Bit Blot Forum
Aquaria => General => Topic started by: kawsper on December 10, 2007, 10:23:43 pm
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Gah.. It was doomed to happen, but Aquaria is on the P2P networks and it hit the networks about 7 hours ago. I am not posting the name of the release.
Its just like Defcon from introversion, pirates cant stay away from indie-games. And it makes me sad, these games have so much atmosphere and love, that they're worth the money. People should pay for quality :) Chris from introversion have said that there were around 10x their sales of the games being used by pirates. I hope that enough of the true fans will be supporting Bit-Blot.
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Heh, I was really only counting the minutes till the release. It isn't where I was expecting it to be, but oh well.
One of the games I'll be neither downloading, nor seeding.
Go Indie gaming. You guys deserve the money.
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I hope that enough of the true fans will be supporting Bit-Blot.
I'll buy 5 other copies of the game then... :D (+ the soundtrack, if they start releasing it :P )
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Heh, after the P2P release i have started an aggressive advertising campaign among my friends, and it is working ;)
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Bound to happen eventually. Thanks, guys, for your support! All we want to do is keep making games. ^-^
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At least it wasn't out there before it got released, like some others... But there would be no stopping it regardless of what measures were taken. The people who download there are probably not among the ones who would buy the game in the first place. Those who enjoy the game enough to buy it will do so though. I often try a pirated version first and then buy the game when I see it is any good. Not necessary in this case as the fantastic demo is more than enough to convince me.
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It is sad. As Alec's friend irl, I can attest that he has dedicated his life to Aquaria for the past 2 years. He only does it because he loves it. It's a shame people don't consider how much time and work went into the game. If indie developers weren't passionate about what they're doing, they wouldn't be dealing with unstable finances and long work hours. They would just go work for EA. Support the people behind the game so they can live another day to bring you more.
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I guess all we can do is hope that those who really enjoy the game have the decency to pay for it in the end. If I see it anywhere on Torrent sites I'll definitely be posting to encourage people to buy it.
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Someone that's registered where it is hosted should say it's a virus file in the comment. At least it'll stop some people from stealing the game.
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Meh, that would work for a bit but it would quickly be confirmed as virus-free.
I've posted messages on several torrent sites...perhaps people will listen to their conscience when it comes to downloading this game. Like I said before, I hope that if they appreciate the work of art that this game is they'll come back and buy the game after downloading it.
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Bound to happen eventually. Thanks, guys, for your support! All we want to do is keep making games. ^-^
Believe us, that's all we want you to do too. ;)
I plan to buy at least a couple more copies as Christmas presents as soon as I can spare the finances.
Also, good on ya', Crizzle. Messages like that are good, and often you'll see others chime in that they too believe the games should be supported. I've actually been surprised at the number of people who regularly pirate stuff but actually do buy it if they feel it's truly worth the money. Hopefully the number of people so impressed by the game that they want to buy it will counteract, at least to a degree, the number of people who refuse to pay for the benefit of enjoying someone else's hard work.
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You can't stop it - there's no point in trying, since it wastes effort you can devote to more worthwhile things.
The best you can do is hope that the people who play it will eventually pay for it. Keep in mind that the majority of people who pirate it _never_ intended to buy it (or can't afford it, $30 is a ton of money to some), so you aren't really 'losing' many (if any) sales.
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Of course you can't stop it and I don't think Alec and Derek will personally go out and spend time trying to stop people but I think as part of the community we should at least try to encourage people to buy it. It doesn't take that much effort after all. Like I said, I posted a couple messages around on torrent sites and that took me all of FIVE WHOLE minutes haha.
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There is just one "minor" problem with the file in the p2p. They say in the comments that it doesn't have a serial/keygen/crack in it. ^-^
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There is just one "minor" problem with the file in the p2p. They say in the comments that it doesn't have a serial/keygen/crack in it. ^-^
Hah, then technically it isn't even a bad thing, is it? I mean, if you lost your setup file you can always get it through P2P again. Provided you bought the key.
I mean, OK, in about one week we will have a keygen/crack for this thing, but up till then, it is technically good :p
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With X3 and X2, Egosoft did something rather unique...
They would release updates and patches, but you could only download it if you registered your copy with your forum account.
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Oh, c'mon people. Let's not overdramatize the issue. I regularly use P2P to download "all kinds of stuff" and I always buy everything that proves to be worthwhile. OK - in Aquaria's case I bought the game on day 1 without even having played the demo but that's another story.
OK - there may not bee too many "honest pirates" out there but like someone said before the people who download games instead of buying them wouldn't have bought them in the first place. However, they contribute to the buzz surrounding the game so they can be considered as "free advertising" and nothing spreads the word better than viral marketing. =)
I remember a lecture by some serious economist who claimed that e.g. the music industry doesn't lose money because of illegal downloads but rather makes quite a bit of profit off it.
Of course this would be a problem if MOST people were software pirates but the fact of the matter is that most people are honest buyers...
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Well, don't know where to start, but I guess the beginning would be good.
Since Christmas was coming I had to go look for gifts so I thought, Let's do some searching for some nice games and things that i could buy or request for christmas, it's how we, my family and I, do that.
I opened up Gamespot and IGN and the first thing that showed up at the Gamespot PC Section was this, Aquaria, the demo.
At first sight I was already astonished, even from the first small picture. Not having seen these kind of graphics in a long time for a actual game. As so I decided for the first time in a long time I immediatly downloaded the demo, while I normally never download demos because i simply hate them (I never like incomplete games, which are usually demos). I played the game and enjoyed it ALOT, the artwork is awesome and the story so far I have seen it is intriguing.
Me being me, having alot of money wasted on alot of games that were NOT worth their money I started trying to search it on the p2p, I found it, downloaded it and found out it needs a key that was nowhere to be found.
At this time I actually wondered why I did this while I knew that the game actually is worth it's money, even the demo would be worth money.
As so I came here. First, to actually apologize for trying to torrent this game. Second, being willing to help to fight against p2p at least for this game. Third, that I will buy this game, when i figure out how.
Once again many compliments on this game.
Greetz, Alphasoldier
P.S. Can't wait 'till i can get to start modding. ^-^
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Glad you decided that buying the game was the right thing to do. If you don't already know, you can buy the game on the Aquaria website:
http://www.bit-blot.com/aquaria/buy.html
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Heh, I already found it, but thanks anyway. Ordered it and hope to play the game tomorrow after a good rest!
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Doh... just a few days and it looks like they made a crack,
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Doh... just a few days and it looks like they made a crack,
I'll try to act surprised ;D
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Let's look at it this way.
Big company like Sorny or EAikes spends 15 million dollars to make something that hooks into your registry, dials home, disables your burners ability to burn, bogs down Windows, installs 3 services, 'rootkits' five other executables, phones elderly people maliciously and kills your dog: all in the interest of stopping you from pirating the game.
History has shown this to work for maybe 3 days after release(3 days before release if the release itself was 0-day), which is why DRM models are flawed in the first place.
Small indy group, two people and a voice actress. No 15 million dollar budget. Not likely to stop the cracking.
So really, all you can really do is factor it as inevitable, write it off(though not necessarily like it) and hope more people wish to buy it for the peace-of-mind/support they'll get from buying it and hope those who didn't pirate it keep buying it.
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Yeah I think everyone knew it was inevitable I mean, everything goes up on torrent sites these days. It's just unfortunate to see when it's something made by an indie developer, especially when the game is so good. :(
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Well, if we are lucky the game is so good that they will actually feel bad about pirating it and buy it anyway xD
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Well, if we are lucky the game is so good that they will actually feel bad about pirating it and buy it anyway xD
Hah, yea, but that's not a very likely scenario ;)
Anyway. For me personally the biggest reason to download music and video's (I never download software; and downloading music and video for personal use is actually legal where I come from) is because it is so much easier than having to fill in a form, transfer the money, and hope that it all works out and that you get the game soon.
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Aquaria is easily worth the 30 dollar admission price. ;)
You won't see something like this from the game giants after all. =\ 'Course they'd just make it 3d and inject it full of 'teh suck'.
But I digress, I'm happy t'show my support for a game of this quality.
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I'm still posting a sort of "disclaimer" on torrent sites with the new cracked version. As long as any downloaders are informed that it's an independant game and are directed to the official site, there is a chance that they'll have the good conscience to buy the game. :)
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I'm still posting a sort of "disclaimer" on torrent sites with the new cracked version. As long as any downloaders are informed that it's an independant game and are directed to the official site, there is a chance that they'll have the good conscience to buy the game. :)
Depending on the site it's on, they'll either laugh at you or ignore you :/
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Yesterday, I was at a friend's place with my laptop. So I show him Aquaria and being an old-school guy that dates all the way back to the C64 (and before), he is mighty impressed. Now, he doesn't play many games himself, but he has got two sons. The oldest sees the game in action and goes "Hey, I want that" and the father goes "sure, dig out 30 bucks and you can have it". I let the boy play the game for a while and he ended up wishing it for christmas. So with a bit of luck, you might just have another customer soon :-)
Tell the story behind the project, show people the website and let them play the game. It all helps.
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<.< I just registered to post that you shouldn't consider the game hitting torrent a bad thing by any means. Just looking at the stats, the torrent of the game is popular and many would be completely unaware of an indie game like this. The fact that it's gotten a response on p2p means that people have become interested and want to give it a shot, which is great. Tis how I first found out about it myself, and just checked for more info. Likely buying too.
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Likely buying too.
Key word "Likely".
Oh well, it was worth a shot.
submits resume to EA
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Likely buying too.
submits resume to EA
Noooooo! Not that disgusting corporate beast! There is still hope...although I don't know what the sales stats are like at the moment I'm still confident that the game can do well with the right kind of advertising/exposure, etc. :)
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Likely buying too.
Key word "Likely".
Oh well, it was worth a shot.
submits resume to EA
Didn't they already offer you a job?
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Well, it'd be easy for anyone to get a job at EA.
Seriously.
Hence the joke. :P
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Hah, on Blackcats, most people already bought or are going to buy it xD
Sadly, the pre-cracked version was already snatched about 200 times, but on the other hand also got over a 1000 views. I hope the other 800 actually bought the game ;D
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You know, one of the things I love about Bit Blot is their willingness to even tolerate a discussion about the fact that their game has been cracked and released. I can count on one hand the number of devs/publishing houses that would do likewise. In my mind, it's a real sign of maturity that they're willing to do so, and a real confidence in their product. A confidence, I might add, that's well-founded.
What a breath of fresh air!
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I'm kind of happy my game isn't popular enough to have been pirated yet.
Wait... :D
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I'm kind of happy my game isn't popular enough to have been pirated yet.
Wait... :D
I'm working on my own commercial release, which would've been finished months ago if I wasn't so lazy, and I when I got to the point that I started thinking about copy protection I thought back to crypto class and started coming up with some really elaborate stuff. Then I decided, so what if people steal it? As someone mentioned, people that pirate games aren't generally those who would've bought the game anyway (and I'm convinced a great many can't, keep in mind the world is a lot bigger than the US and there are a lot of people on the wrong side of an unfavourable exchange rate). The counter-argument is that some of those people would've bought the game if they couldn't steal it, but I don't think that's really true with the independent software market. It usually takes a modicum of internet savvy to pirate just as it takes a degree of internet exposure to even know that independent games exist, which I think separates people that have a way of doing things when it comes to aquiring software from those who know it's out there and just want it. (Also, These are often people who are aware that demos aren't necessarily truely indicative of the value of a game.)
So in that sense it can't really hurt all that much. After all it's been a part of the broader industry since the first games on magnetic media. Maybe my opinion is skewed by developing freeware, but it may even help. It's exposure, after all. If a hundred people pirate a game and one of them buys it, that's one sale rather than one hundred non-sales. If half of those pirates are impressed by a title and recommend it to a friend or two, that's potentially a great number of sales rather than one hundred non-sales. All of those people, pirates or not, might pay a little more attention to your future releases. Again, that's just a difference with independent games thanks to the relatively low market penetration. If you steal a Halo or Mario game, there's no positive effect for the developers since there's nobody you could possibly tell who doesn't know about the title and who gives a fraction of a shit.
I can only speak for myself of course, but I'd much rather every non-buyer pirate my games rather than simply not play at all.
(today i got lost on the way to tigsource)
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Copy protection, of ANY kind, is pretty much useless anyway. It will be cracked, no matter what you use. In the end, it's really just a waste of time.
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Chris Delay from Introversion posted some interesting thoughts on it awhile ago;
"...there were at least ten times as many pirate copies of Uplink and Darwinia as there were legitimate sales. How do we know? Patches available on our website which only work on the full games have been downloaded more than ten times the sales totals of their games. Now hard-line corporate types will tell you this means they've lost 10 x sales x price million dollars based on this, but thats just nonsense. Would all 10 of those 11 users have ever bought the game? No, of course not. But 1 out of 10 of them might, and that would have doubled our sales and made us very happy devs indeed. "
http://forums.introversion.co.uk/introversion/viewtopic.php?t=1046
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Copy protection, of ANY kind, is pretty much useless anyway. It will be cracked, no matter what you use. In the end, it's really just a waste of time.
Well, the usual response to that is it buys time. There's probably some merit in that, as any borderline cases who usually pirate but are hyped about your game might bite the bullet and shell out on impulse. The importance of copy protection probably scales with the anticipation level of your game for that reason. If you know what you're doing it may be possible to baffle crackers for a week or more, but that's probably not worth the effort.
Additionally, buyers expect it, so you need at least some generic protection to look professional.
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Copy protection, of ANY kind, is pretty much useless anyway. It will be cracked, no matter what you use. In the end, it's really just a waste of time.
More importantly, a waste of money too. The best kind of protection against the laymen is a simple cd-check (as the game boots check a file on the disc to make sure the disc is in). Obviously this game doesn't need the disc (downloadable) so that wouldn't work for it. Don't think anything could be done to stop it short of requiring people to buy it on disc.
But seriously, any amount of time spent developing some sort of protection, or worse paying another company for their (ultimately failed piece of security) just doesn't seem worth the dividends invested, especially given the speed that things get pirated. Even DRM is failing the record industry right now. Just no hope against the will of hundreds of thousands of pirates (if not millions). At best a company like 2K got about 2 weeks with Bioshock and it's fancy protection that makes it so I can only install it 5 times before I have to call and give up my first born to the security company for another chance at installing again? At worst, companies have leaks before the game even hits the stores. So I guess you can count yourself lucky Big-Blot/Alec; it took a few days and you didn't pay an insane amount of money for protection like Bioshock.
Hopefully this game will sell like Bioshock though :p. I really look forward to seeing it launch on PSN or XBLA, even though I own neither PS3 nor X360. That would be one service that couldn't be as easily pirated (mod chipped people could do it easily, but less machines are chipped than PC's can play pirated games :(. Plus I just want to see how it would be accepted on those platforms, I hope it would sell well.
I really want this game to come to Steam though. I just feel better buying digital-download-only games through there. So I'm still holding onto the hope that I will be able to get it there, but the demo was fantastic (and honsetly, about 2 hours is crazy! I hadn't played a demo that long in years. They're usually just 20 minutes long at best).
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At best a company like 2K got about 2 weeks with Bioshock and it's fancy protection that makes it so I can only install it 5 times before I have to call and give up my first born to the security company for another chance at installing again? At worst, companies have leaks before the game even hits the stores. So I guess you can count yourself lucky Big-Blot/Alec; it took a few days and you didn't pay an insane amount of money for protection like Bioshock.
Two weeks is an incredibly long time for a mainstream game to go uncracked. The first week or so is by far the most important for mainstream games, so their investment with the SecuROM bullshit was an excellent one. It inconvenienced a small percentage of users, but the principal objective of releasing a product is to make money.
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At best a company like 2K got about 2 weeks with Bioshock and it's fancy protection that makes it so I can only install it 5 times before I have to call and give up my first born to the security company for another chance at installing again? At worst, companies have leaks before the game even hits the stores. So I guess you can count yourself lucky Big-Blot/Alec; it took a few days and you didn't pay an insane amount of money for protection like Bioshock.
Two weeks is an incredibly long time for a mainstream game to go uncracked. The first week or so is by far the most important for mainstream games, so their investment with the SecuROM bullshit was an excellent one. It inconvenienced a small percentage of users, but the principal objective of releasing a product is to make money.
The thing is, especially the HEAVY copy protections, like StarForce, cause even more trouble for the legit players than the pirates. In many cases, where companies (big ones) just decided to go without copy protection completely were met with a greater support in the pirate community than those with heavy protection.
I mean, copy protection like StarForce basically assumes that everyone is a criminal. That's not exactly appreciated by most people.
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Yeah, it's not very nice, but we buy things from evil corporations all the time, even though we know they're McDemonspawn. 2K could have built their offices using ground-up baby mortar and everyone would've still bought Bioshock. Inconvenience or notniceness doesn't significantly hurt mainstream games, I mean just look how many people gleefully purchase new video cards when big titles come out.
StarForce/SecuROM suck, but they aren't going to stop anyone spending money, and as long as they're effective and there's nothing better on the market it still makes business sense to use them.
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I'm curious as to how effective the SecureRom nonsense truly is on the bottom line.
Yes, lots of games are bought immediately. But lots aren't either. Let's think Bioshock:
Lots of people bought it on release. That was a given. There is a given amount of sales that can be counted on based on hype and loyalty alone. That will not change. AND, that demographic is not likely to pirate the game, at least in the long term.
Now, think of the fellow who doesn't have the video card for it yet or saving up for it. Maybe he can't afford the game just yet. By the time he wants to buy it, he hears all this bad press about limited installs and such. But his buddy tells him he has a pirated version of it that works nonetheless, no install worries at all!(yes, this is two weeks later, but this fellow couldn't afford it on release anyway...or maybe he's in Canada or, even worse, the UK where he only gets it after a suitable decade has passed).
"Wow!" he exclaims and wonders why he would shell out 80$ (remember, Canada) for something that can break his computer when he can get, for free, a fully functional copy.
For the short term, it looks great. In the long term: you probably lose lots of money.
Problem is, most of the bigwigs only care about the short term initial oomph of sales.
Now, also factor in the enormous cost to implement these systems and in the long term: you're looking at massive suckage.
You also lose credibility. Ubi got lots of bad press with Starforce and some games, such as Oblivion, got so much bad press they took it out of the final release.
DRM is a bad business model. Problem is, spreadsheets, which is all the money monkeys in the accounting and marketing depts understand, have a hard time revealing this.
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Copy protection, of ANY kind, is pretty much useless anyway. It will be cracked, no matter what you use. In the end, it's really just a waste of time.
Well, the usual response to that is it buys time. There's probably some merit in that, as any borderline cases who usually pirate but are hyped about your game might bite the bullet and shell out on impulse. The importance of copy protection probably scales with the anticipation level of your game for that reason. If you know what you're doing it may be possible to baffle crackers for a week or more, but that's probably not worth the effort.
Additionally, buyers expect it, so you need at least some generic protection to look professional.
That's funny, I work the opposite way. If I know there's going to be some malware being installed with the legit version, I will definitely pirate it first. If it's worth buying, I'll do so and leave the bought copy unopened. As every game has its small glitches in the first iteration, there's nothing to lose by being a few days or even months later than its release to get it.
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I don't think copy protection is totally useless. I don't use it on my games, but that's more because my games aren't yet popular enough to be pirated. But I can see why Aquaria used it (in the form of a registration key and such).
I see copy protection as not intended for the hardcore pirates, but more for the casual pirates, it prevents piracy in the people who know how to send their friends a copy or know how to search for a rapidshare or megaupload link in Google but don't know how to use torrents or key gens and so on. It's true that you can't prevent most pirates from pirating a game, but you can prevent the less tech-savvy ones from doing so.
It's the same reasoning behind locking doors: no lock will keep an expert burglar out of your house, but it'll keep a drunk neighbor out.
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rinku:
Registration codes are not that bad. And I hardly object to their use. this is mainly because they do not inconvenience the actual buyer any more then the pirated copy does and does assist in tracking purchases and the like.
Heck, even older games had clever ways of doing the reg code thing :) Remember Wing Commander asking you when the USO show was going to be shown on the deck of the Cat's Claw carrier ship (you had to read the included 'newsletter' to find out).
That which I'm against is anything above that measure such as installing secret extra bits or bloating your registry or limiting how many installs you're allowed to do after you purchase the game for full retail price. That is silly and counterproductive.
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It makes me cry. I guess i should feel bad that' I've obtained unlegit copies of games several times from much larger studios but still technically it is always wrong and I dunno just seeing aquaria out there for free. I guess i feel a deep sadness in my heart. I should seed a copy with a virus hahaha jk that's just wrong
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Chris Delay from Introversion posted some interesting thoughts on it awhile ago;
"...there were at least ten times as many pirate copies of Uplink and Darwinia as there were legitimate sales. How do we know? Patches available on our website which only work on the full games have been downloaded more than ten times the sales totals of their games. Now hard-line corporate types will tell you this means they've lost 10 x sales x price million dollars based on this, but thats just nonsense. Would all 10 of those 11 users have ever bought the game? No, of course not. But 1 out of 10 of them might, and that would have doubled our sales and made us very happy devs indeed. "
http://forums.introversion.co.uk/introversion/viewtopic.php?t=1046
This is a blatant cum hoc fallacy (it is possibly true, but impossible to verify or disprove, for the record).
'there were at least ten times as many pirate copies... as there were legitimate sales...'
OK, that's a reasonable statement. Prove it.
'Patches available on our website which only work on the full games have been downloaded more than ten times the sales totals of their games'
That fails to account for people who installed the game on a desktop and a laptop (arguably piracy, but certainly people who are never going to buy the second copy), individuals who had to redownload the patches multiple times due to reinstalls/hardware failure/upgrades, individuals who downloaded the file as 'run' instead of 'save as' and crashed after completion (and individuals who didn't complete the download - did the count include only finished downloads, or did it include people on dialup who attempted to download the patch 100 times?), and on and on and on.
This is like saying that 2,000,000,000,000 peanuts were eaten in Georgia last year, so the population of Georgia must be 2,000,000,000,000.
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That fails to account for people who installed the game on a desktop and a laptop (arguably piracy, but certainly people who are never going to buy the second copy), individuals who had to redownload the patches multiple times due to reinstalls/hardware failure/upgrades, individuals who downloaded the file as 'run' instead of 'save as' and crashed after completion (and individuals who didn't complete the download - did the count include only finished downloads, or did it include people on dialup who attempted to download the patch 100 times?), and on and on and on.
I don't suppose statistical significance means anything to you.
I'll also direct your attention to the key terms "at least" and "more than". Ten times may be an extremely conservative estimate for all you know. But even if it were as low as fractionally more copies the point may still be valid, as the actual figure is irrelevant to the argument.
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2K could have built their offices using ground-up baby mortar and everyone would've still bought Bioshock.
Are you kidding?!? iIf 2K did that, I'd buy a dozen copies!
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I dunno - I answer to my own sense of honesty. I'm a full time software developer, so I won't steal other's work. Period. If I can't afford Paintshop Pro, I'll save until I can. That said, I can understand the whole piracy thing too - how many games have I paid $AU90 for, that are absolute pieces of crap. If I had have warezed those games, I'd be a lot richer.
Once my family went to single income and child, I could no longer afford to buy everything as soon as it came out. Once I adjusted my mindset to buying on budget labels, I began to see the advantages. For example: Far Cry for $AU20. All bugs worked out. Plenty of walkthroughs if I need it. Plenty of reviews so I know I'm making a sensible purchasing decision rather than marketing hype.
Once you overcome the "I have to have it now" thing, it's actually pretty easy. Except for me wanting a damn Xbox 360 of course :D
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Personally I like StarDock's solution, makers of Galactic Civilizations II. They used no copy protection but made their game patches authenticate with their servers - unique CD keys that, to my knowledge, nobody keygened / broke.
So folks pirated their game and then couldn't download the patches, which not only fixed bugs but added gameplay, updated AI and made the ship editor more fun.
But I'm not in the business, just a bystander. I just thought that was a cool solution. Authenticating with live servers seems to work great for online games; maybe offline games should do that more.
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This is a blatant cum hoc fallacy (it is possibly true, but impossible to verify or disprove, for the record).
You're very right about that - I thought a similar thing myself when i first read it. I quoted the paragraph mostly because it was the first, and that it made sense out-of-context - not because it was representative of the entire piece. My mistake!
The reason I posted the link was because Chris takes a sort of middle-way and discusses some of the problems with the binary reasoning people use when talking about intellectual property. I have heard others make this argument in more elaborate manners before, but seeing as Introversion are quite big in indie circles, I figured the fact that he posted it should increase interest in the article enough to warrant it being posted.
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I don't suppose statistical significance means anything to you.
I'll also direct your attention to the key terms "at least" and "more than". Ten times may be an extremely conservative estimate for all you know. But even if it were as low as fractionally more copies the point may still be valid, as the actual figure is irrelevant to the argument.
The actual figure DOES matter. You also have to remember that there are plenty of people who download just to download, and many websites which will download the patches in order to host them. There are also people who will download the patch thinking that it will patch a demo, and people who downloaded the patch instead of the demo, be it a misclick or stupidity.
I also pointed out that a cum hoc fallacy is impossible to disprove - the 'ten times' figure may indeed be perfectly accurate, but there's no way to tell.
You're very right about that - I thought a similar thing myself when i first read it. I quoted the paragraph mostly because it was the first, and that it made sense out-of-context - not because it was representative of the entire piece. My mistake!
The reason I posted the link was because Chris takes a sort of middle-way and discusses some of the problems with the binary reasoning people use when talking about intellectual property. I have heard others make this argument in more elaborate manners before, but seeing as Introversion are quite big in indie circles, I figured the fact that he posted it should increase interest in the article enough to warrant it being posted.
I should probably have read the whole thing, but I posted from work and didn't have the chance. :p
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It would be quite naive to think that every single person who bought a game downloaded a patch ten times - that's a HUGE amount. You could pretty much say that at least 8 copies of the game were pirated per copy sold with that.
Something I always thought a company should do, especially with electronic downloads - have each copy of the game include a "fingerprint" code which differentiates that copy sold from the rest, and when the game is downloaded, store in your records who bought which copy. Don't ever check it or do anything with the code when the game's run, otherwise pirates would hack it out, just have it embedded in the game. Then after like 15 minutes of gameplay the very first time the game is run (and only then), have your game secretly try to contact your servers and let them know that fingerprint was just installed. If in a week a copy was installed 50 times, you know that copy was pirated and you know exactly who did it - get a lawyer and have some fun. Sure, some people won't have always-on internet connections, and eventually the pirates will notice, but it should still work.
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In general, "phoning home" without the user's knowledge is something that's very strongly frowned on. Also--even if you had the IP address of the pirates, how would you figure out who to sue? Presumably you could transmit more information, but then you're talking about transmitting users' (even legitimate users') private information without their knowledge.
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Besides, a metric buttload of people use ISPs which give them dynamic IPs, so really you can only narrow it down so much. With a non-mega-hit maybe that's enough (my IP probably says I'm on Mercer Island in Washington and that's probably unique on this forum), but certainly of no use to track down people pirating the kind of games that can afford tv commercials.
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You're misunderstanding me - the game is telling you its fingerprint, not the IP address of the installer. You have on records who each fingerprint belongs to - who paid for the copy that is telling you it was installed 50 times, and their credit card info with their name and address. You aren't suing the people downloading and installing the game, you are suing the first person who bought the game and posted it for everyone to download. You also at that point have a fairly accurate number of how often the game has been downloaded, and copyright law in the US allows you to get damage amounts for each time the game was distributed without your persmission.
Heck, you don't even need to have the game phone home if you really don't want - you could just watch the p2p sources for your game to pop up and then download it yourself, read the fingerprint you embedded into the game. But phoning home makes it so you can track how many people are downloading it (at least until someone catches it phoning home - that's why you wait until they've been playing the game for like 15 minutes).
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Phoning home = bad.
Many smarter network owners monitor the traffic leaving their network. If they see a mystery signal and they can't immediately read what it's saying, it means it could effectively be transmitting anything about you, even stuff you don't want it to send.
This leaves to very bad press.
Remember the stink about some Windows Updates sending more then just your distro info to Microsoft?
Again, it just makes the pirated version "safer" then the real one: the true problem with DRM as a model(again, I don't consider simple reg keys as DRM).
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Sorry for not following the discussion, but I have a simple thing to say:
I've brought the game. By wire transfer, the money should arrive sometimes late next week. Let me explain why I find this a big deal.
I live in Hungary and purchasing online is not popular, let alone the idea of purchasing a game. P2P is the expected way to get games around here, if not trough a network of friends. Typical classes has students trading copied games like pokemon cards. Hell, even moreso then pokemon cards, as most kids outgrew pokemon cards in elementary school.
After I played the demo of Aquaria I was very tempted to follow that example.
What changed my mind is that this game was developed by a couple of guys, and I want those guys have the money to make more great games like Aquaria.
God, does that sound childish to you? What am I expecting here anyway?
Oh right. A word of complements for going the honest path.
So complement me. Please.
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Oh right. A word of complements for going the honest path.
So complement me. Please.
Good for you! :)
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Welcome in the club of honest Aquaria fans!
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Schoolyard sharing of games/music is quite popular in Germany too, but I think most people "grow out" of it once they get a job and 25 Euro stop sonding like a big lot of money. At least, that's my experience ;)
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I don't really care about kids trading games in school, what bothers me is adults with jobs who could easily afford it pirate a game and then use the extra money to buy some extra beer or potato chips or something instead, and then say that piracy doesn't hurt games and that the reason PC game sales are down to about a third of what they were before the world wide web existed has nothing to do with piracy.
I think the long-term answer to piracy though is to make games free and make money through advertising. A lot of popular free Flash games make hundreds of thousands of dollars for their creators through advertising. I just hope Flash improves enough that games like Aquaria will one day be possible to make in it.
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Advertising in games is the worst idea. EA is already doing that quite a bit and it sucks, it's so distracting and blatant. It's almost like breaking the fourth wall. Even though the latest Simpson's game was bad to begin with, having "EA" all over the game made it that much worse. I mean the enemy Krusty dolls had "EA" slapped across their chest. Wtf is up with that?! ???
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I seem to remember reading another interview with Chris Delay from IV where he said that they'd actually released a 'leaked' full version of DEFCON on p2p themselves a few days before release which was in fact only the demo. Trying to use p2p as an advertising network as it were. If you know the game is going to end up there anyway you might as well as least try to take advantage of it like that first.
As for sharing games, I still do that amongst my flatmates, we'll lend each other games we think the other guys might like (I got my flatmate even more addicted to Puzzle Quest than I was!). What's the point in a bunch of students all paying 30 quid to buy one game when we can just pass it round the flat? Besides most of the games we end up sharing are multiplayer console games anyway so we don't each need our own copies as we'll never play them separately.
As for Aquaria it's so cheap that I didn't even think twice about it. Due to the favourable exchange rate it's costing just under 15 pounds. That's nothing for the 20 hours or so of gameplay Aquaria offers. I'd easily have paid about 25 for it.
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I think the long-term answer to piracy though is to make games free and make money through advertising. A lot of popular free Flash games make hundreds of thousands of dollars for their creators through advertising. I just hope Flash improves enough that games like Aquaria will one day be possible to make in it.
A modern, avarage video game has the budget offfffff... a couple million dollars. I think.
Advertising won't do it. Making video games is very expensive, about as expensive as a cheaper Hollywood budget. A decade ago, one could make a game from scratch (engine and tools and everything) and have a roomful of staff to be enough for the job. Nowadays, you can't.
3D made video games very expensive, especially with all the new, fancy and shiny graphic features that you have little use of.
Small or more simple games like Aquaria is a great exception and shows that simple, low-tech games can still be modern and great. It's just not the commonly held belief among publishers, and sadly, gamers.
As for Flash, I am no Flash Master, but I do think that it has its limitations and problems.
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I think the long-term answer to piracy though is to make games free and make money through advertising. A lot of popular free Flash games make hundreds of thousands of dollars for their creators through advertising. I just hope Flash improves enough that games like Aquaria will one day be possible to make in it.
A modern, avarage video game has the budget offfffff... a couple million dollars. I think.
Advertising won't do it. Making video games is very expensive, about as expensive as a cheaper Hollywood budget. A decade ago, one could make a game from scratch (engine and tools and everything) and have a roomful of staff to be enough for the job. Nowadays, you can't.
3D made video games very expensive, especially with all the new, fancy and shiny graphic features that you have little use of.
Small or more simple games like Aquaria is a great exception and shows that simple, low-tech games can still be modern and great. It's just not the commonly held belief among publishers, and sadly, gamers.
As for Flash, I am no Flash Master, but I do think that it has its limitations and problems.
His idea isn't that bad, free games filled with advertising (if it fit in the world/was tasteful, or if you had a commercial interruption like television shows...
I mean, there's a lot of made for TV movies that NBC makes (for example) on one of their sister channels like Sci-Fi. Take the recent Tin-Man as an example. Games could reach taht point if their popularity continues to climb. If games were free to download (avoiding the cost of publication and distribution), and had tasteful ads on billboards in the game or commercials during loadtimes or even 2 minutes of commercials every 20 minutes or when you went through a loadscreen/menu (pausing the action in the middle would be bad unless itwas already paused).
Not many games can go the route of ads in game that woudln't be disruptive though. Sports games would have no issue, and games like Hellgate London wouldn't bat an eye at putting up mountain dew or taco bell ads on the billboards and ad spaces in the world. Anarchy Online is an MMO that gets away with it too because it's got places in the world that had virtual ads anyway. Now they just play 7-11, Mountain Dew, Simpsons whatever...very unobtrusive. Of course you cna choose to pay and not get that.
Maybe a program where you say you'll participate in market research for companies for X amount of hours to be able to play the game for free. Or your commercial viewing would be limited ot 6 months or something (set amount of minutes viewing commercials) to pay for your product. It's quite feasiable in many games.
But for a game like Aquaria, real-world ads would really disrupt the flavor of the world, and the only opportunity to interrupt would be at start of the game, and during loadtimes between stages (maybe 30 seconds of commercial gauranteed, while it loads in the background). The question would be, do the creative minds behind the game want ot have that sort of interruption in their game. It would be gauranteed money for them from the advertising company so that would be good. But it would compromise the creativity a bit.
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I wasn't thinking of advertising in the *middle* of a game -- I think when a game is first loading up (and only then) is a good time and wouldn't be too obstructive.
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I wasn't thinking of advertising in the *middle* of a game -- I think when a game is first loading up (and only then) is a good time and wouldn't be too obstructive.
I think Ubi did something like that with the free versions of Spinter Cell/Far Cry, Was fairly annoying according to some people.
I would not want to spend a minute and a half waiting just so a Mountain Dew advertisement can play. ???
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I wasn't thinking of advertising in the *middle* of a game -- I think when a game is first loading up (and only then) is a good time and wouldn't be too obstructive.
Already done. Nvidia and Ati already do it. It just doesn't give enough money to cover development costs.
His idea isn't that bad, free games filled with advertising (if it fit in the world/was tasteful, or if you had a commercial interruption like television shows...
(snip)
I think its that bad. Not only would it not give sufficient coverage of the development costs, but I find advertising disgusting. By itself and as a whole. Especially in video games.
Although I recall there is one company that lives of advertising. Kuma games I think. They are making Dino Hunter, and so far, only managed to release a strange version of a HL2 deathmatch mod. And its a mod. Not terribly interesting. It's quite obvious they don't have much money for more stuff.
And from the standpoint of advertisers, its not worth it if its unobtrusive. Because if its unobtrusive, then its ineffective. And there is no point in paying large amount of money if its ineffective.
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And from the standpoint of advertisers, its not worth it if its unobtrusive. Because if its unobtrusive, then its ineffective. And there is no point in paying large amount of money if its ineffective.
Not true!
If the ad is intrusive, it is worth *LESS* than if it is subtle. People are more likely to remember the ad if it pisses them off, but less likely to buy the product or recommend it to their friends.
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It's true.
And really, 30$ isn't something (rather nothing), even for me in Poland ;). Indie games are the future and we should support independent game creators, and It's likely i buy te game in meanwhile (my friend got it nad i was playing Aquaria with him - he's a real computer nerd and loves everything related to game creation). So, don't hesitate and buy the game! Aquaria, Derek and Alec really deserve this!
Oh, and btw - the best way to fight with p2p is ignore this society - if people won't bring the interest there would be nobody to seed the torrents...
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It might not be enough to cover the development costs as they are now for mainstream games, but it'd probably be enough to cover development costs for low budget games. For instance, Desktop Tower Defense (a flash game) reportedly made over 100,000$ through ads, so much that the author quit his job to begin to make flash games full time. 100k wouldn't cover the development costs for a game like Final Fantasy 13, but it'd cover the development costs for a game like Aquaria.
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Meh, 100K would cover the costs of development for a game like Aquaria...but what about the livelihoods of those who developed it? What sort of profit would they be making? Not much, and that's why the incentive for independant developers to produce new games seems fairly low.
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Dunno if you read Dueling Analogs, but the actual comic fits perfect in the (asleep) advertisemet discussion. :)
(http://www.duelinganalogs.com/comics/2008-01-24.png)
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Call me a dreamer, but maybe something can be done.. what you think of adding an entry to the main menu? Something like "Few words from the author", where you explain who are behing Bit Blow, how much love you put in the creation of the game... something like the introduction to a book that the author writes for the first page. It's not a nag screen, so it won't make anyone mad...
How would this help solve the problem? You see, I think most people that download from P2P just hear of Aquaria from a review, open thei P2P program and download it: they don't know that Bit Blot it's not EA or <put gaming monster company name here>... they don't know that every license counts, they think they are, as always, a drop in the ocean and that what they do won't hurt you: let they know who you are. Good games made with love are rare: lot of peoples would pay for Aquaria, if they only took time to know that's made by you and no by a mega-gaming-monster...
And besides..I like to know what the authors of my loved books think of their work... I think that a little "Few words from the author" screen would fit perfectly in the Aquaria atmosphere :)
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I found out about the game via a p2p undercurrent, frankly it's a good word of mouth network. things that get posted are first considered worthy and then the degree of popularity is sort of thermometer of what a slice of the public thinks. I actively use torrents for tv, really not much else, but saw the buzz around this game from there, and then saw it posted on a few tech blogs and prompted me to look into it more, where I found out that the game was independent and would benefit directly from my purchase. I've been telling lots of people in person about it and posting it on the various forums I'm on hoping that at least one of those noodles will stick as well.
I just did a quick look at a few sites and it's still being distributed but it's mostly seeded with very little leechers if that says anything ( it's usually the case but the ration seemed steeper ) and on any site that had comments there were people saying to support the developers and others saying they had already bought it. the p2p impact on Aquaria might be significantly different than a commercial game as people think they are not impacting a commercial game's sales as much, and not all, but some people who frequent those sites have a bit of a conscience. personally I am quicker to go see a band live and buy their album or shirt at the show, and do so anytime a band I like comes through town, or if a band is on a smaller label. it's hard to equate game and application developers as artists and comparing them to musicians and setting your morale compass that way might help. it's sort of the difference between a drop in the ocean to a tablespoon in the bathtub, it really does make a difference!
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I'm sorry but stealing a game from indie devs is ridiculous. Sure I download torrents all the time, but it's stuff that I can't get anyother way (PlaneScape Torment) or from a company that has made alot of money from the game (StarCraft).
Makes me mad! >:D
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I think it's naive to assume that the bulk of people leeching off of torrents have a conscience. What you mean is that the few people who bother to post on torrent sites claim to have one. Chances are many of them do not, and the anonymous silent masses almost certainly do not.
I do agree, however, that piracy increases the mindshare a game gets. It may be possible to capitalize on that extra awareness, with something built right into the product, which gets distributed with it regardless of venue. What the details would be, for something like ad revenue which includes pirated copies in the overall multiplier, I have hardly a notion. I need to punt.
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I refuse the torrent a game. There are only 2 circumstances that would cause me to get a game illegally via torrent. 1. The game is out of print or elsewise incredibly difficult to find. Or 2. The game has no demo and a friend REALLY wants me to play it. But in option 2, if I like it and it's available, I will purchase it.
Of course I torrent plenty of other things. Not movies, I used to do that but now I've started to feel really guilty about that. I used to torrent movies b/c my parents never took me to movies or else refused to go to blockbuster because of the huge late fees. But both of those issues have changed, so no more movie torrents for me. The only thing I download nowadays are legal torrents, foreign things that I couldn't get any other way, and anime. I refuse to purchase anime in stores because it is HORRIFYINGLY overpriced. 25 dollars for less than 2 hours of content? You can get a 2 hour movie for 10-15 bucks depending on its age. As far as cost per minute, anime pricing is atrocious.
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I use torrents for:
1. Movies, the Cinema's here are HELLISH expensive and yes I go there from time to time and alot of Movies are not worth their money.
2. Games that I already own or have owned and lost for any reason.
3. Games that have no demo. I just want to try it and most of the time if I like it I buy the original afterwards.
4. Games who aren't worth their value in the stores. Short and ugly games.
5. Music. Somehow I never bought a actual Music CD or a Album or anything else, even thouhg I love to listen to music. Must be because Napster existed in the time that I got into the internet and downloading.
Yes I use torrents alot, but all that I actually do with it doesn't really seem all that illegal, more likely righteous, besides the music... but who doesn't do that? I mean those singers are already rich enough, no need to give them more money. =p
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Well the new ones arn't rich if you steal their music outright.
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@Alpha
Who doesn't download music (via pirate networks)? People who buy the music of course :)
There is plenty of creative-commons/free music floating around out there. I know 80% of it can be considered junk, but when it comes to the free music scene, you can be rewarded with some real gems if you dig hard enough.
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I think it's naive to assume that the bulk of people leeching off of torrents have a conscience. What you mean is that the few people who bother to post on torrent sites claim to have one. Chances are many of them do not, and the anonymous silent masses almost certainly do not.
I think we were at this point of the discussion already, but this people wouldn't have bought the game this way or that way, so you can't consider it a loss... and maybe a friend of them sees it and then he goes and purchase it. Who knows?
I bought more Albums since I started downloading music. A lot more...
Good free music can be found on jamendo.com for example. :)
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I never bought music, propably never will. And I find it kind of hard to find out what's free music and what isn't cause there are anough songs on my comp which I think is free, while alot of people paid for it. Further, I know that all the music from the celebs aren't free, but I don't even listen to most of that music, only groups I ever downloaded from that isn't free would be Metal bands, Linkin Park ( omg EMO, SHUNN), and SOAD and those kinds of groups. Further I listen alot to OST from games. AND that alot of music isn't available in the shops anymore, which is kind of depressing too.
Or paying 5€ for one fucking single, damned Britney Spears
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My option on the matter is that pirating is wrong.
That being said, when a gamemaker is no longer supporting a game/selling it, it's pretty reasonable to torrent it.
The bottom line though, is that pirating opens up the game to people who wouldn't otherwise buy it. They'll tell they're friends, they might be guiltied into it, and when the next big bitblot game comes out, they're going to be ready. It's not something to encourage, but it's not necessarily a bad thing.
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This is pretty funny. How can you take the moral high ground and still admit to this? If you use torrents to download something you shouldn't have, then you did bad. Don't sugar coat it or try to hide it with these flimsy justifications. Best to just man up, or keep quiet.
I think it's the ultimate in irony when there's comments from people saying "Please buy this game" or "Support the developers" under an Aquaria torrent file. Suddenly they develop a conscience about short-changing Alec and Derek, but seem to be fine with carrying on downloading all the other stuff on the site.
I'm sorry but stealing a game from indie devs is ridiculous. Sure I download torrents all the time, but it's stuff that I can't get anyother way (PlaneScape Torment) or from a company that has made alot of money from the game (StarCraft).
Makes me mad!
As far as I know, you can still find Planescape: Torment on eBay or even in bargain bins. Does the auction seller or store owner not deserve your business? And doesn't Blizzard still deserve to make money on their own creation, whether you think they deserve it or not? Why not just own up to the fact that you're taking the path of least resistance (and least payment)?
The only thing I download nowadays are legal torrents, foreign things that I couldn't get any other way, and anime. I refuse to purchase anime in stores because it is HORRIFYINGLY overpriced. 25 dollars for less than 2 hours of content? You can get a 2 hour movie for 10-15 bucks depending on its age. As far as cost per minute, anime pricing is atrocious.
There are places to order imports, but it would require knowing where to look, and money of course. Anime costs too much to justify obtaining it legally? This is different from the people who pirate movies and games, how? If it costs more than a movie, then why not just buy a movie instead?
I use torrents for:
1. Movies, the Cinema's here are HELLISH expensive and yes I go there from time to time and alot of Movies are not worth their money.
2. Games that I already own or have owned and lost for any reason.
3. Games that have no demo. I just want to try it and most of the time if I like it I buy the original afterwards.
4. Games who aren't worth their value in the stores. Short and ugly games.
5. Music. Somehow I never bought a actual Music CD or a Album or anything else, even thouhg I love to listen to music. Must be because Napster existed in the time that I got into the internet and downloading.
Yes I use torrents alot, but all that I actually do with it doesn't really seem all that illegal, more likely righteous, besides the music... but who doesn't do that? I mean those singers are already rich enough, no need to give them more money. =p
1. So you wanted to watch the movie, but just didn't feel like paying for it. Okay.
2. This might make you feel okay, but read the description about torrents below.
3. You must be made of greater moral fiber than many others I know. Most people would just stop once they have the game.
4. Isn't this what the whole situation is revolving around? (Aquaria hitting P2P I mean, short and ugly may not apply)
5. Again, you want the music, but don't want to pay for it.
Even if you try to justify your own reasons for downloading something, this won't hold up in court. Every time you connect to a torrent, you're just helping other people get the same thing, which kind of makes you an accomplice to the crime. How did it go? Some lady was found sharing 12 songs on Kazaa or something and got sued by the RIAA for $200,000, even though her room was filled with CDs she paid for. But hey, at least you saved a few bucks and you're not padding the wallets of those millionaire singers, right? Just hope that you never get caught.
My option on the matter is that pirating is wrong.
That being said, when a gamemaker is no longer supporting a game/selling it, it's pretty reasonable to torrent it.
The bottom line though, is that pirating opens up the game to people who wouldn't otherwise buy it. They'll tell they're friends, they might be guiltied into it, and when the next big bitblot game comes out, they're going to be ready. It's not something to encourage, but it's not necessarily a bad thing.
Sounds like the "abandonware" argument. If you can't find it in a store, it's free. But what happens to the copyright holders, who might be thinking of re-releasing the game? They probably just lost a lot of sales. What about the brick and mortar stores that paid the developer for the game, but never got to sell it? If you try to draw the line somewhere on when you can or can't download something, there will always be an argument to draw a new line closer.
The company isn't selling the game anymore? There's no way to help their business, I should be able to download it.
The game costs $80? That's too much, I should be able to download it.
There's only 100 copies in existence? I'll never be able to find it, I should be able to download it.
I already had the game, but lost it or traded it away? I already paid for it once, I should be able to download it.
You can go on as long as you like. There is no "legal" way to do this, and the sooner you realize it, the sooner you'll see that these lines are just the limits of our conscience. But whatever helps you sleep at night.
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Did I say it would hold up in court? Nope. Why don't I buy a movie instead of an anime? Becuase I wanted an anime NOT a movie that's why. It's not the path of least resistance, it's because absortitant prices have completely barred me from doing one of the things I love to do, watch anime. I'm stealing it. Plain and simple. If they want to price their product so high that the people who want to buy it can't without starving, then I'm not giving them that satisfaction. Also, I do purchase anime overseas or from eBay. But that's in japanese, and I prefer it in english.
In short, when it comes to anime, I'm not taking any kind of moral high ground at all. I don't download anything else illegally IF I CAN HELP IT. I always go out of my way to buy things legally, if the situation warrants it. But I'm not going to continue to defend my actions, because what you think doesn't matter. I'm essentially a very selfish person, with a moderately good sense of morality. I know full well that if I don't support these products somehow, then they will cease being made, and that is the LAST thing I want.
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welcome to the forum Fynn, glad you joined just to admonish everyone. is this a clever 'belly of the whale' reference to Pinocchio? didn't know which way to turn but now our conscience, Jiminy is here.
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Heh, Welcome and Goodbye.
Seriously man, only coming on here to rant against people, what's the next thing, report this topic to the cops and tell them to track us?
I download movies because Cinema's are expensive, we used to pay 5f that's like.. 2.60€ now, you know what we pay for it nowadays? 12.50€ for the simple movies, while there are also movies of 15€ and 20€, so please, I really think I have all right to actually download 2 or 3 movies with every movie I watch in the Cinema, and I also buy A LOT of DVDs we have LOADS of them.
Further about the games, If I owned a game and I cracked the CD or in any case I think I really have the RIGHT to actually download that game again. Even though at a lot of times I didn't. I bought 5 copies of Tiberian Sun. At this very moment I own one of the two CDs that is NEEDED to play the game. Yes, I could go search for the game, buy it AGAIN and lose more money while I only play it for a while. Sometimes I feel like playing the old classics, if I can't find my CD, my CD is broke or just doesn't work I DOWNLOAD the game. And if someone can point me out that I'm wrong with that I'll change my whole freaking life and never pirate again.
Further on the music, yes, I know it's wrong, yes I know I shouldn't do it, and no it's not a excuse that other people do it too, I know that. I just refuse to search months for a CD that I can just download through torrents or P2P.
You make really good points, I know but this isn't the year 2000 anymore. People pirate, things get hacked, period. There is little you can do about it. Until a super-genius shows up, takes the right side and builds a super anti hack thing, things WILL get hacked and people will get things free.
So far humanity isn't as near as criminal-free and it won't be like that in a long time.
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He made his point and that's his right as it is for everyone else too, so no need to become rude.
The fact that cinemas or anime is too expensive may be true, but that doesn't make it right to steal movies or anime. I don't care if you do it, but justifying it to yourself and then attacking others who point out the truth is bad style.
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Sure, it was a rant but it had a grain of truth in it. You can't really pretend to be all holy and righteous by saying " ooh i torrent off only big horrible companies like Blizzard or EA because they deserve it and not indie games" You torrent, your a pirate. I'm not saying im the honest peter pan here either. Its just that you cant justify yourself by saying i torrent off people who deserve it and because its too expensive. You/we are just as bad as the people who torrent off indie gaming.
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I never justified it for myself and even said he was right.
MY opinion however is that I am not going to pay way too much for that stuff while itś not worth their money, that is why I pirate.
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I use torrents for:
Blah blah
Yes I use torrents alot, but all that I actually do with it doesn't really seem all that illegal, more likely righteous, besides the music... but who doesn't do that? I mean those singers are already rich enough, no need to give them more money. =p
Sounds like justification to me dude.
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Those using software illegally are thiefs, plain and simple. Justify it any way you want, you are stealing other people's work.
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Well, I suppose I did try to justify it, but I know it's illegal. But you should think about why laws are made in the first place. If I could send a check for 50 bucks to the makers of every anime I download I would. Because 50 bucks is about what it's worth (especially considering you can watch these things on basic cable in Japan). But spending over 200 dollars on something I could watch for free just because of where I live? I think not. But like I said, I know stealing is wrong on a basic level, and like I said as well, I try to pay for things when I can, and like I said, I take this position uniquely for this subject matter. I do not download movies, I do not download games (except for specific reasons stated above, where I am perfectly within my rights to), and I do not download music. So thank you for the lesson in morality.
But also, I don't necessarily agree with Alpha's concept either...stealing is going to happen anyway so why not it be me? That's just plain wrong. At least I HAVE a reason. That's better than nothing.
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See that thong, Cruxx? It means it a joke. And I said it seems like that.
And yes, I also buy alot and enough things, even the stuff that isn't worth their money. I just thought to be honest here without being looked down upon by "perfect" people.
Pirating exists because people scam you. If everything would be honest and worth their value, pirating wouldn't exist.
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Fynn, if a developer were to re-release something, then It would be with something new added into it. When they stop selling games (old sharewaregames) you can't buy it from someone else. Also, pirating old games once the producer/liscence holder stops selling them does not in any way hurt the developer. Only walmart, when they don't make quite as many sales.
Which I couldn't be assed about, to be honest.
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it's all well and good to quote AlphaSoldier, Glamador and anyone else who posted their views on downloading media and tear them a new one, it's quite easy too. they chose to be honest, and it's rather refreshing to see someone say openly their views on a matter. they did not have to post their views, but being so honest about something like this it will attract do-gooder copynistas who think the most important thing plauging the world is intellectual property infringment. (c) laws are different in different states and countries and are in a great state of flux. artists and companies are meeting the new marketplace head on with new methods of selling their product. Radiohead let the buyers choose how much to spend on their new album and it became the top selling album in the US (http://www.digg.com/music/It_worked_Radiohead_now_the_top_selling_CD_in_the_US). I'm finding the people waving the flaming flag of copyrights are generally douches, they arn't the nicest people to begin with and here's a great cause to be twit pretty much anywhere. sure there is currently legal backing, but in many countries it's either unenforced, unenforcable (http://torrentfreak.com/canadian-police-tolerates-piracy-071110/) or going to change. pirates who are douches should be busted, those who download the whole net and redistribute it without a care for where it came from, but lay off the college kid who brings down the hard to get album or someone who dosn't want to be gouged seeing an ok movie. in my day to day real life, I've yet to run into someone who dosn't pirate something on some level. that's including businesses, students, parents, neighbours, everyone who the topic has come up. everyone seems to have their own line in the ethical beach, some draw it at no music, some at not their music, some just their music, some just the cds they bought, some don't care.
what's important here is that people are finding out about the game, sometimes through pirated copies and then going out and buying it for whatever reason. I personally wasn't guilted, I support good products and buy software that's been useful or very entertaining to me. I'd never be motivated by guilt, some might be, but if my guess is that if anyone saw this product and authentically liked it they would be buying it out of support and appreciation. my original point was I got to this game via p2p exposure, so it's not all doom, there is an unquantifiable effect of it being out there in the wild. but really, those people who are impulse pirating it would not have bought the game anyways, so they are at least getting exposure to it and their friends might see it ( like in my case ) so hard to say if it's really impacting sales at all, helping out or breaking even.
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Thank you Inkblob.
And yes also in the dutchlands the police aims more against big time pirates then personal use ones, but it's still illegal and I know that. Just like the damned intro that the modern movies have now with the "You wouldn't steal this and you wouldn't steal that, well pirating is stealing too." short. I bet everyone knows it's stealing, but as far as I know, if it's easy, everyone steals. And again I'm not trying to justify myself here, I'm just making a point. Getting free stuff easily, if it's illegal or not, people will do it. Anyone would pick up money from the floor if it's worth it.
Yes, I torrent a lot, but I buy way more then I torrent.
At this moment I have 23 official Wii games, while I could've got it hacked seeing I don't use the internet on it anyway.
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There are 23 official Wii games that you actually LIKE!? I mean I love my Wii but I havn't played that many. 15, max.
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I could list them down for you, but I don't like them all, the ones I especially don't like is the Wario Ware game, the Sonic and the Secret rings and Need For Speed Carbon, which I thought would be awesome with the Wii, but it's a total disaster. Further I like pretty much every game I own. From Trauma Center, to Mario Party 8, to Super Mario Galaxy and pretty much every other game I own. Most of them are Worth it, which is pretty much THE reason why I like Nintendo.
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Well, I like alot of things. Warioware, Trauma Center, Zelda, No More Heroes, DBZBT3, RE: Wii Edition, Zack & Wiki, Metroid Prime 3, Wii Sports, Wii Play....those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. I havn't played Mario Strikers Charged, Mario Party, or several of the minigame fests out there like Cooking Mama. But I guess that's because I just don't like certain kinds of games. Sports, Racing, and Strategy being the kinds of games I don't like. So that excludes Need For Speed, various sports games, and Fire Emblem. Still, I can't think of 23 I like.
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Holy cow. 23 Wii games? I have 5, besides Wii Sports: Mario Galaxy, Metroid' 3, S. Paper Mario, Zach & Wiki, and very recently No More Heroes. I have Twilight Princess on the Gamecube. (That really is a GC game.) As far as I know, I'm done buying every Wii game I remotely care about. I hope that changes in the future.
There's nothing new being said here about piracy. It's the same arguments all over again.
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You can't do anything about piracy. Adding ads might be acceptable depending on situation, but it shouldn't be seen as a mechanism to recuperate "lost" sales. The fact is, the market is changing, trying to stop people intent on "stealing" your game is vain and an enormous waste of time, and you're going to have to count on the downloaders to buy it if they like it.
I have associates who don't think it's fair to only have a demo for this kind of thing; these goods do not collect damage, they are not consumable. They can be copied instantly and exactly and spread over millions of machines in seconds, all of this at no loss to the developer. You pay for bread before you eat it because if one wants to be evil and consume your bread without paying, you've lost money and have no way to recuperate the expense. It's a blind gamble to give bread first and collect pay last (although restaurants operate this way and they seem to function relatively well). If patron has a problem with the bread, or it is not as advertised, he returns it for a refund.
Is it really that much different for someone to download the full version of your game as an evaluation than it would be if he downloaded just the demo? Those who acquire from P2P technologies actually save you bandwidth costs, and in the circles I run if a game is deemed worthy it is purchased. We understand that there are real people behind these products and they need to make a living and we are more than happy to subsidize that; just don't see any point in taking our chances on a demo instead of the actual product in such a situation.
So, it boils down to this: you have to believe in people. You don't have a choice anymore, really. I actually see this as a good thing; it's quite corporatist to expect one to buy a whole product based on even a small selection when there is no harm whatsoever in evaluating the real deal, and there is no harm in doing so with software. There is benefit, even if guy decides he shouldn't buy your game: the community grows, word-of-mouth gets going, people contribute content (guides, mods, fan art/fan fic).
Just takes a small paradigm shift to think of ways a proprietor can exploit these new delivery systems to his great advantage; get past the "what if they don't buy it!" and embrace the manifold positive aspects that come from simply trusting your user. Most people do have a conscience, and if they have the money and they appreciate my game, it is my firm belief that as long as the developer didn't use up the customer's investment by forcing him/her to waste hours circumventing DRM and copy protection, and developer treats end-users like grown-ups, fans are more than happy to pay a fair price.
You have to believe that they'll do the right thing and support your game if they like it. It's inevitable that your data will appear on unauthorized networks; you should beat the pirates to the punch so that you can control the distribution. Someone with a grudge might load in a trojan, or other bad things, and this would impugn your reputation. You can add a text file in the torrent that states that you're a very small company, a license is very reasonably priced, and you'd greatly appreciate a vote of confidence in the form of financial support. You should add an about screen to the actual binary, imo.
: )
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Hmm, yeah...
I also use torrents, but I do this mainly only for the things I can't get by any normal means in my country or anime, which is also rather hard to get. I used to download some games, but as Alpha said earlier, I also always bought every title I downloaded. I see it as a justification when somebody buys the thing, he downloaded from a torrent earlier and it seems o.k. to me in that situation. It's normal, we will propably never get rid of this, but at least it's way more better than normal piracy. Most of groups invloved into preparing the torrents are just people who do it for fun, testing their hacking and programming skills and they don't want to make any profits out of this. It's obvious, that you can even see some messages from them, placed in the notes: "If you liked the game, buy it! Support game developers! Don't steal other's work!", and it's also ok. I hate normal piracy, but torrents are kinda justified because of this.
It's just a matter of honesty and truth of various people; how do they react, or get invloved into this. Again...
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I prefer THIS (http://"http://starmen.net/mother2/gameinfo/antipiracy/") kind of antipiracy measure. It seems pretty damn funny. Is it harder for pirates to search for numerous tiny checks throughout the game rather than a few single checks?
Either way, I wish all companies did this as a unilateral policy. It'd be hilarious to hear pirate sob-stories filling my internetz when their game goes haywire.
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Flooding the piracy channels with crippled versions that seem to work fine for a while would be funny. It would be quite a shock for a pirate to suddenly see a box pop up, saying that to play on they need to buy a license from the legal distribution site. These are eventually weeded out, but they would have an impact for a while.
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I think the "moral significance" of torrenting and pirating stems from the intentions of the torrenter. I know people who torrent for the simple reason that they don't feel like paying for something. Then there are people who have reasons aside from pure greed. If you're intention is to either pay for, or delete what you've downloaded once you've "demoed" it then I think it's equivalent to say, watching a movie on TV, or playing a game demo and then going out and buying the full version. It's all about what you INTEND at the time.
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@cookiecaper:
Although unrelated to my previous post, I agree with a lot of the points you made. Adding in anti-hacker measures to games just makes them more determined to crack it, while at the same time upsetting the real customers. I think something like this was added into BioShock?
@Cliftor:
It's cute to see how much you'd enjoy seeing these bad guys get their comeuppance, but most crackers can catch these kinds of things. That's kind of why they're in the business. We saw how much trouble 2K Games made with their SecuROM junk. What was it, 2 weeks until a crack came out? And the funny thing is, a lot of paying customers actually downloaded the crack too, just to get around it! The only people who'll get screwed over will be the unlucky paying customers.
@Xiagan, Cruxx & others:
Thanks, I appreciate it. I might've stirred the pot a bit, not to make enemies, but as I mentioned to inkblob, I just can't stand seeing these kinds of statements, especially on this kind of board (or even thread). Pooing on pirates who steal the game you love, while admitting to theft in other venues, just screams for a wake-up call.
welcome to the forum Fynn, glad you joined just to admonish everyone. is this a clever 'belly of the whale' reference to Pinocchio? didn't know which way to turn but now our conscience, Jiminy is here.
Thanks for the welcome. And I didn't claim to be some great moral compass that everyone should follow. Just wanted to point out the inconsistencies of those who are supporting Bit Blot while at the same time admitting to the same crime that started this thread. What can I say, I abhor hypocrisy.
Did I say it would hold up in court? Nope. Why don't I buy a movie instead of an anime? Becuase I wanted an anime NOT a movie that's why. It's not the path of least resistance, it's because absortitant prices have completely barred me from doing one of the things I love to do, watch anime. I'm stealing it. Plain and simple. If they want to price their product so high that the people who want to buy it can't without starving, then I'm not giving them that satisfaction. Also, I do purchase anime overseas or from eBay. But that's in japanese, and I prefer it in english.
In short, when it comes to anime, I'm not taking any kind of moral high ground at all. I don't download anything else illegally IF I CAN HELP IT. I always go out of my way to buy things legally, if the situation warrants it. But I'm not going to continue to defend my actions, because what you think doesn't matter. I'm essentially a very selfish person, with a moderately good sense of morality. I know full well that if I don't support these products somehow, then they will cease being made, and that is the LAST thing I want.
The quip about courts was just a figure of speech (or was it?). And the part about buying a movie instead of anime was sarcasm (which I hear doesn't translate well over the internet).
The last time I checked, watching anime wasn't a matter of life or death. If saving $25 for an anime video is a choice between starvation or not, I'd say you have more pressing issues to address. Just how much anime are you trying to watch, anyway? You can't eat your cake and have it too. I don't want to make presumptions, but I'll assume that you bought Aquaria for $30. Did this purchase make you question whether you'd be able to eat this month or not?
But I'm glad that you can admit to your true colors. That wasn't so hard, was it? You're now a step above the rest: a person who knows that they're doing wrong, but just doesn't give a shit about it. Now if we could just get those pesky anime licensers to stop charging so much (http://www.loveofanime.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=220). I'm just baffled at your statement of "I'm stealing it" and how you then arrive at that last statement. This is a paradox, and one of these statements or intents is false.
Heh, Welcome and Goodbye.
Seriously man, only coming on here to rant against people, what's the next thing, report this topic to the cops and tell them to track us?
I download movies because Cinema's are expensive, we used to pay 5f that's like.. 2.60€ now, you know what we pay for it nowadays? 12.50€ for the simple movies, while there are also movies of 15€ and 20€, so please, I really think I have all right to actually download 2 or 3 movies with every movie I watch in the Cinema, and I also buy A LOT of DVDs we have LOADS of them.
Further about the games, If I owned a game and I cracked the CD or in any case I think I really have the RIGHT to actually download that game again. Even though at a lot of times I didn't. I bought 5 copies of Tiberian Sun. At this very moment I own one of the two CDs that is NEEDED to play the game. Yes, I could go search for the game, buy it AGAIN and lose more money while I only play it for a while. Sometimes I feel like playing the old classics, if I can't find my CD, my CD is broke or just doesn't work I DOWNLOAD the game. And if someone can point me out that I'm wrong with that I'll change my whole freaking life and never pirate again.
Further on the music, yes, I know it's wrong, yes I know I shouldn't do it, and no it's not a excuse that other people do it too, I know that. I just refuse to search months for a CD that I can just download through torrents or P2P.
You make really good points, I know but this isn't the year 2000 anymore. People pirate, things get hacked, period. There is little you can do about it. Until a super-genius shows up, takes the right side and builds a super anti hack thing, things WILL get hacked and people will get things free.
So far humanity isn't as near as criminal-free and it won't be like that in a long time.
Well, thanks for the welcome, but I only left for a little while. And no, I won't call the cops, but I will say from personal experience that the law tends to sneak up on you when you least expect it.
Yeah, man! I remember when movies cost like $5 to watch. Now it's $10 or more! Insane! What did I do about it? I just stopped going to movie theaters, and read reviews or asked friends about it. But hey, don't let me stop you, Mr. Deserver. You've obviously done greater things for society and are entitled to watch a few movies on the sly.
I am sorry for your loss of games, as I too have had the problem of discs getting scratched, broken or even lost. But you might wanna check the fine print in your user's manual or the EULA before you start mentioning "rights" to download a game. You know, that big wall o' text that pops up when you install a PC game, but most people just skip? Have you tried checking warranties, or seeing if the company can replace your broken disc? I heard Gametap is pretty good at getting lots of games on your computer, maybe C&C is on there?
But in the end, I'm glad that you can finally admit to joining the club of not giving a shit. It's best not to hide our piratey tendencies. Given the choice between having to "search months" or "just download" something, why are people still surprised by the answer?
Fynn, if a developer were to re-release something, then It would be with something new added into it. When they stop selling games (old sharewaregames) you can't buy it from someone else. Also, pirating old games once the producer/liscence holder stops selling them does not in any way hurt the developer. Only walmart, when they don't make quite as many sales.
Which I couldn't be assed about, to be honest.
Ok, lemme just make sure I got this right. After the producer or developer stops "selling" a game, it's perfectly all right to start pirating a game. Because hey, the people who created it will no longer be compensated for it. I think the next logical question would be, where does this leave the retailers?
Believe me, I'd love to stick it to Wal-Mart as much as the next guy, but the video game industry depends on the old brick-and-mortar stores and having the presence of games on their shelves. Do I have to spin out a hypothetical example of stores losing money on sales leading to less demand from producers, which in turn leads to less production overall? Don't make me do it, please.
Why do you think there's leftover copies of games sitting in bargain bins or on people's auctions on eBay? Don't tell them that since they don't represent Black Isle Studios (I'm assuming this stems from the Planescape example), they no longer deserve money or compensation. BIS went out of business, so any money spent on their products is wasted, right? Might as well pirate!
As for re-releasing, why would it have to include something new? It could be as simple as making more copies due to fan demand. Interplay is almost back on its feet I think. Why not ask them to do a reprint of Torment? But would they make as much money now if the game wasn't pirated? Who knows? Maybe they won't now since it wouldn't turn much of a profit.
it's all well and good to quote AlphaSoldier, Glamador and anyone else who posted their views on downloading media and tear them a new one, it's quite easy too. they chose to be honest, and it's rather refreshing to see someone say openly their views on a matter. they did not have to post their views, but being so honest about something like this it will attract do-gooder copynistas who think the most important thing plauging the world is intellectual property infringment. (c) laws are different in different states and countries and are in a great state of flux. artists and companies are meeting the new marketplace head on with new methods of selling their product. Radiohead let the buyers choose how much to spend on their new album and it became the top selling album in the US. I'm finding the people waving the flaming flag of copyrights are generally douches, they arn't the nicest people to begin with and here's a great cause to be twit pretty much anywhere. sure there is currently legal backing, but in many countries it's either unenforced, unenforcable or going to change. pirates who are douches should be busted, those who download the whole net and redistribute it without a care for where it came from, but lay off the college kid who brings down the hard to get album or someone who dosn't want to be gouged seeing an ok movie. in my day to day real life, I've yet to run into someone who dosn't pirate something on some level. that's including businesses, students, parents, neighbours, everyone who the topic has come up. everyone seems to have their own line in the ethical beach, some draw it at no music, some at not their music, some just their music, some just the cds they bought, some don't care.
what's important here is that people are finding out about the game, sometimes through pirated copies and then going out and buying it for whatever reason. I personally wasn't guilted, I support good products and buy software that's been useful or very entertaining to me. I'd never be motivated by guilt, some might be, but if my guess is that if anyone saw this product and authentically liked it they would be buying it out of support and appreciation. my original point was I got to this game via p2p exposure, so it's not all doom, there is an unquantifiable effect of it being out there in the wild. but really, those people who are impulse pirating it would not have bought the game anyways, so they are at least getting exposure to it and their friends might see it ( like in my case ) so hard to say if it's really impacting sales at all, helping out or breaking even.
Geez, why'd you have to go and get me all ready to reply, just to end up saying stuff that I mostly agree with anyway? I didn't think of it as tearing them a new one. Just trying to get them to see things from another point of view (admittedly, mine). I thought this was a thread on people downloading Aquaria, after all. But being able to point out inconsistencies in their posts helps build my case. And in their responses, they managed to say that they were aware of what they were doing, but just couldn't be bothered to take the legal approach. Maybe not completely free of justifications, but about as good as it'll get.
But I am curious, why are you opposed to those who fight copyright infringement? How will we be able to distinguish the "douche pirates" from the "college kid" (not necessarily mutually exclusive)? If your best friend received a subpoena to appear in court for distributing copyrighted material, would you support him wholeheartedly with testimony to his good nature, even if his computer was hosting the equivalent of Suprnova? For some reason, I'm reminded of the old anti-drug conundrum: Who's easier to go after, the drug dealers or the drug users? I hate the MPAA and RIAA too, but can you honest-to-god tell me that they have no right to do it? I feel bad for the musicians getting screwed by the record industry, and the writers by the entertainment biz. But this is getting a bit off-topic now.
I know things get pirated on a daily basis, but what does this really say about our society? This stuff is so easy to get, it's like picking up a $20 bill off the ground and just keeping it. Should we try to change people's morality? Should we just keep putting in anti-piracy measures and cross our fingers hoping to make a profit? Or we could just own up to the fact that this stuff is gonna get downloaded, and there's really not much anyone can do about it.
P.S. I don't hate any of you guys for pirating or whatever, I'm not your mother. You could drive your hot pink 1967 Cadillac Eldorado convertible, with whale skin hubcaps and all-leather cow interior and big brown baby seal eyes for headlights, at 115 miles per hour getting one mile per gallon, etc etc. for all I care. Just realize that there are always consequences to your actions, whether apparent or not. The people who downloaded Aquaria are pretty much using the same reasoning that's been shown here, whether it's justified or not. And like it or not, everyone's basically in the same boat.
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Well that was a nice big useless post.
And it makes me wonder if you downloaded Aquaria through pirating.
Okay, that wasa bit rude, but seriously, did YOU even tried looking it from another point of view? With pretty much every action I do, I look what concequences this may have, to whom, and if it's good or not. No, pirating is not good and can have bad concequences, but doesn't most of the time.
And that agreement in games is utter bullshit, I have taken several games, LIKE CnC, Red Alert 2, where I actually read the License agreement, and there was nothing no shit in that said I could actually request a new CD.
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I think claiming a moral imperative against pirating 'abandonware' is a bit much. Sure, anyone who attempts to make a legal distinction doesn't know what they're talking about, but leaving classics untouched at the whims of bean counters, particularly in an age where the selling of products for download is so effortless, strikes me as an entirely arbitrary proscription - the tenth commandment is not Thou Shalt Not Breach Copyright. I don't particularly feel that any other piracy is justifiable, but I'm not going to judge anyone in that regard. Unless they try to justify it :P
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I thought that the basic point was that, if you torrent your a bad guy. Doesn't matter whether you torrent off EA or off Bit blot. Your still a pirate. Alphasoldier and Glamador tried to justify it, but as alpha explained later, he was just joking.
Fynn has kind of strayed off now, saying why we should not torrent as i understand it.
I think the "moral significance" of torrenting and pirating stems from the intentions of the torrenter. I know people who torrent for the simple reason that they don't feel like paying for something. Then there are people who have reasons aside from pure greed. If you're intention is to either pay for, or delete what you've downloaded once you've "demoed" it then I think it's equivalent to say, watching a movie on TV, or playing a game demo and then going out and buying the full version. It's all about what you INTEND at the time.
Wrong. Its not about what you intend. The means do not justify the ends, nor does the end justify the means. I dont give a damn what your reasons are for torrenting.
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I'll admit I stopped reading after the part pertaining to me. LONG post. And yes, I have already considered the idea that I'm contributing to the problem. I took economics I know how it works. But the simple fact is, my parents are paying for my meals right now, which I very much appreciate. My only personal income comes from my scholarship which must also go towards books and such. So I have very little in the way of pure spending money each month. I like games and anime, but I've had to limit myself considerably since I've had to start paying my own way for it (while I was in middle/high school my parents kindly footed the bill). As a full time student you can imagine I need something to take my mind off things, and the way I see it, isn't anime and games a better outlet than sex or drugs? I think so. But if I can't get my hands on these things then I'd be in a real spiraling depression. Everybody needs entertainment. And just to be clear, if I could afford it, I certainly would pay for anything and everything. And once I get a nice degree and a nice job with good pay (which I should, in my current carreer path) then I can afford to go to the store and buy stuff. Besides, it's just plain easier to skip down the road to Best Buy and purchase something, since downloading takes a LONG time. With my slow connection it sometimes takes a week to download one 26 episode anime. Admittedly that's about how long it takes me to watch one, but still. Anyway, you see my point. People will want what they want, and if one means of procurring it is barred (as it is for me, at this moment) then they will find another means. That's all I've done. Preferrably I'd like to support the economy, since I am a supporter of the capitalist method, but I'm far more of a supporter of getting the things I like. Selfish I know, but I'm kind of a selfish person.
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Well that was a nice big useless post.
And it makes me wonder if you downloaded Aquaria through pirating.
Okay, that wasa bit rude, but seriously, did YOU even tried looking it from another point of view? With pretty much every action I do, I look what concequences this may have, to whom, and if it's good or not. No, pirating is not good and can have bad concequences, but doesn't most of the time.
And that agreement in games is utter bullshit, I have taken several games, LIKE CnC, Red Alert 2, where I actually read the License agreement, and there was nothing no shit in that said I could actually request a new CD.
If it really matters that much to you, no, I did not pirate Aquaria, but I haven't bought it yet either. Only played the demo, but you're free to make any assumptions you want since I'll have no way to prove this to you. And I'm not attempting to drag your name through the mud, just using your speeches as an example to make my point. Because you're not the only one to have said or thought these things. A lot of people I knew in college believed the same things. And I did try to look at it from your point of view. Here is what you said:
I download movies because Cinema's are expensive, we used to pay 5f that's like.. 2.60€ now, you know what we pay for it nowadays? 12.50€ for the simple movies, while there are also movies of 15€ and 20€, so please, I really think I have all right to actually download 2 or 3 movies with every movie I watch in the Cinema, and I also buy A LOT of DVDs we have LOADS of them.
You buy "a lot of DVDs", got it. But I couldn't figure out how you can jump from that to "I have all right to actually download 2 or 3 movies". Why? Is it your personal mission in life to watch every movie ever made? Did you buy the wrong ones and wished you had gotten the ones you don't own instead? To me, it's just basically the same as believing, "I download movies because it's easy and free, and I'll never get caught". But it's so hard to get people to say this, because they don't want to admit that they're thieves! Do you see what I'm trying to say?
About the EULA, I didn't mean that it tells you how to order a new CD. I meant that there's usually a clause that says "Do not distribute this game, attempt to resell it, blah blah". I feel bad that you would have to pay for the game every time that you broke it, though I probably would also caution you to be more careful. If the game stops working and you didn't scratch it or break it, you can usually return it to the company for a cheap replacement. You may feel entitled to a free replacement via the Internet, but that doesn't make it right.
Doesn't have a consequence most of the time? Have you ever heard of the butterfly effect? If you were really the only one committing piracy, then yeah, there isn't much of a consequence. But being part of a community (and let's face it, if you have access to downloadable material, you are one of them) means you have a much greater impact than any one individual. The nature of bittorrents means that you become another cog in the machine. This isn't something you can wash your hands free of because you're not as bad as the rest of them.
(All that said and done, I'm sure you're an okay guy in real life. I may feel a bit disappointed in the train of thought used to arrive at the result, but what's one anonymous guy's opinion matter on the Internet?)
I think claiming a moral imperative against pirating 'abandonware' is a bit much. Sure, anyone who attempts to make a legal distinction doesn't know what they're talking about, but leaving classics untouched at the whims of bean counters, particularly in an age where the selling of products for download is so effortless, strikes me as an entirely arbitrary proscription - the tenth commandment is not Thou Shalt Not Breach Copyright. I don't particularly feel that any other piracy is justifiable, but I'm not going to judge anyone in that regard. Unless they try to justify it
Well, trying to legitimize their actions is just a load of bologna. The disclaimers on these sites say things such as "It is legal to download this game if the company has gone out of business" or "You are authorized to download one copy to replace your own if you lost or broke yours". I remember claims on rom servers saying "You can download roms for 24 hours before being required to delete them". The hell? They're just confusing the ones who don't want to break any laws, and the real pirates are pretty much going to ignore it anyway. It's just wishful thinking and vain attempts to avoid lawsuits.
How many games would have been lost to the cosmos if someone wasn't keeping a backup copy of it somewhere? You could do a simple search for "roms" or "abandonware" and see huge lists of games you probably never even heard of. Now, if you were saving these games for posterity, that'd be a commendable effort. You'll be praised and lauded by others who appreciate the free exchange and preservation of data. It's like being the Internet version of Robin Hood or something. But these sites basically operate on the premise of, who's going to stop us? I'm not an accountant or lawyer, but I would be willing to guess that with these games being thrown around in disregard of copyright laws, it basically means that your copyright is worth jack shit. Why do we even have copyright laws then? Why do they have a 100 year lifespan and not just die with the company? (This is a whole different beast of a discussion though)
Maybe people who download abandonware consider themselves connoisseurs or historians or anti-copyright activists. Just realize that you're indulging in a guilty pleasure.
I thought that the basic point was that, if you torrent your a bad guy. Doesn't matter whether you torrent off EA or off Bit blot. Your still a pirate. Alphasoldier and Glamador tried to justify it, but as alpha explained later, he was just joking.
Fynn has kind of strayed off now, saying why we should not torrent as i understand it.
I think the "moral significance" of torrenting and pirating stems from the intentions of the torrenter. I know people who torrent for the simple reason that they don't feel like paying for something. Then there are people who have reasons aside from pure greed. If you're intention is to either pay for, or delete what you've downloaded once you've "demoed" it then I think it's equivalent to say, watching a movie on TV, or playing a game demo and then going out and buying the full version. It's all about what you INTEND at the time.
Wrong. Its not about what you intend. The means do not justify the ends, nor does the end justify the means. I dont give a damn what your reasons are for torrenting.
Ok, if he really was joking, I must have missed that, and I apologize. Sometimes it's hard to tell what a person means. If they add a smiley after a sentence, I can't tell if they're making a tongue-in-cheek comment, or just softening the impact of what they're really trying to say. The statement of not giving singers more money than they deserved seemed like one of those thought processes that I was addressing in my post.
The idea of being a bad guy is subjective. I don't really think anyone here thinks of themselves as a bad guy, and can argue that they'll leave this world a better place than it was. But if I get caught downloading the newest Pokemon game by the ESA, no argument in the world is going to exonerate me. When I was offering examples of why one shouldn't pirate, it was to try to show the effects of their actions. Whether it be showing a different side of the morality equation, or a cause and effect. I hate to be so blunt, but if one really believes that it's perfectly okay to pirate something and there aren't any consequences, then that person is truly naive. You could simply just go without whatever it is you want; not all desires are meant to be fulfilled.
If you played a game demo or watched a TV broadcast of a movie, it was because this was something the makers wanted you to have. If you download a movie to "demo" it, how is this any different than watching it without paying? What if you didn't like it? You don't end up paying for it, but have reaped the benefit of having watched it at least once. You basically got something for nothing. Surely you can see the problem with this. It's like holding the company's product hostage and saying, "I'll pay for it if I think it's worth it". This line of thought is only acceptable if you haven't obtained the product, and seems kind of silly when you've already gotten what you wanted, because you're holding all the cards now.
To me, there's a fundamental difference between saying, "I'm gonna download this because I'm just a cheap bastard who can't be arsed to pay for stuff" and "I'm gonna download this because it's not really hurting anyone, and I still go to church, donate to charity and pay my taxes". The former realizes that what he's doing is wrong and accepts his fate, but the latter has some sort of regret for his actions or doesn't want to face the responsibilities it entails. I don't want to imply that the hardened criminal is on a higher ethical tier than the man who steals food to survive. But whether you think that companies don't deserve money, or can't be bothered to do things the legitimate way, or even that you somehow deserve something, is not an honest excuse for these crimes. In our society, the poor man would receive a much lighter sentence, but is still viewed as a thief.
Whether it's games, movies, music, or anime, every time you download something without paying for it is a blow to the industry. Producers, publishers, middle-men, retailers and end-users are all part of the equation, and someone gets affected. One little freebie for yourself might not seem so wrong. But think of this analogy: water is still water at 99 degrees Celsius, and it's that last degree that makes all the difference. Everything tends to add up. Heh, almost like global warming.
What is the point I'm trying to make? If you pirated something, you did wrong. Just be honest to yourself. If you want to stay on the right side of the law, there's always alternatives available to you. But whenever you cross the line, it was your own choice to do it; no one forced you. And whether you want to admit it or not, it was done because it was the path of least resistance and greatest personal reward. It's easy to be a scofflaw when the odds of being punished are one in a million. It's human nature. It's a sad state of our society, but c'est la vie.
Like I said, I don't really care what you download or how often you do it. I don't want to be the morality police, though inkblob may have been close with the Jiminy comparison. It's a free country (or so I hear), and a free Internet. But don't sugar-coat your deeds like you're trying to balance some karmic scale. You relinquished your position on the right side of the law; don't try to claim you're still on the right side of ethics as well, unless it were a matter of life or death. Maybe it just confuses me how people can occasionally "dabble" in piracy and still try to appear as some model citizen. In my opinion, the less said about your piracy, the better.
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@Glamador:
I just saw your post while I was still editing mine. Yeah, it was long, but I just want to minimize the number of times I post, by saying all that I can at once. I can empathize with your position. We all want nice things, whether or not we can afford it. Being a full-time student can come with an enormous workload, with deadlines to meet and tons of stress to boot. Perhaps games and anime are better than sex and drugs (probably subject to change depending on who you ask). If given the choice between downloading a few games or shows, or having a depressed student drop out of school and have their life spiral downward, I'd be hard pressed to defend copyrights. But you've made it clear that you are content with this course of action. Anyway, piracy is simply weighing risk vs. reward.
I guess if you do realize that despite your predicament, your actions will still have an impact on the industries you love or depend on, then that's about all I can hope for. And you also realize that people will tend to indulge themselves before others, which helps clear up the distinction between an "Aquaria pirate" and the others. It's just a matter of perspective and priorities; we're not all saints. But we can still wag our fingers at each other.
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Well, trying to legitimize their actions is just a load of bologna. The disclaimers on these sites say things such as "It is legal to download this game if the company has gone out of business" or "You are authorized to download one copy to replace your own if you lost or broke yours". I remember claims on rom servers saying "You can download roms for 24 hours before being required to delete them". The hell? They're just confusing the ones who don't want to break any laws, and the real pirates are pretty much going to ignore it anyway. It's just wishful thinking and vain attempts to avoid lawsuits.
How many games would have been lost to the cosmos if someone wasn't keeping a backup copy of it somewhere? You could do a simple search for "roms" or "abandonware" and see huge lists of games you probably never even heard of. Now, if you were saving these games for posterity, that'd be a commendable effort. You'll be praised and lauded by others who appreciate the free exchange and preservation of data. It's like being the Internet version of Robin Hood or something. But these sites basically operate on the premise of, who's going to stop us? I'm not an accountant or lawyer, but I would be willing to guess that with these games being thrown around in disregard of copyright laws, it basically means that your copyright is worth jack shit. Why do we even have copyright laws then? Why do they have a 100 year lifespan and not just die with the company? (This is a whole different beast of a discussion though)
Maybe people who download abandonware consider themselves connoisseurs or historians or anti-copyright activists. Just realize that you're indulging in a guilty pleasure.
HotU, one of the best abandonware sites (though now, regrettably, dead), contains no such disclaimers, only hosts files if the game could not be found in online stores and removes titles immediately if a copyright owner or their representative requests it; clearly you use a broad brush. In practical terms copyright is 'worth jack shit', as is money, law and any other social construct - but, as you say, that's another can of worms. There is no legal basis on which 'abandonware' is legitimate, but do you honestly believe that enforcing arbitrary restrictions from which none gain is sensible? That the creators of the games would prefer them to gather dust than be appreciated? I have no pretentions of anarchism or connoisseurship, I'm simply pointing out that you conflate legality and morality, and so I remind you that abandonware is not a guilty pleasure, merely an illegal one ;) No other form of piracy, to my mind, is in a similar position.
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good grief, you've typed more than almost everyone here tied together in 3 posts. I hope you arn't advocating this much on other forums, that would surely take up your days doing that! ok, got my facetiousness out. all of your points are well made, Fynn, and there is nothing to disagree inherently about them.
But I am curious, why are you opposed to those who fight copyright infringement? How will we be able to distinguish the "douche pirates" from the "college kid" (not necessarily mutually exclusive)? If your best friend received a subpoena to appear in court for distributing copyrighted material, would you support him wholeheartedly with testimony to his good nature, even if his computer was hosting the equivalent of Suprnova? For some reason, I'm reminded of the old anti-drug conundrum: Who's easier to go after, the drug dealers or the drug users? I hate the MPAA and RIAA too, but can you honest-to-god tell me that they have no right to do it? I feel bad for the musicians getting screwed by the record industry, and the writers by the entertainment biz. But this is getting a bit off-topic now.
the paint stroke is invariably to broad, there rarely is any attempt to make the distinction. from my experience there is a certain type of character who is attracted to copyright advocacy and they often would sooner level an environment then coming to a solution. you know, the MPAA and RIAA don't bother me half as much because it's their actual job. some of the methods employed by either amateurs or professionals are as underhanded and as criminal as the pirates themselves, but you could say that is the nature of going undercover and profiling. dos attacks, harassment campaigns, false identities and infiltration are the norm for bringing groups down and it's quite effective. when it's being done to a SAHM who has a Disney character in their email or forum signature then imo the advocate is being morally lower then the offending user of said graphic.
the RIAA have frequently and publically targeted the drug dealers, where if you want to make changes then they should be working at an isp level, with the web hosters and software makers. this problem is not going to go away, just like vcr's and mix tapes are ingrained into our society, there has to be a favourable solution for both parties. I'm not sure about where anyone else lives but here garage sales are not actually legal, and it's against municipal bylaws to put out furniture for free onto the boulevard. technically you have to have a permit to have a bake sale and almost no one declares the income they make from weekend craft markets. there is a very grey area in real life, and sure, if these people were taken to task and prosecuted they'd have no legitimate excuse other than everyone else was doing it. these sorts of things are not really crimes especially in comparison to the real problems going on and that's sort of my perspective on internet matters as well. prosecution of, yes hypocritical and guilty, people for downloading a game or album compared to someone hosting a few terrorbytes of media is silly. that's the douche distinction, and attacking students and grannies who might have partially added to the snowball but can't financially defend themselves is bullying and a poor allocation of offensive tactics.
anyone here ( or publically anywhere ) posting exactly what they illegally download is a bit silly but that's their choice. and since they typed it out and pressed post, they had the time to review if they wanted to or not, so you not reporting them to the 'cops' is not as a gracious or benevolent act as it might appear, they've made up their own minds and power to them. all that said, you're obviously well informed, considered, and almost likable, maybe discuss the game or something on the forum?
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I registered here to say that I acquired a copy of Aquaria via a P2P source, and am loving it so much that I'm going to buy a legit copy as soon as I get my next paycheck. I'll probably look into getting the OS X version once it comes out, too.
Make of this what you will. Just wanted to let you know that not every P2P download is a lost sale for Bit Blot. I'll certainly be following whatever other games they make in the future, and paying for them. Judging from Aquaria, I'm in for a treat. ;)
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Well your certainly an honest chap.
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this is a interesting article from the developer's side of the issue:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/sep/11/games.piracy1
wow, a quick scan through this thread and almost missing ol Fynn, sort of like how I'm going to miss Sarah Palin :)
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I registered here to say that I acquired a copy of Aquaria via a P2P source, and am loving it so much that I'm going to buy a legit copy as soon as I get my next paycheck. I'll probably look into getting the OS X version once it comes out, too.
Make of this what you will. Just wanted to let you know that not every P2P download is a lost sale for Bit Blot. I'll certainly be following whatever other games they make in the future, and paying for them. Judging from Aquaria, I'm in for a treat. ;)
Same counts for me. I pirated Aquaria at first because I just didn't know how to pay without creditcard or PayPal. I used P2P as a way to enjoy the game, but I want to support Alec and Derek in what they do, so I purchased the game eventually. I might even order some copies for friends, if I could help it. The game is certainly worth the 25 Euros I spend on it.
I've been refusing to give the files I downloaded to people I told about Aquaria, for obvious reasons. I keep telling people how Aquaria was and still is my favourite game ever. I'm certainly impressed by the game and I'd be happy if I ever become as talented and successful as the members of the Bit-Blot team. c:
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I think Derek and Alec should create a donation system on the bit-blot website, to "further their artistic ventures" (PR-speak for making a load of well-deserved dough) ;) It might even offset the money lost from the dread unrepented p2p'ers, although P2P is inexcusable.
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I think Derek and Alec should create a donation system on the bit-blot website, to "further their artistic ventures" (PR-speak for making a load of well-deserved dough) ;) It might even offset the money lost from the dread unrepented p2p'ers, although P2P is inexcusable.
if I could dl a car I'd probably do it
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Wait a sec... what does "dl" mean? Please excuse my ignorance. ;)
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download or downloaded
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Thanks!
Answering Inkblob's post: Imagine what type of copy protection they will need when it actually becomes possible!
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I'm finding it very hard to find the movie 'W' on teh torrents. it could be the most brilliantly copyright protected film ever titled. the next Spiderman movie should be called avi, it would be impossible to find in the search results ;)