I made my speed run through, an exact of 2 hours, with every form and without using anything else.
No transport turtles
No treasures
No health eggs
Not even cooking (even though I can't prove that)
Yes, All forms.
Yes, I've died several times.
Yes, I could've shaved off 10 minutes if I didn't save that much.
Hunting for save points sometimes is annoying, I just defeated the Sun Worm and I accidentally grabbed the golden star treasure, without saving first. So I had to kill that bastard again, in the meanwhile I died about 4 to 5 times. =p
Anyway, I uploaded my savegame file, Here it is. (http://willhostforfood.com/users/Alphasoldier/Aquaria%20Speedrun%202H.rar) It's on save file 22, I THINK you can rename it if that spot is already filled. And the savegame was made at version 1.0.3, dunno if that's relevant.
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Not bad! Now do an Eternal Daughter run without taking health containers or power scrolls. ;)
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Am I going to get scolded at if I say I never even played that game? >.>
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I tried it, and it was indescribably hard. I mean, people think the Sun Temple worm is tough? God I couldn't even get past the first enemy without dying in ED. Got to this guy riding a spider and I still can't beat him.
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Bumping this thread because some really should record a full speedrun. It could probably get accepted to sites like SDA, I imagine, which would bring publicity to the game.
To outline the basics, a game like Aquaria could support several different types of speedruns:
-- Fastest completion with any ending
-- Fastest completion with best ending
-- Low % runs
-- 100% runs
afaik the first and the third would actually be the same, since there are no major sequence breaks in the game (hmm.. there should be!) and if there were they probably wouldn't add to the final time. The second would just be the first with a few extra detours that would require the acquisition of Spirit form (not sure about Fish form), and would probably not be as interesting as the first or fourth runs, which for all intents and purposes should be what people focus on.
A good any-% run would probably entail:
-- No extras such as various armors (jelly armor..) or pets or health upgrades. Detours for Spicy / Volcano rolls might be acceptable, since they speed up boss fights.
-- Becoming really really good at bouncing off the walls to travel. It looks silly but it's a huge time-saver.
-- IDEALLY one would be able to navigate the Abyss without Sun form (right?) This isn't reasonable to expect, but it would save a lot of time.
-- I think people have already got the right idea in terms of route: After energy form, go Beast -> Sun -> Nature. Really, the only real choice in route planning is when to go for Nature form, and it seems most logical to do it after you get the turtle by Mithalas. Beast -> Nature -> Sun wouldn't be much worse, though, and if I understand correctly that it's possible to climb up the side of the Sun Temple using Nature Form, it might actually save some time.
Anyways, yea, I'd love to see a real run done according to SDA rules, there's a slight possibility that I might try one myself. But if people are getting to the last boss in just over an hour, that's pretty awesome and deserves a full recording.
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Well maybe someone should make a thread on the SDA forums about it. They always offer encouragement and assistance. Of course the trick is to first get some of them playing the game. Then you can get a good rousing conversation going.
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Yea, I might go ahead and do that later.. it just kinda seems odd to post a thread about a run that I'd rather see someone else do.
In any case, looking things over, going Beast -> Nature -> Sun wouldn't take any more time than Beast -> Sun -> Nature, barring the possibility that one of them would take an extra turtle trip (I'm not sure which, though.) I'm not sure if using Nature form to climb the left side of the Sun temple would save any time, maybe there's someone way better than me at fast briarhopping though. I'd like for it to be possible just to make the run more interesting, though. In any case, a segmented route would probably go something like:
1: Start to song cave to saving before the "boss" that gives you Energy form
2: Energy temple up to the save before the boss
3: Leave energy temple, go through open waters and Mithalas to the save point outside the cathedral
4: Mithalas cathedral to the savepoint at the beginning of the area with all the currents
5: Leave Mithalas (get beast form), pick up the ancient turtle near it, head to the savepoint before the Kelp Forest boss, getting the Kelp Forest turtle along the way.
6: Get Nature form, take the bulb to the turtle, then the turtle back to outside Mithalas, head up to the Veil, get Li and save at the first Sun Temple crystal
7: Either climb the left side of the Sun Temple to the boss or do it normally (possibly saving before the boss if doing normally, if so this would make an 8th segment, but let's assume we don't..), get Sun Form, leave through the exit in the boss' room, take the nearby turtle back to outside Mithalas, save somewhere on the way to the Abyss.
8: I'm not sure which route is fastest through the Abyss to the Sunken City, but suffice to say one should figure it out and do it, go through the Sunken City, save before the Golem Boss.
9+: Save as few times as possible throughout The Body (the crystal is kinda out of the way), but realistically it'd be hard not to have to do it a couple times. Definitely save before the final gauntlet, after getting Li back.
10: From getting Li back to the save before the final boss.
11: Final boss.
Something like that sounds about right.
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I don't really record stuff, but I know my speedrun without getting anything, besides all forms, not even using turtles was quite a good run if I may say so myself.
But I'd love to try this out sometime, but after the patch that is. =p
And knowing where to go in Abyss without sunform is how well you know it impossible, it's only pure luck to guide yourself through there without getting swallowed/spiked/attacked. Also that you can barely measure your speed. However using Sun mode a bit could help, but even my gamking skills don't go that far, I screwed up with the abyss many many times.
Then I wonder, what stops you from doing so?
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Well, I think pretty much any time that would get the ball rolling would be nice, so that people would see it and then propose improvements.. that's generally how these things progress, I believe.
Anyways, I did make a thread on SDA:
http://speeddemosarchive.com/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=pcgames;action=display;num=1206320908
I'm not sure it'll get much of a reply, but it doesn't hurt to try.
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Well for a game as large and long as Aquaria...it will require intense planning and extensive use of both glitches and wall-boosting...perhaps using Briar jumps to defeat the Sun Temple Worm early? Anyway that's the kind of discussion that needs discussing.
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I think an any-% run would be relatively straightforward, which is why I took the time to propose a route for it. A 100% run might require more planning, but it still shouldn't be too hard... for better or worse, Aquaria doesn't have many advanced techniques that could be used for sequence breaking. While Metroid speedrunning became famous because things like bomb jumping and wall jumping could be used to completely change the game's flow, I don't think there's anything analogous in Aquaria, save for briarhopping, which is only useful in a few places and might not even save any time in an actual run. But it is, of course, possible that there's some trick or shortcut I'm not aware of, in which case this thread is as good a place to highlight it as any.
Outright glitches are, unfortunately, a much more difficult thing to address. In the SDA thread someone pointed to a guy who had run Eternal Daughter, and who actually had an Aquaria video on his YT account where he somehow used bound rocks to push himself through walls and thus across entire areas. That kind of glitching would be detrimental to the enjoyability of a speedrun imo, but it's always subjective.. in any case, it would clearly violate SDA rules, whose philosophy I agree with: "If it obviously looks like a glitch to an uninformed player, it's out." But I don't really have the right to dictate terms like that, I suppose. But this is the line that allowed bugs like mockballing (moving really fast in morph ball form) to be part of the standard Metroid repertoire, since it didn't look like at obvious error.
On further consideration, I found myself musing that if I were one of the game's designers (*cough*) or maybe just had a lot of money lying around, it might be a good investment to put up a modest bounty (usually around $50 or so) for a speedrun that gets hosted on SDA, which would probably give the game exposure to thousands of people. This would at least make for an interesting precedent, as I don't think a developer has ever offered a bounty on their own game to a 3rd-party site.
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Hmm, I don't know about the bounty, it seems far-fetched and as far as I know Alec, he usually doesn't care that much for these things, but then I'd be speaking for him, while I shouldn't.
Anyway, nonetheless, I'd love to record a speed run, If you could recommend a screen recording thing, propably fraps or something, I'd give it a shot.
And yes the rock warp thing was also posted on here. =p
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I too thought a bounty might be warranted...unofortunately I don't have the money at the moment or I would frankly, put it up myself.
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I'm aware that it might be a bit of a more cheap and not as interesting alternative, but a TAS of Aquaria may be sure to follow.
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I think TAS only work for games that can be used on emulators that have savestates.
Anyways, the only recording program I'm familiar with is FRAPS, though there may be others that are more-preferred within the speedrunning community.. though FRAPS should get the job done.
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I'm certain there are better. Fraps' files are HUGE whenever I make vids that are only like, 5 minutes long. To run Aquaria it would take an hour or so (unless sum1 finds a massive sequence break) and I suspect the filesize would be in the hundreds of gigabytes using Fraps.
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Camtasia is a very good proggy for it.
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Gonna bump this now, there were some interesting posts in the SDA thread. Although no one actually said they're planning a run, user groobo posted some neat sequence breaks, notably in order to get to the veil early (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1I_0SuhXUc) and bypass the tentacle blocking the body (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6F8e0nOFySY), which allows you to skip Beast form and Li / Sunken City entirely, apparently. The Veil trick strikes me as particularly clever, the Body shortcut is more like "wow that's so obvious that I guess no one tried it". In any case sequence breaking is half of what makes these things fun.
groobo goes on to outline the optimal route as energy -> nature -> sun -> dual, which is probably correct. Sun and Nature are probably interchangeable unless there's a viable briarhopping shortcut somewhere.
[Edit]
Oh, and I might have found a shortcut of my own! I was playing around and discovered that it is possible to get into the Sun Temple from the east side. What you have to do is jump up to the area where the Roc is. Normally jumping off to the left wouldn't give you enough momentum to reach the ledge where the Sun Temple is, but if you use Nature form and plant a briar under your feet, it'll shoot you with a much higher initial velocity than you'd normally have, and if you angle it correctly you can reach the ledge above the Sun Temple's east side... from here it should be a simple matter of briarhopping up the glass tube leading to the memory, and then either dropping down into the temple or possibly continuing left into the boss chamber shortcut.
Only downside is that it probably requires beastform to get up to the roc's area to begin with, and it doesn't save enough time to justify going to Mithrala if that can be skipped entirely. Maybe you could use a trick similar to the one used to bypass the current leading into the Veil, but I kinda doubt it.
At the least, the briar superjump could probably be used in order to climb up the left side of the sun temple quickly, although launching yourself at the right angle seems pretty difficult.
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Actually, ALOT of people did the body thing. And it broke the game. So Alec patched it. That glitch is no longer possible to my knowledge.
Also, I did that very trick to get to the Sun Temple worm early. And no you do not need Beast form to get to the Ruk as far as I know. I posted about that in the briar rocketing discussion I think...the only problem is I SUCK at the sun temple worm. You can get TO him easy (well...if you're good at briar wall-climbing) but he's still as much of a bitch to fight...
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Okay... just as well with the body thing, since it seemed kinda dumb and broke the game's plot. The Veil trick is creative enough though that I hope it isn't patched, it actually seems fairly difficult to reproduce.
And I guess I missed the discussions on briar rocketing, was probably done before I played the game. I remember you mentioning that you managed to climb up the sun temple, I figured it was done on the west side by climbing the wall, and not the east. How do you get up to the Roc Ruk without Beast form, though? There's a strong current blocking the normal passage that leads up to the Ruk, and I couldn't think of any other way to bypass it.
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Oh, you did mention briar "rocketing", my bad. Well, if it's possible to do it without beast form, that would be another huge timesaver. However, if you can't skip the Sunken City, it seems like you'd have to get Beast Form anyways to beat the Golem Boss (right?), which kinda sucks.
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This is true...they really make sure you need all the forms at some point. Also for some reason I thought that it was only semi-strong current to get to the ruk, which doesn't require beast form, but is made easier by it.
[EDIT]
It seems I was mistaken. You do need beast form. But as you said, you need beast form for the Golem. I could not find any way up to the Ruk's nest without using beast form...but since it's needed that's still a viable trick (but it took me like...20 minutes to do it) that requires prodigious briar-hopping skillz.
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Well, I think it's probably safe to say that groobo will be doing a run on the game sometime.
Unfortunately (imo), it will make profligate use of the food duping exploit, the Sunken City skip, etc.
Which I suppose is better than nothing, but it doesn't show the game at its finest. Oh well. Maybe they'll allow a separate run on a patched version without those tricks.
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I think it should be a rule that all games be run on the patched version. Sure glitches are speedier, but if they've fixed them at the time the run is done...it shouldn't be allowed.