Bit Blot Forum

Aquaria => General => Topic started by: Archeus on January 30, 2009, 01:49:07 am

Title: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Archeus on January 30, 2009, 01:49:07 am
Sorry if this has been asked a million times and what not. Played and finished the game and can honestly says its probably one of the best (if not THE) game i have ever played. Not to mention alot of depth and meaning if you dig a bit.

So the only thing I wish to know is: When is the sequel? A game this good, i hope will be given its closure.

:D Anyway, first post. Nice to meet you all.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Chibi on January 30, 2009, 02:29:11 am
Huge post right here ... I compiled everything Alec said about a sequel:

There will be a sequel (at least it is planned), but atm is Bit Blot working on improving Aquaria AND making another (unrelated) game. Right, Alec?

Yeah, I'm working on those. Derek is doing his own side projects now.

I have plans for two other Aquaria games that I'd love to do, but I wouldn't want to do them without Derek's involvement - in some form.

We'll have to see what happens!

In the meantime, working on something new will be a lot of fun... and it'll be with a somewhat different team too. :)

Aquaria Trilogy FTW!  xD

Will the monkeys be in the sequel? (If you're planning on one, that is)....

You play as a monkey in the sequel. :o

Hilarious.  :)

I think there's some confusion here ... lol :)

Yeah, if you're talking about a possible sequel, which we're totally not working on right now, but maybe at some point in the future... then yeah, there are some ideas where it would take place. (the secret ending hints at part of it)

Mysterious ...  :o  :)

In terms of energy projectiles, they are based on the same energy as souls. They exist in both worlds, but are only vulnerable to another spirit with the appropriate power.

Red crystals = memory crystals
Blue crystals = spirit crystals

More on that kind of stuff in the sequel. (if it ever happens)

Rather cryptic, Alec - gameplay in the spirit world against enemy souls? *drools*  ;)

I really want to make it. We have plans for this whole storyline and where it all goes. I don't think we'd work on it right away though, have something else in the works atm.

Also its kinda interesting, we planned the "to be continued" ending to only happen when you collected certain things that we thought would be hard to collect. But apparently not, a lot of people are getting that ending first. I was thinking that people would play with the shorter ending first and then the hardcore players would find out that we were hoping to make a sequel and some hints on what it would be about.

My 2 cents:

Right now I don't think we could handle working on a sequel, because we really just feel like working on something new.

That said, the sequel would be quite different from the original and involve a number of new ideas and game play concepts, so I don't think it would feel like a rehash either.

I also think it would benefit the sequel if we waited a while and came back to do it at a later point in our lives when we have a different perspective on things. (no idea when that would be) It would be interesting thematically, we could kind of challenge our old ideas.

Looks like Alec would be willing to do a sequel if Derek is, the upper limit of sequels will be two, and there will be several new gameplay ideas and other innovations / storylines that will distinguish the sequels from the original. I can't wait.  :)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Archeus on January 30, 2009, 02:36:20 am
Oi.. i hope they are planning on making one. Would be a travesty for them not to at this point. Such a masterpiece without closure would be bad.

Heres to hopeing. :D

Ah, and Alec.. would you all be willing to take more people for this project or is it simply a duo?
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Archeus on January 30, 2009, 02:56:50 am
And one more thing... is the music cd out yet? i would like to buy it to support you guys.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Chibi on January 30, 2009, 04:57:59 am
It's not out yet - BTW, there's a handy little "Edit Post" button that's preferable to double posting. Thanks!  :)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: FaeDyne on February 07, 2009, 04:29:24 pm
Huge post right here ... I compiled everything Alec said about a sequel:
Thank you for all the work, Chibi!

I still think the theme he has for the game he's currently working on is similar to Aquaria. Young female protagonist, formerly manipulated, rebels against her creator, and has body-altering powers.

Will the monkeys be in the sequel? (If you're planning on one, that is)....

You play as a monkey in the sequel. :o
I bet he's not kidding either. :) Humans are monkeys. Maybe you get to play as Li.

I think there's some confusion here ... lol :)

Yeah, if you're talking about a possible sequel, which we're totally not working on right now, but maybe at some point in the future... then yeah, there are some ideas where it would take place. (the secret ending hints at part of it)
Seeing the flying castle, I thought right away about flying forms. That would be fun. Maybe for the 3 games we'll have water, earth, and air. It would be nice if we get a mod-able engine at some point that allows us to make use of all the systems from the previous games. Swimming, flying, and walking, or whatever they end up being.

My 2 cents:

Right now I don't think we could handle working on a sequel, because we really just feel like working on something new.

That said, the sequel would be quite different from the original and involve a number of new ideas and game play concepts, so I don't think it would feel like a rehash either.

I also think it would benefit the sequel if we waited a while and came back to do it at a later point in our lives when we have a different perspective on things. (no idea when that would be) It would be interesting thematically, we could kind of challenge our old ideas.
I'm sad that it will be so long before we get to see more, but I hope Derek intends to return to it as much as Alec does, and I'll be waiting for whenever it happens. I guess it will also give them a chance to improve and learn new things to apply to a new game.
I'm also waiting for the hard-copy game to come out to buy it. I gotta have pretty box art on my shelf. It'll go with my Ryzom and Myst boxes. (and WoW. hahah) Not sure about the soundtrack, but I am interested and do like to support my favorite artists.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alphasoldier on February 07, 2009, 06:29:27 pm
I bet he's not kidding either. :) Humans are monkeys. Maybe you get to play as Li.
Spoiler Post:
Actually, I'd guess you'd play as Lucien, the kid you see flying away at the end, which would be a half monkey.

I actually wonder what happened to Li though, I mean, you see Naija in the crystal on the main screen, that's what happened to her, but what about Li? Did he die of old age? Or did he drown because Naija wasn't around anymore?
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Chibi on February 07, 2009, 06:46:51 pm
Interesting issue; however, Li could just retrieve his helmet from the save room.

If a sequel is in the works, I'd love the same swim / fly / burrow capabilities Faedyne suggested. An expedition to find the remnants of the flying city would fit the bill.  :D
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Titch on February 08, 2009, 12:48:34 am
Flight wouldn't be that hard to mod in, y'know. Among the many things I want to try once I get to good grips with doing custom forms is adding a flight form.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: silverflagon on February 08, 2009, 01:01:54 am
Swimming is not much different to flying in a game, no gravity unless you programme it in lol :D
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: FaeDyne on February 09, 2009, 07:37:02 am
Interesting issue; however, Li could just retrieve his helmet from the save room.

If a sequel is in the works, I'd love the same swim / fly / burrow capabilities Faedyne suggested. An expedition to find the remnants of the flying city would fit the bill.  :D
I was thinking more traditional walking as far as "earth", rather than burrowing. Burrowing would probably take up a lot of info to keep track of the altered map. Maybe you could gain some wall-sticking powers or something.

Swimming is not much different to flying in a game, no gravity unless you programme it in lol :D
Yes, gravity is more pronounced in flight than in swimming. or at least faster-acting. It wouldn't be the same at all.

I bet he's not kidding either. :) Humans are monkeys. Maybe you get to play as Li.
Spoiler Post:
Actually, I'd guess you'd play as Lucien, the kid you see flying away at the end, which would be a half monkey.

I actually wonder what happened to Li though, I mean, you see Naija in the crystal on the main screen, that's what happened to her, but what about Li? Did he die of old age? Or did he drown because Naija wasn't around anymore?
Oh, is that ... Li and Naija's son? I didn't remember the ending that well. It's been a while. All I remember is a human boy in an airship. I thought maybe it was Li. I also thought there was a more Naija-like girl that I thought was their daughter, but I forget if we ever got info from the source on who she was.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alphasoldier on February 09, 2009, 08:21:12 am
The other one is I believe Lucien's girlfriend, or maybe in some very twisted way Li's ne girlfriend.

Either way, she's somebody's girlfriend, it's how she's called. =p
I'd guess she's from Mithalas
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: surt on February 09, 2009, 08:36:20 am
Looks like Alec would be willing to do a sequel if Derek is...
If Derek doesn't want to front the full workload of the art for a sequal, and is just willing to take on a design/oversight role, I'm sure based on the strength of the first game, there'd be bucket-loads of artists willing to slave over the drudge work for peanuts.

Yes, gravity is more pronounced in flight than in swimming. or at least faster-acting. It wouldn't be the same at all.
As they are both just propulsion through a fluid they are physically essentially the same thing bar a few variables.

Oh, is that ... Li and Naija's son? I didn't remember the ending that well. It's been a while. All I remember is a human boy in an airship. I thought maybe it was Li. I also thought there was a more Naija-like girl that I thought was their daughter, but I forget if we ever got info from the source on who she was.
According to the gfx directory the girl is "luciengf" which I presume is Lucien's girlfriend.
When I saw the ending I too thought the girl was Naija and Li's daughter, but I thought the boy must be her son (Naija's grand-son) as he looks much younger than the she does.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Align on February 09, 2009, 11:22:06 pm
Hmm well, Prince Rask was brought back to life like the other leaders (except for the sun worshippers, poor guys got left out), and the other leaders got other race members greeting them - it seems implied that the Mithalans were brought back too, only they were left off-screen. Possibly because none of them figured they should go to the throne room.

So I guess the gf being Mithalan wouldn't be farfetched.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: FaeDyne on February 10, 2009, 08:38:08 am
Looks like Alec would be willing to do a sequel if Derek is...
If Derek doesn't want to front the full workload of the art for a sequal, and is just willing to take on a design/oversight role, I'm sure based on the strength of the first game, there'd be bucket-loads of artists willing to slave over the drudge work for peanuts.
Well, let's not put words in his mouth, but I would like to know if Derek has an interest in doing this eventually, or if he's indefinitely disinterested.

Yes, gravity is more pronounced in flight than in swimming. or at least faster-acting. It wouldn't be the same at all.
As they are both just propulsion through a fluid they are physically essentially the same thing bar a few variables.
But there was no gravity put in place in the swimming in this game. (Other than when you left the water or immediately upon entering it.) If the controls were the same for the air, it would be strange. I think moving upward should be slower. I mean, you gotta flap your wings or catch an updraft to rise in the air. Maybe you could do loop-de-loops, but you'd lose some altitude when you did it.

Mmm... you know what would also be awesome? semi-3D air/water movement. more than 2.5D though. Maybe if it was 2D but instead of limited layers, you would have full control but still view it from the side.  :> hmm... or maybe more like 2.55 dimensions, where you could at least rotate in 45 degree increments. I was thinking enemies on other layers should be limited to moving parallel, but what's the fun in that? seeing them fore-shortened would give you enough clues that they're heading towards you. hm, but you wouldn't be able to tell exactly where they intersect with your layer... :S

Boy, air travel would be difficult to limit without "caging the bird". or don't limit it. or set unexplained barriers when you get too far away from stuff to interact with. heh. if you didn't limit it, you could put a secret in another continent after you fly for a few days across the ocean, assuming you're character is not prone to weakening from hunger. watch there be no limits and people try that only to find there is nothing, or it loops back to the other side. hahah. :>

Oh, is that ... Li and Naija's son? I didn't remember the ending that well. It's been a while. All I remember is a human boy in an airship. I thought maybe it was Li. I also thought there was a more Naija-like girl that I thought was their daughter, but I forget if we ever got info from the source on who she was.
According to the gfx directory the girl is "luciengf" which I presume is Lucien's girlfriend.
When I saw the ending I too thought the girl was Naija and Li's daughter, but I thought the boy must be her son (Naija's grand-son) as he looks much younger than the she does.
Ok, thanks.

Hmm well, Prince Rask was brought back to life like the other leaders (except for the sun worshippers, poor guys got left out), and the other leaders got other race members greeting them - it seems implied that the Mithalans were brought back too, only they were left off-screen. Possibly because none of them figured they should go to the throne room.

So I guess the gf being Mithalan wouldn't be farfetched.
If the Mithalans were brought back off-screen, couldn't the same have happened to the sun worshipers? Boy, I don't remember what happened in the game or why.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Chibi on February 10, 2009, 11:39:34 am
Answering your second point: if Naija were a hummingbird, the issue would be solved. Otherwise, Alec could just have the wings cut out after a certain amount of time / distance then have Naija splash back into the water.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Particlese on February 10, 2009, 05:09:02 pm
You could also turn her into some blocks of aerogel or something, and then she'd have no problem gaining altitude.  The problem then would be submerging herself for swimming.  Come to think of it, that sounds like a really mean thing to do to Naija.  :o  Maybe she could switch back and forth with some singing.  Or you could try to blame the flying on the Verse.  Ever play NiGHTS?  The character in that game flies with no problem using magic, and it plays really well.  The movement is restricted to 2D, but that plane bends around the 3D world in a set way.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: silverflagon on February 10, 2009, 05:47:50 pm
Quote
Boy, air travel would be difficult to limit without "caging the bird". or don't limit it. or set unexplained barriers when you get too far away from stuff to interact with. heh. if you didn't limit it, you could put a secret in another continent after you fly for a few days across the ocean, assuming you're character is not prone to weakening from hunger. watch there be no limits and people try that only to find there is nothing, or it loops back to the other side. hahah. :>

Magic is used throughout the game so using it to limit her should be no problem, but how about large volcanos or Rocs?
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Grahf on February 10, 2009, 10:37:34 pm
The ending and the plot in general seemed shallow, predictable and forced. I think the design team would do well to take the smooth and dynamic game play and apply it to a better written storyline. Perhaps hire some writers. ;-)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Nava on February 10, 2009, 11:18:37 pm
The ending and the plot in general seemed shallow, predictable and forced. I think the design team would do well to take the smooth and dynamic game play and apply it to a better written storyline. Perhaps hire some writers. ;-)

I think a lot of people would disagree with you on this. Both the plot and atmosphere of Aquaria are a very personal reflection of feelings and ideas shared between Alec and Derek. From a developer's point of view, where is the fun in creating a world that is not actually your creation? The smooth and dynamic gameplay and the evocative atmosphere of the game are derived from the developers' emotional investment in the project. Hiring writers to tell your story takes that emotional resonance out of the developers' hands; it moves the project further from their personal values and emotions, the end result being a flatter experience, a game bearing no imprint of the "hearts and souls" of the designers, so to speak.

Besides, many of the members here have expressed a love for the story and an appreciation of its depth and beauty... speaking for myself, as someone who knows Alec very well in real life, I see a lot of depth, meaning, and philosophical implications in the character of Naija and the challenges she faces within the frame of the story.

What is it about the story, precisely, that disappoints you so much?
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alphasoldier on February 11, 2009, 12:41:18 am
I think a lot of people would disagree with you on this.
Correct.

Like... the only thing I obviously saw coming after Mithalas was more destructed races and of course that the creator was the big evil. But further? The story amazed me.

If you're talking about the cheesy, evil guy, hero/heroine, love of hero/heroine who meet and then get departed, casualties of races kind of story... Yeah, sure, but that's in every good story. I think you want it even more unique.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: silverflagon on February 11, 2009, 01:40:17 am
The ending and the plot in general seemed shallow, predictable and forced. I think the design team would do well to take the smooth and dynamic game play and apply it to a better written storyline. Perhaps hire some writers. ;-)
Perhaps you would prefer to play ninja fighting games instead, they have really brilliant story lines.........
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Chibi on February 11, 2009, 04:57:01 am
The ending and the plot in general seemed shallow, predictable and forced. I think the design team would do well to take the smooth and dynamic game play and apply it to a better written storyline. Perhaps hire some writers. ;-)
To each their own, but very few humans are not touched in some way by the story.  8) Maybe it's the issue described in the first part of this (http://www.bit-blot.com/forum/index.php?topic=1369.0) thread?  :-\  :) I found the story quite deep (pardon the pun) although you have to read between the lines to truly appreciate it.

Perhaps you would prefer to play ninja fighting games instead, they have really brilliant story lines.........

He probably would - and enjoy it more than Aquaria. Ignoring the fact that Bit-Blot is roughly .01% the size of most other developers in the genre (Action/Adventure),  still manages to maintain a higher level of quality, and developed the game in two years over the internet ...
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Align on February 11, 2009, 11:48:56 am
But there was no gravity put in place in the swimming in this game. (Other than when you left the water or immediately upon entering it.) If the controls were the same for the air, it would be strange. I think moving upward should be slower. I mean, you gotta flap your wings or catch an updraft to rise in the air.
Depends on the means of flight. Super-hero style, which just ignores any inconvenient physical laws, would work much like swimming.
Quote
If the Mithalans were brought back off-screen, couldn't the same have happened to the sun worshipers? Boy, I don't remember what happened in the game or why.
Well, there was no soul to save in the Body for their race, so I'm not so sure.



As for story... While I love Aquaria in many ways, the story was cheesy at best. (also voice acting; Mithala made me cringe)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alec on February 11, 2009, 02:44:27 pm
I'm confused as to why some people think the story is cheesy, actually.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Chibi on February 11, 2009, 03:17:31 pm
Just ignore them. Their vision of the perfect game is incompatible with Aquaria.  ;)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Particlese on February 11, 2009, 03:38:35 pm
Maybe because it's different from the stuff coming from some of the big guys...it's not completely saturated with machismo, angst, and boobies.  ;)  And maybe pixel shaders are part of the story, too.  Who knows?
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Align on February 11, 2009, 03:57:16 pm
It's just not terribly original.
Girl (usually boy, admittedly) with amnesia is brought out of her everyday life by specific event, goes on adventure, finds out about her past, encounters love at first sight (very bad in a videogame because of the difficulty in building character and tension) who proves crucial to adventure, but is kidnapped (often killed, in stories), goes on to kill a god(-like being)...
Grossly oversimplified, but the cliché parts stand out. A lot. Amnesia in particular is something I no longer accept as possibly being part of a good story.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Chibi on February 11, 2009, 04:19:35 pm
Why don't you accept amnesia as part of a good story? Had Aquaria first had amnesia in a story, would you like it better?  :) I suppose it's all because of one thing - Aquaria's perceived faults stand out sharply against everything else.  :D
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alec on February 11, 2009, 04:43:30 pm
I think a lot of people have trouble with the Li storyline, but the main problem they have is that they read it as if the game is saying:

"li and naija met each other, now the game is telling me that they love each other completely forever"

i.e. They find the notion that someone could find true love at first sight silly, and since the game seems to be saying that that is TRUE, then they're like... "that's stupid".

However, the game leaves it an open question as to whether that was actually true love or just teenage fascination.

Naija certainly believes its true love, but first love often feels like true love ... until it ends.

What we know about the characters is that they were both very lonely, and both felt disconnected from their backgrounds. The odds of them falling in love as a way to feel better would be pretty high.

Whether that love would survive beyond them trying to start a family is another question.

There's actually a hint in the ending dialog that Naija isn't very happy with the home life... she thought it was the ideal that she wanted, but she misses the adventure. I think that points to Naija not being content with being tied down to Li and the baby. (generally this also mirror's the player's motivation - wishing there was more game to experience)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Align on February 11, 2009, 05:07:43 pm
Ah, too subtle for me...
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alec on February 11, 2009, 05:26:33 pm
Ah, too subtle for me...

I guess this is what I find confusing, the people that find the game too cheesy think its cheesy because the finer points are too subtle for them. :)

Oh no Snake, its a paradox!
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Align on February 11, 2009, 05:43:16 pm
Well, I didn't say "shallow".
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Nava on February 11, 2009, 06:58:22 pm
Ah, too subtle for me...

I guess this is what I find confusing, the people that find the game too cheesy think its cheesy because the finer points are too subtle for them. :)

Oh no Snake, its a paradox!

I think maybe people make broad predeterminations on the general plot elements and don't allow themselves to open up to the nuances that can be inserted into that general plot.

For example, I don't like horror stories where someone moves into a house and something is WROOONG with the house, because it typically feels predictable and forced and I can tell from point one who will die and who will survive. And then (after much hesitation because of its plot) I read House of Leaves, which inserts pound after pound of nuance into the traditional frame of the "eerie house" cliché, taking it beyond its genre.

I mean sure, an exciting new story is great, but how often do you come by those?? Not much is really new anymore. Instead, good stories are ones that take old plots and examine them and play with them in new (sometimes subtle) ways, generally according to the personal interpretations of the 'author'. I feel that Aquaria accomplishes that very well.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Grahf on February 11, 2009, 07:17:42 pm
Hmmm, I'm surprised that by simply not enjoying the story as much as some of the other forum members I'm somehow less mature and should stick to Ninja Gaiden. For the record several stories in games have captivated me, Xenogears, Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy Tactics to name a few. Xenogears, in particular, will always be the standard for me in terms of story telling in games.

But Aquaria...

Where I think Aquaria fell short was in the voice acting (Yes, I know, it was low budget, it just bothered me), the sudden addition and over simplification of the relationship with Li, the often over acted emotional scenes,  and the massive gaps in game play where nothing happens spotted with huge story points that seem to throw the whole back story at you in bursts. Theres something to be said for flow. In regards to the nuts and bolts of the plot it's honestly not that hard to come up with a "deep" concept, as its been done time and time in other games. Its mostly a matter of recycling ideas in clever ways and dressing it up so that its entertaining to the player. Every once and a while a new and exciting story comes around that really catches you off guard (ie. the three games I listed above), but most are just the same old jumbled around with new faces, and thats fine! I just enjoy a little polish with those games, which Aquaria lacked.

But even though I'm being hard on the story I really did enjoy the game play. The combat was smooth, the environments were well designed, the bosses were challenging. The song system brought a sincere sense of difficulty and, at times, panic when surrounded by enemies before I realized I could use the number keys to switch effortlessly =P. My only gripe is that character upgrading came primarily through food farming (which wasn't even necessary to beat most bosses) and form acquisition, which would be nice if most of the forms weren't a simple gimmick to get through barriers. I suppose I'm still a fan of the item system used in Castle Vania Symphony of the Night, which is still my #1 side scroller. It created a nice sense of character development which I found lacking in Aquaria. You could grab new armor, but their effects were largely worthless barring one incredibly overpowered silly looking suit ;-). I'm sure one of the main reasons for this is that programming in a huge item database and balancing bosses accordingly would be much much much more time consuming and for a small dev team, thats not always an option.

So all in all, Great gameplay, average plot, sub par story telling, sub par character development. I'd still buy it again if I could go back. = )

Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Titch on February 12, 2009, 12:33:24 am
It seems to me Grahf that you picked up a short story or novelette and you found it disappointing that it didn't contain the content of a full blown novel. Aquaria is not an RPG. If you know anything about games writing, then you would know that most games (as in ones that aren't 40 hours long on a single play through) are written in a single act structure; because unless you are Hideo Kojima you have to keep narrative content balanced with gameplay in order to deliver a good gameplay experience. A one act structure doesn't give you a lot to play with when it comes to character development and plot twists.

Also, Chrono Trigger. New and exciting? Don't make me laugh.  I love Chrono Trigger, but Time Travel and Defeating the big evil monster that is sucking the life out of the planet is hardly new. There was a book, it was called 'The Time Machine' or something like that -_-;
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: silverflagon on February 12, 2009, 01:20:47 am
If you think that was bad you should try Syberia lol

I found it pretty good and I see a bit more there than the most obvious story of boy meets the last girl alive, and girl meets the last boy alive and falls in love and follows her around like a lost puppy... Think about it...  Magic is what this story is about and magic was used on both of them...
 Most stories are about love or power and it's not easy to write a truely original story line believable, and I know that Alec and Derek have done a very good job with Aquaria without having to find the money to pay top actors to take on the parts.

I didn't call you imature I just thought that the fighting games were more to your taste, and that is the impression that you gave. Like it or not it's done, you should of taken time to explain your reasoning in the first place then you wouldn't of left yourself open to the remarks you don't like.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Chibi on February 12, 2009, 01:53:34 am
Sorry to post so harshly, Grahf. You do have some reasoning for your position, though I wholeheartedly disagree with you.  :)

[EDIT]: However, your forceful first posts are unjustified. (As Silver states).
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Grahf on February 12, 2009, 11:03:27 pm
Sorry to post so harshly, Grahf. You do have some reasoning for your position, though I wholeheartedly disagree with you.  :)

Haha, no worries, given the scope of the internet thats not uncommon.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: silverflagon on February 12, 2009, 11:51:49 pm
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it's better if their opinion is explained in a less forceful way perhaps? :)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alec on February 13, 2009, 12:57:43 am
IMO, Xenogears had a pretty terrible story, and the storytelling was even worse. It even degraded into a novel at the end. (I'm guessing they ran out of time to finish the game properly? They just ended up having large periods of text followed by a single boss or single dungeon)

I enjoyed playing through Xenogears, but I can't for the life of me remember anything about the plot, because it was so convoluted.

I think Aquaria relies a lot on the player's imagination to fill in the gaps. Its a more subtle/light way of telling a story. I guess the downside of that is that some people fill in the gaps with "OMG IT WOULD HAVE TO BE THIS STUPID THING THAT I HATE LOL".

Oh well, you win some, you lose some. You can't make people who are determined to hate something like it. :)

And that's one of the main reasons why I don't ever want to have to make a sequel. :D
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alphasoldier on February 13, 2009, 01:15:38 am
Wait, main reason you DON'T want to make a sequel.
That first means there are more reasons and second it makes me wonder if there are enough reasons that MAKe you want to make a sequel. D:
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alec on February 13, 2009, 02:32:04 am
Well the main reason to NOT do a sequel is that it wouldn't be worth all the heartache and misery again.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Chibi on February 13, 2009, 04:56:33 am
That's a good point. The last effort pretty much dominated your life by the sound of it ... but think how many other people you would make happy by making a sequel.  :D
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Zoko on February 13, 2009, 08:08:28 am
Aquaria is a unique story in the way that it's told, and this all relies on the player. There are some people out there who are too dense to look beyond what is presented to them to what it truly means. To fully get the meaning of some events, you have to look deeper. (ie: Naija finding Li symbolizes an end to Naija's constant loneliness, but some people would only see this as "oh wow she found a boyfrnd")

Anyway, I think people aren't asking the right question about the sequel. It's not what it's gonna be like, it's how it's going to be like. Because I think that if you guys have possible sequel(s) in mind, it probably won't be exactly like this one. Now don't get me wrong, I enjoyed swimming around as much as the next person, but aquaria is a one of kind game, and I have the feeling that another game exactly like this one won't be as successful as the original. That's what mods are for.

Of course, I may be horribly wrong.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: FaeDyne on February 13, 2009, 12:27:17 pm
Despite any criticism I might have, I'd still like a sequel even if it was done the same as Aquaria in almost every way. (although a new gameplay style would be nice)

I'm sorry that Aquaria has been too difficult to repeat the process, but aren't you going to get that with ANY game you make?? How is the current game you're working on going to be spared from criticism? Is it because it doesn't have a forum? You could just close the forum.
I don't want to say the issue is irrelevant, just that it's not irreconcilable, and that I think you'll still have to deal with the issue if you keep on the profession of game-making. (I don't know if you have other jobs, like music composition or music playing; and whether they're free from criticism or just of significantly less criticism...)

IMO, Xenogears had a pretty terrible story, and the storytelling was even worse. It even degraded into a novel at the end. (I'm guessing they ran out of time to finish the game properly? They just ended up having large periods of text followed by a single boss or single dungeon)

I enjoyed playing through Xenogears, but I can't for the life of me remember anything about the plot, because it was so convoluted.

I think Aquaria relies a lot on the player's imagination to fill in the gaps. Its a more subtle/light way of telling a story. I guess the downside of that is that some people fill in the gaps with "OMG IT WOULD HAVE TO BE THIS STUPID THING THAT I HATE LOL".

Oh well, you win some, you lose some. You can't make people who are determined to hate something like it. :)

And that's one of the main reasons why I don't ever want to have to make a sequel. :D
I haven't played Aquaria recently to re-evaluate how your story-telling relates to any of these issues.
On a similar note about leaving things up to the audience to imagine, I get pretty sick and tired of the TV show Lost doing that, but they give no hints at all.

I do think there was some cheesiness in the voice acting. Over-dramatic in places.
I think voices in games are a lot more demanding than text. With text you can imagine the voice in your head however you think it would be most appropriate. When you hear a voice, it's no longer tailored to you. It's just more difficult to get voices right than text,  I think. There's just a lot more variation.

Aquaria is a unique story in the way that it's told, and this all relies on the player. There are some people out there who are too dense to look beyond what is presented to them to what it truly means. To fully get the meaning of some events, you have to look deeper. (ie: Naija finding Li symbolizes an end to Naija's constant loneliness, but some people would only see this as "oh wow she found a boyfrnd")
No, I think the end of loneliness was literally in the dialog. No reading between the lines required there.

Also, while we don't get any build-up to the romance, we do get a flashback that they've met at least briefly before.
If it hadn't been for Li running away when they "first" met suggesting otherwise, there might have been the possibility that they had spent time together.
I wonder if Li meeting her as a little girl while he was in a boat is the reason for him remaining there and diving. (unless he was just stuck there with no alternative. :> )
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: delve on February 13, 2009, 02:43:33 pm
I do think there was some cheesiness in the voice acting. Over-dramatic in places.
I think voices in games are a lot more demanding than text. With text you can imagine the voice in your head however you think it would be most appropriate. When you hear a voice, it's no longer tailored to you. It's just more difficult to get voices right than text,  I think. There's just a lot more variation.

I thought the dramatics were a good fit with the overall style of the game. The entire game is very artistic and striking, it suits the mood to have dramatic somewhat stylized voiceover.

Also iirc the narrative is spoken in first person past tense, in other words Naija is speaking as if recalling from memory a very important event in her history. I think this perspective is lost somewhere at or near the end, I'd have to go play again to confirm that (what a shame!). My point though is that very emotional memories tend to be overdramatized as well.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Lestaticon on February 13, 2009, 06:35:12 pm
Well I loved the voice acting!

I've been very happily enjoying all aspects of Aquaria. I'm an old time gamer and I've since added this to my list of classics. It's right up there on my list with The Longest Journey, which has been one of my favorite story and character centric games.

About subtlety and storytelling. I'm a huge fan of the story telling in the tv show Babylon 5. However, a friend of mine, who I consider brilliant and respect greatly thinks the story of B5 is too basic and not very interesting. I completely disagree. I think the story in B5 and Aquaria are similar in the fact it is a mixture of subtleties and feelings you explore and discover using intuition. I'm not explaining this well. I'm just sure there are lots of ideas, feelings, and situations I notice in Aquaria that some others do not. And those things I take away from the game really put the game well above others.

People are just different. Not all have the same perceptions, intuitiveness, and sensibilities. There is no way you can please every personality type out there.

Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Nava on February 13, 2009, 06:44:52 pm
I'm sorry that Aquaria has been too difficult to repeat the process, but aren't you going to get that with ANY game you make?? How is the current game you're working on going to be spared from criticism? Is it because it doesn't have a forum? You could just close the forum.
I don't want to say the issue is irrelevant, just that it's not irreconcilable, and that I think you'll still have to deal with the issue if you keep on the profession of game-making. (I don't know if you have other jobs, like music composition or music playing; and whether they're free from criticism or just of significantly less criticism...)

The heartache and misery he's referring to is more personal than not wanting to deal with criticism.

And re: voice acting. I thought Jenna did a great job; it's many steps above any voice acting I've encountered in other games.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Zoko on February 13, 2009, 06:45:17 pm
The voice acting doesn't seem too over-dramatised to me,  seemed to pretty much fit the story.

As to the end of loneliness and reading between the lines, I meant you really have to feel Naija's end of loneliness, not only percept it as something that happens in the game.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Grahf on February 14, 2009, 12:02:51 am
"IMO, Xenogears had a pretty terrible story[/b], and the storytelling was even worse. It even degraded into a novel at the end. (I'm guessing they ran out of time to finish the game properly? They just ended up having large periods of text followed by a single boss or single dungeon)

I enjoyed playing through Xenogears, but I can't for the life of me remember anything about the plot[/b], because it was so convoluted."

Odd that you'd describe something as terrible when you don't remember anything about it! The plot was robust, yes, and it had a lot of intertwining stories, but it was presented clearly, provided enough back story to instill a sense of emotional involvement with the characters and had a coherent flow. I'm surprised you wouldn't be more fond of it considering it has several similarities with your story (A very powerful being with amnesia, two lovers bound by 'fate' to be with each other, the destruction of a 'god', a puppet master controlling a growing power to use for his / her own ends, etc.)

And once again, to reiterate, I wasn't saying "OMG I HATE AQUARIAS STORY LOLOLKEKEKE", I was voicing an opinion not uncommon on this forum, that the story had a lot of holes for parts of games, telegraphed too much in others, and lacked needed back story to instill an emotional interest. Of course though, thats fine. Its a side scroller. SoTN had about as interesting a plot as Commando, I still love them both.

The only reason I voiced this opinion to begin with is that a lot of people were talking the plot up quite a bit. I figured any forum benefits from diversity, so why not contribute?
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alphasoldier on February 14, 2009, 12:45:58 am
I told myself multiple times to not join the discussion, but I'm gonna anyway, to comment on your:
The only reason I voiced this opinion to begin with is that a lot of people were talking the plot up quite a bit. I figured any forum benefits from diversity, so why not contribute?
I personally think you crossed the line when you said: "Where I think Aquaria fell short was in the voice acting (Yes, I know, it was low budget, it just bothered me)", there was really nothing wrong with the voice acting and I think there wouldn't be anyone or anything that could do it any better. The way Jenna narrated everything almost perfectly to every emotion and timing. Not too overemotional and story was put in when needed.
Aquaria is still a game, there has to be gameplay, not scenes with interaction like the oh-so-lacking Kingdom Hearts. The cut scenes and narrating that's in Aquaria is impossible to improve. That'd be my view on that.
Now for you.
So far you've been defending your first post from the start, going in against everyone who says otherwise while slowly changing side, admitting one thing after the other.
No, you're not saying "OMG I HATE AQUARIAS STORY LOLOLKEKEKE", you're saying: "It's an ok game, but I don't really like much about it because it's not my taste, but I thought I'd share my opinion with you guys anyway.". Diversity is okay, but cracking down games is not. So far, all the reasons you gave were not supported by examples or were just plain wrong.

Also, don't crack down the way people say things.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alec on February 14, 2009, 12:55:22 am
Yeah, its not about criticism, its more about making something intensely personal that costs years of your life and much personal strain and then realizing that it wasn't worth it.

I don't think I'll make anything intensely personal or big in scope anytime soon. I dread having to go through all that again.

Or maybe I will, but not in game form.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: silverflagon on February 14, 2009, 01:19:14 am


And that's one of the main reasons why I don't ever want to have to make a sequel. :D
Noooo! :o :'(
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Chibi on February 14, 2009, 01:30:07 am
Whatever's best for you - do it, Alec. But once you've replenished your energy stores, remember those who played Aquaria devoutly, hanging onto Naija's every word and reveling in the beauty of the game. Those are the people who await the sequel. Thank you for the hope of a return to the waters ...  :)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alphasoldier on February 14, 2009, 02:14:52 am
Couldn't agree with you more Chibi.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Zoko on February 14, 2009, 07:04:51 am
Yeah, I agree with the people above me. I don't think the game deserves much criticism about it's voice acting, sure it was mostly just Jenna, but she did a pretty good job with it. I think that the cutscenes and story could use some improvement, they just don't necessarily need it.

And Alec, I think you might just be too stressed out right now, or not in a good mood or something. Maybe you should just relax before taking on something else. And we're not asking you to start making the sequel right now, we just want to see the story continue. All i'm hoping for is that you won't pull a Blizzard and wait twelve years before doing so.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: artstarr on February 14, 2009, 08:00:45 am
thanks chibi. i have to say that I'D LOVE A SEQUEL GAME  =)

this game has the look and feel of Ecco for Sega. i love the background, story, music, character, overall design...sequel plz    ;D
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Lenneth on February 14, 2009, 10:03:31 am
Some people here are treating the game really unfair, in my oppinion! How can you say the story is anything else than perfect, if someone put so much heart into it? Sure, there are some mysterys, that remain unexplained, but everything that's still open, is open in a good way, so people can fill out the holes with their own imagination. Also I don't with Li's characterisation, it wouldn't make much sense to tell his whole lifestory, because then he would have overshadowed Naija, since we don't know that much about her past, and it would be weird to know more about a partner-character than the main person, right? So it was pretty clever, storytelling-wise, to leave Li as he is. There's not really only one thing that needs to be improved about this game, everything felt right as it is. Audio and Visuals are breathtaking, the Story is really heartwarming and deep, but still doesn't force you to swallow too many impressions at once. Now about the voice acting: It's one of the best I've ever heard! Jenna's voice matches perfectly for Naija's personality, and there wasn't a single flaw in it. All of the emotions sounded really true. Another thing some people didn't seem to like, is how quick the relationship between Li and Naija developed, but just think of it from Naija's view: If you were alone for many years, and never met any other sentient being, would YOU waste time once you finally meet someone, you can spent your life with? Probably not, right? All in all we should really appreciate this piece of art , that Alec and Derek developed. After all those dissapointments from bigger game companys(mostly all games losing their charme and heart, and are merely devices for quick money) I lost all my hopes in the industry. But seeing that there's still someone outside there, making games with their personal feelings inside it, it gave me back my confidence in this still young media. And I'm really thankful to you for that^^
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Align on February 14, 2009, 01:15:43 pm
Aquaria is a unique story in the way that it's told, and this all relies on the player. There are some people out there who are too dense to look beyond what is presented to them to what it truly means. To fully get the meaning of some events, you have to look deeper. (ie: Naija finding Li symbolizes an end to Naija's constant loneliness, but some people would only see this as "oh wow she found a boyfrnd")
Considering how often Naija talks of being lonely, it's almost impossible to miss - but I don't see how that really changes anything.


Something came to mind though - as it wasn't until I was done with everything else (up to Sunken City) that I went and found Li, it seemed like some sort of climax, which might not have been the intention.

I personally think you crossed the line when you said: "Where I think Aquaria fell short was in the voice acting (Yes, I know, it was low budget, it just bothered me)", there was really nothing wrong with the voice acting and I think there wouldn't be anyone or anything that could do it any better.
Obviously, he disagrees. Opinions, hmm?
Quote
The way Jenna narrated everything almost perfectly to every emotion and timing. Not too overemotional and story was put in when needed.
I actually think Naija's voice was fine most of the time, but those small moments combine with the downright awkwardness of Mithalas script (and acting) for a... lessened experience, I guess.
Quote
Aquaria is still a game, there has to be gameplay, not scenes with interaction like the oh-so-lacking Kingdom Hearts.
Well, some sort of cutscene is necessary if the developers want to tell their own story rather than let the players make their own.

Holy wall of text, Batman.
How can you say the story is anything else than perfect, if someone put so much heart into it?
What does heart have to do with it? You have to rate by result, not effort.
Quote
Also I don't with Li's characterisation, it wouldn't make much sense to tell his whole lifestory, because then he would have overshadowed Naija
There's a middle ground between telling nothing and telling their entire life story. It's hard to feel for someone that you don't know.
Quote
There's not really only one thing that needs to be improved about this game
But there's always room for improvement, as any good artist will tell you.
Quote
Another thing some people didn't seem to like, is how quick the relationship between Li and Naija developed, but just think of it from Naija's view: If you were alone for many years, and never met any other sentient being, would YOU waste time once you finally meet someone, you can spent your life with?
Not to the point of kissing at first sight. But Naija has an excuse - she met him before, even if she doesn't clearly remember it. And it's still pretty awkward to watch, even if it's realistic.
Quote
All in all we should really appreciate this piece of art , that Alec and Derek developed.
And I do.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: delve on February 14, 2009, 03:03:51 pm
Aquaria is still a game, there has to be gameplay, not scenes with interaction like the oh-so-lacking Kingdom Hearts.
Well, some sort of cutscene is necessary if the developers want to tell their own story rather than let the players make their own.

If you want to make your own story then buy a sandbox game. I've gotten the impression that Saint's Row is decent. Oblivion is another option in a different theme.

Aquaria is a more traditional game of the sort that tells a story. A pretty good story imo, though that's entirely subjective. Half the point of Aquaria as I perceive it is to tell that story; allowing room for the player to make their own story would at best emasculate that intent.

The two aims are different and divergent. It's technically possible to do both, Oblivion makes a decent stab at that, but it requires a massive amount of content to pull off and because you have to allow a player off your story rails they'll almost invariably end up playing in the sandbox more than following your story, which leads (at least for me) to the feeling that the story was sort of tacked on at the end to satisfy a checklist item.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Align on February 14, 2009, 03:42:26 pm
Yeah. Hence why cutscenes of some sort are necessary.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alphasoldier on February 14, 2009, 05:35:55 pm
Actually, It was pretty good pulled off in Fallout 3, you had like dozens of different endings and dozens of different paths, which eventually, of course ended up in 1 story line with different outcomes.

But in Aquaria you only once have a choice of path... and further it's only exploring, so I have to give you that. None the less, that doesn't matter to me, the creators of the game are responsible for creating the story, and a damn good one, which Bit-blot has certainly done.

Not a while ago I found a rather interesting piece of dialog that was not used in the story, I'll post it here.

Code: [Select]
"Creature: Who goes there?"
"Naija: It... it is I, Naija."
"Creature: Naija... what a beautiful name."
"Naija: Beautiful?"
"Creature: Come closer, little Naija."
"Naija: ..."
"Naija: In the name of the Old Father! What kind of foul creature are you?"
"Nerhaji: Ha! Foul? I am Nerhaji! Once I was as mighty a God as any. Now reduced to this form... it is more than foul, it is sacrilege."
"Naija: What? Put me down!"
"Nerhaji: You are a defiant one, indeed. One I would have called a sinner, so long ago. One who would have been fed to me, as nothing more than a tasty morsel."
"Naija: *pain* Let... me... go!"
"Nerhaji: This pain you feel Naija, does it make you feel alive?"
"Naija: *pain* What...?"
"Nerhaji: Your bones could be crushed in an instant. Your spirit extinguished from this realm forever."
"Naija: *pain* ..."
"Nerhaji: You may very well be asking yourself, 'Why am I still alive?'"
"Nerhaji: The answer is simple."
"Nerhaji: It is by my grace that you are allowed to continue squirming in my mighty grasp."
"Nerhaji: For you see, Naija; I need something from you."
"Nerhaji: I require a gift, and it is a gift that even a frail mortal as yourself, can provide."
"Naija: *pain* What... do you want..."
"Nerhaji: Quite simply, Naija, I am old. I am tired."
"Nerhaji: I have spent an eternity in this place, longing to be free."
"Naija: *pain* What... makes you think... that I would free you..."
"Nerhaji: Ha! As if I would desire to rule in this dying age. No, Naija... I wish to be free from existence."
"Naija: You want to... die?"
"Nerhaji: What was truly me has long since died. All that remains is to free my spirit."
"Nerhaji: I will teach you the Song that will bind me to the void, once and for all."

Source: \scripts\maps\node_energygod.lua
For some reason I'm glad this wasn't in here. I may be very prejudging, but I don't think this would've come over right.
I'm just saying... the story is good, and looking at this text, you know the team here has put a lot of blood, sweat, tears, time and trouble into this.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Align on February 14, 2009, 06:56:21 pm
That's not quite what I meant; the player has a choice, yeah, but it's still developer-made content, rather than stories made from nothing but the players own experience.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Zoko on February 14, 2009, 10:54:25 pm
"Nerhaji: Ha! Foul? I am Nerhaji! Once I was as mighty a God as any. Now reduced to this form... it is more than foul, it is sacrilege."
"Naija: What? Put me down!"
"Nerhaji: You are a defiant one, indeed. One I would have called a sinner, so long ago. One who would have been fed to me, as nothing more than a tasty morsel."

Hmm ,looks like this is what later became Mithala (or at least a part of his backstory) This would have been interesting to see in the game, although it's basically:
-I was a god but now im not
-I can kill you but i wont cause i want you to kill me
The conflicting points of this are that A): Even the Creator couldn't kill Naija by merely holding her, I don't see why this 'Nerhaji' would, especially since he seems to be stripped of his godlyness. B): It would make a pretty uninteresting boss fight, especially since this looks like it was to be the energy god, which is the first boss you fight

However this would have still been a great addition to the game, i'm picturing a long, winding passage filled with all sorts of deadly things, leading down to a dark cave, the final resting place of a long forgotten, once powerful creature. I think I would have preferred to get spirit form this way instead of the way you get it in the game. (I was pretty unhappy with those ghost-priest things, it just didn't seem to fit in with everything else.)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alphasoldier on February 15, 2009, 12:33:35 am
The 'once have a choice of path' I meant that you could get Beast or Nature form first, from there... there will only be one path.

And Zoko, I sort of agree with you, it would have... in a different way, been a great addition to this game, but that would be when the whole story would be different. Naija would way sooner get in to a spiral of dementia, as she calls it. Would you want to live in a world where gods want to kill themselves?
It would be a whole new look at the game, which wouldn't fit in.
Like I said before, the story is solid, and thought about. I don't mind that I need to go in one path, I can go back whenever I want.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: silverflagon on February 15, 2009, 01:14:33 am
Whatever's best for you - do it, Alec. But once you've replenished your energy stores, remember those who played Aquaria devoutly, hanging onto Naija's every word and reveling in the beauty of the game. Those are the people who await the sequel. Thank you for the hope of a return to the waters ...  :)

I am quite willing to wait Alec, but please do create a sequel sometime in the next 2 or 3 years pretty please.. There will always be some who don't like games but most of us love it even players that haven't visited this forum they are out there waiting and hoping.

I haven't forgotten what I told you you know.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Nava on February 15, 2009, 01:41:39 am
I am quite willing to wait Alec, but please do create a sequel sometime in the next 2 or 3 years pretty please..

Heh, it took 2 years to make the first one  :P
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: silverflagon on February 15, 2009, 02:27:46 am
Well start to make it then Chrissy lol I don't mind waiting so long as there is something to wait for and no other game has captured me like this one has and I so want to start a version that I haven't played before.

I understand that Alex needs to rest from it who wouldn't :o
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Zoko on February 15, 2009, 02:40:36 am
Naija would way sooner get in to a spiral of dementia, as she calls it. Would you want to live in a world where gods want to kill themselves? It would be a whole new look at the game, which wouldn't fit in.

It wouldn't fit in with the game as it is now, but i'm sure Derek and Alec could have made it fit in if they included it in the first place. Which wouldn't make it less or more perfect, just perfect in a different way. I could imagine having that in the game instead of the priests, and then us going "What? Undead priests? No, that would never work."
I am quite willing to wait Alec, but please do create a sequel sometime in the next 2 or 3 years pretty please..

Maybe at least start on a sequel in the next 2 or 3 years.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: delve on February 15, 2009, 04:08:06 am
Hmm ,looks like this is what later became Mithala (or at least a part of his backstory) This would have been interesting to see in the game, although it's basically:
-I was a god but now im not
-I can kill you but i wont cause i want you to kill me

Actually, this is sort of in there. Parts of it as Mithalas' backstory yes. But also, have you forgotten that the energy god essentially gives you the song to slay him? When you enter the temple the statue teaches it to you. Of course there's the obligatory follow the leader chase with the glowing light which triggers a fireball dodging 'fight', but even then you're pretty much given the notes required to win. The whole sequence drips with 'use this to destroy me,' especially with that bit of discarded dialogue exposed. Even more to the point, you are required to use energy form to defeat the god-boss, the very form that the statue of said god teaches you before you're allowed into the rest of the temple. Oh, it made it into the game alright, they just made it more subtle. I suspect if that scene had made it into the game it would have felt a lot more like being hit over the head with a hammer, and probably wouldn't have played out as well.

I was pretty unhappy with those ghost-priest things, it just didn't seem to fit in with everything else.

I can agree with that. Those bosses felt like a 'we need a boss for this form, quick think of something.' I'm sure they weren't and the whole spirit business is hinted at in other parts of Mithalas dialogues, but it just felt a bit forced to me.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Zoko on February 15, 2009, 04:21:13 am
Good point. Although I didn't consider the statue of the god to be an incarnation of the god himself, I've always thought of that part as a testing chamber for the Krotites  to determine if they deserve to wield fireball-hurling powers. I think maybe the statue was infused with the god's power and is always supposed to give you that test. Also, you don't use your energy powers to kill the god directly, you use them to activate the laser-thingy (although, that was probably made with his power too). Although I don't see a reason for that thing to be there, besides providing Naija with a way to kill the god. I don't think any of the Krotites would have tried to use it on him. Oh well, minor inconsistency. One of the challenges of creating a game based on exploration is making a world created solely for the player appear like it isn't.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: delve on February 15, 2009, 04:26:46 am
Also, you don't use your energy powers to kill the god directly, you use them to activate the laser-thingy (although, that was probably made with his power too). Although I don't see a reason for that thing to be there, besides providing Naija with a way to kill the god. I don't think any of the Krotites would have tried to use it on him. Oh well, minor inconsistency. One of the challenges of creating a game based on exploration is making a world created solely for the player appear like it isn't.

Ignore the man behind the curtain. :)

You're right about using the pearl rather than direct fire, and yet you have to use energy bolts to charge the pearl so in the end I think it's the same.
Your interpretation of the statue is also a good point, I've always thought of it (at least after I finished the temple the first time) as being a manifestation of the god himself. Although I don't think it's ever mentioned that the Krotites are singers, and the fact that you can't sing in energy form further suggests that they aren't. Leaving me to question the use of song in a Krotite testing ground. :)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Zoko on February 15, 2009, 04:46:42 am
Well remember, you don't actually become a Krotite when in energy form, you just harness their fireball-hurling powers. And the verse does flow through most living things. Just because most living things you meet can't sing doesn't mean that you have to be specially designated a singer. Keep in mind that most things you meet are below your level of intelligence. The things that are (presumably) equal or above can sing. Examples are: Mother Nature, Erullians, Whale(I'm pretty sure he's smarter than your average fishy) Simon (he has enough brains to obtain a third cooking slot, wh knows what else he can do).
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: delve on February 15, 2009, 04:57:04 am
True, but I don't recall song ever being mentioned as being a significant part of any of the other races. Even about Mithalans. The opposite side of the coin you propose is that anyone can sing, but only a few people can wield power with it. Some people are natural singers and can touch your soul with it, some like me can't even keep the same tone through an entire whole note.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Zoko on February 15, 2009, 05:13:06 am
[qu
True, but I don't recall song ever being mentioned as being a significant part of any of the other races.
Well, the Creator does say that the verse flows through all he made, but we can only guess to how much of an impact it had on the other races. Basically the only fact here is that it's never not been mentioned as being a significant part of the other civilizations.

The opposite side of the coin you propose is that anyone can sing, but only a few people can wield power with it. Some people are natural singers and can touch your soul with it, some like me can't even keep the same tone through an entire whole note.

Don't worry, I can't sing either  ;) But yeah, that's what I'm saying. I mean they have to access their power somehow, and most of the interaction you do is through song, so my conclusion is that that's the way they did it too.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alphasoldier on February 15, 2009, 12:05:22 pm
It wouldn't fit in with the game as it is now, but i'm sure Derek and Alec could have made it fit in if they included it in the first place. Which wouldn't make it less or more perfect, just perfect in a different way. I could imagine having that in the game instead of the priests, and then us going "What? Undead priests? No, that would never work."
That's what it's all about, isn't it? It wouldn't fit in the game as it is now, which means the whole game should have been changed, which wouldn't work.
Though, the priests, I do admit, that SOME narration of Naija would've been nice, would make them look more important. Something like, "As I explored deeply through the ruins of Mithalas I found a secret passage... I wonder where it would lead me."
And after the battle also a bit more over the story of the priests who committed "heresy" themselves instead of only the form you just got. But... the game is finished now and looks good as is. =p
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Xiagan on February 15, 2009, 05:26:01 pm
How dare you to post a six page discussion while I'm gone? Can you imagine how long I had to read? ;)

Good stories always need the reader/player to put a part from him/her in it through interacting with it (Imagination, fantasy, ...).
Not everyone is able to do so in the way the creators intended and that means that not everybody is able to experience what the authors/makers wanted them to to experience.

Yeah, its not about criticism, its more about making something intensely personal that costs years of your life and much personal strain and then realizing that it wasn't worth it.
(emphasis added)

It'd be ignorant to say that it was totally worth it without knowing what you put in, but I, for one, am glad that you were able/willingly to do so. :)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: artstarr on February 15, 2009, 08:43:21 pm
I bet he's not kidding either. :) Humans are monkeys. Maybe you get to play as Li.
Spoiler Post:
Actually, I'd guess you'd play as Lucien, the kid you see flying away at the end, which would be a half monkey.

I actually wonder what happened to Li though, I mean, you see Naija in the crystal on the main screen, that's what happened to her, but what about Li? Did he die of old age? Or did he drown because Naija wasn't around anymore?


LoL humans are monkeys. heck yes. OR what if naija could have a pet sea monkey that swims around with her. ORRRR you could choose to be naija or the sea monkey.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: silverflagon on February 16, 2009, 12:58:02 am
Alpha lol perhaps I shouldn't of jokingly told them to post like mad lol


And yes we are all monkey still, only some are still swinging through the trees inside their tiny minds  ::)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Grahf on February 16, 2009, 02:14:14 am
"All this dog and pony, we're still monkeys the whole time
We could not help from flinging shit in our modern suits and ties"

-Modest mouse.

;-)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alphasoldier on February 16, 2009, 05:46:13 pm
That small piece of text confuses me, especially the 'all this dog and pony' part.

And well, at least we gave Xiagan something to do when he returned.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Chibi on February 16, 2009, 06:39:04 pm
I think the general idea of the quote is applying lipstick to a pig, and "dog and pony" means the facade of sophistication over a crude interior.  :) Just MO.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: silverflagon on February 16, 2009, 07:18:58 pm
I think the general idea of the quote is applying lipstick to a pig, and "dog and pony" means the facade of sophistication over a crude interior.  :) Just MO.
Exactly :D
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: inkblob on February 17, 2009, 05:24:01 am
"All this dog and pony, we're still monkeys the whole time
We could not help from flinging shit in our modern suits and ties"

-Modest mouse.

;-)

there's a modest mouse song about the pony express that I've had no luck thumping up.  they are challenging, amazing and not easy on the pallette.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Grahf on February 17, 2009, 07:46:26 pm
there's a modest mouse song about the pony express that I've had no luck thumping up.  they are challenging, amazing and not easy on the pallette.

They're definitely one of my favorite bands. I first heard them with "Good news for people who love bad news" which is generally seen as one of their more main stream albums. It was a nice way of easing into them, had I heard anything off of "Lonesome Crowded West" Or "Sad Sappy Sucker" I probably would of been turned off to the music.

Once you get used to the sound though and discover the lyrics the band really sets itself apart from its peers.

As for a pony express song, I've got no clue. I've got all of their released albums, but it might of been on some obscure EP or a live show recording. A few songs on Lonesome Crowded West seem like they'd be era appropriate for that but none really touch on that specific topic. /shrug
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: inkblob on February 18, 2009, 03:44:10 am
looking at my folder of select MM songs it would appear that my fav album would be 'Building Something out of Nothing'   
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Chibi on February 18, 2009, 05:46:10 am
Very Zen.  ;)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: artstarr on February 21, 2009, 04:39:40 am
"All this dog and pony, we're still monkeys the whole time
We could not help from flinging shit in our modern suits and ties"

-Modest mouse.

;-)

MM discussion? awesome!!! i have all MM's albums. i have no idea which album is my fave or even which song is my fave.

possibly 3 inch horses, 2 faced monsters. or maybe grey ice water

(http://i39.tinypic.com/2zjc4l3.jpg)

I get up just about noon
My head sends a message for me
to reach for my shoes and then walk
Gotta go to work, gotta go to work, gotta have a job...

Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: inkblob on February 21, 2009, 04:46:37 am
freakin I love Wolf Parade. half of them are from my city, or at least the hills outside my city. had the pleasure of seeing them once but I'm almost thinking that Tapes N' Tapes has taken the torch for the bombastic swampy stomp rawk they had going on their first couple of releases.  that would be an upsettingly good show, them and MM...  :)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: FaeDyne on February 21, 2009, 05:29:31 am
MM discussion? awesome!!!
Could you maybe take that to another thread if it's going to continue? I know this discussion of a sequel is probably mostly over, but I'm interested in a sequel and don't want to keep coming in here thinking there's discussion about a sequel if there isn't.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: inkblob on February 21, 2009, 05:50:09 am
and here's me checking to see if the modest mouse conversation was being added to  ::)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: ilGaspa on February 26, 2009, 03:19:10 pm
Yeah, its not about criticism, its more about making something intensely personal that costs years of your life and much personal strain and then realizing that it wasn't worth it.

(sorry for the bad english)

May I ask you why you say it wasn't worth it..? I think that with Aquaria you and Derek created a masterpiece, one of the things a person should look back to and think "Look at what I've been able to do"... I would be proud if a day I'll ever be able to do something as great as what you done creating Aquaria... so why aren't you?

And speaking of the sequel..well, Aquaria it's your story, only you can decide if it has to go on or if it ends there :) As I said, I think it's a masterpiece..the ending left me sad, but I guess that just like life not all things are destined to end happily..still I'd love to know what will be of Naija, trapped inside that crystal.. If I can ask you, should you a day decide definitely that Aquaria ends there, would you tell us what you meant to say with the ending?
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alec on March 01, 2009, 07:30:59 pm
I don't know, it was worth it to me personally on some level, but not as much as I wanted it to be.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Archeus on March 06, 2009, 04:29:28 am
I don't know, it was worth it to me personally on some level, but not as much as I wanted it to be.

Hmm, I guess I could see it your way. You really didn't think you accomplished much? Was it due to the numbers of sales? Probably not, but let me tell ya something bro. A good number of the gamers nowadays (sorry if this is a generalization) are a bit more into the violence games (which is ok, but there should be a nice balance) than deep thought story telling games like Aquaria. And that's a sad observation(fact?) in my opinion.

 At first glance this game "may" look a bit kiddish, but it really isn't. It talks about life. It talks about peoples mistakes and the outcome of them. This game really has a deep deep level of thinking if you sit down and think about it. And to me that's a rare gem in the swamp infested game industry these days.

You know I may be spinning wheel or rehashing things many have said. But for what its worth, you guys did great with this game. I would gladly take it over any of the first person shooters coming out there.

My question to you overall is: What "is" worth it? :)

Oh and good luck with those other games i've read about. I'll keep an eye out for them. :D

Mt two cents.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: silverflagon on March 07, 2009, 07:16:10 pm
I don't know, it was worth it to me personally on some level, but not as much as I wanted it to be.

Hmm, I guess I could see it your way. You really didn't think you accomplished much? Was it due to the numbers of sales? Probably not, but let me tell ya something bro. A good number of the gamers nowadays (sorry if this is a generalization) are a bit more into the violence games (which is ok, but there should be a nice balance) than deep thought story telling games like Aquaria. And that's a sad observation(fact?) in my opinion.

 At first glance this game "may" look a bit kiddish, but it really isn't. It talks about life. It talks about peoples mistakes and the outcome of them. This game really has a deep deep level of thinking if you sit down and think about it. And to me that's a rare gem in the swamp infested game industry these days.

You know I may be spinning wheel or rehashing things many have said. But for what its worth, you guys did great with this game. I would gladly take it over any of the first person shooters coming out there.

My question to you overall is: What "is" worth it? :)

Oh and good luck with those other games i've read about. I'll keep an eye out for them. :D

Mt two cents.
I strongly second this opinion Alec, your game is awesome in many ways and I am finding that so I haven't found a fighting game that pleases me even half as much as Aquaria.  (That is my opinion only so please no counter arguments please)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Zoko on March 11, 2009, 05:28:32 am
Good one Archeus, you've really made some good points. Alec's been going 'it won't really be worth it' but hasn't specified what worth it really is. Whats up, Alec?
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Nightmareshadow on March 15, 2009, 04:50:23 am
I don't know, it was worth it to me personally on some level, but not as much as I wanted it to be.

Hmm, I guess I could see it your way. You really didn't think you accomplished much? Was it due to the numbers of sales? Probably not, but let me tell ya something bro. A good number of the gamers nowadays (sorry if this is a generalization) are a bit more into the violence games (which is ok, but there should be a nice balance) than deep thought story telling games like Aquaria. And that's a sad observation(fact?) in my opinion.

 At first glance this game "may" look a bit kiddish, but it really isn't. It talks about life. It talks about peoples mistakes and the outcome of them. This game really has a deep deep level of thinking if you sit down and think about it. And to me that's a rare gem in the swamp infested game industry these days.

You know I may be spinning wheel or rehashing things many have said. But for what its worth, you guys did great with this game. I would gladly take it over any of the first person shooters coming out there.

My question to you overall is: What "is" worth it? :)

Oh and good luck with those other games i've read about. I'll keep an eye out for them. :D

Mt two cents.
I've gotta agree here.

Aquaria is something truly unique, stunningly beautiful and amazingly haunting...sadly most gamers won't even budge from their recliners if a game doesn't have half a ton of blood, and twice as many curses...i'll be honest, when i first saw Aquaria, i thought "Hmm...that's kinda neat..."  Figured i'd pick it up, see what it was about.  Never expected it to be...so stunning.  In f act, it's revitalized my faith in Indie games.  Even if it wasn't as good financially as it could be, Aquaria is something well worth exploring.  TIm Schaffers Psychonauts was disturbing, fantastic, and amazingly funny...it sold incredibly poorly, but he still hopes to make a sequel.  I guess what my long spiel is trying to say, to Alec, Derek, and all fans, is that we shouldn't be swayed by sales numbers, or any of that.  You put your heart into the game, and it's one of the best i've ever played.  I'd be really disappointed if a sequel never came...I'm keeping the faith for a sequel.  If you didn't think you'd accomplished much, just look at the forums...how many thousands of us are waiting for sequel?  Those are all lives you touched(okay, i'll stop before i get sappy here.)

Side note to Alec, I'm keeping tabs on your work.  Heroes and Villains is neat and all(not so interested because i lack an iphone), but i'm really interested in seeing where you might go with Marion.  You've got a real talent for storytelling.  Keep at it.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Chibi on March 15, 2009, 06:01:43 am
Couldn't agree with you more - Aquaria touched me, and a sequel would simply make my [insert interminably long period of time here].  :)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Nightmareshadow on March 15, 2009, 09:30:24 am
Month?  Try decade(seriously, i'd wait ten years for a sequel if i had too...worked for Valkyrie profile)

An Aquaria sequel...might just give me a heart attack(the good kind)

Derek seems to be interested in making one, even if Alec is a little hesitant...do you think it could work without Alec?

It's hard for me to imagine Aquaria being Aquaria without Alec's music, even with Derek's fantastic art.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Xiagan on March 15, 2009, 05:08:26 pm
Derek seems to be interested in making one, even if Alec is a little hesitant...do you think it could work without Alec?
Where do you have that from? Atm Alec is the one still involved and supporting the game.

btw, Valkyrie? Like, Septerra Core?
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Zoko on March 15, 2009, 09:01:30 pm
If Alec and Derek are to make a sequel it would have to be after Heroes and Villains, after Marian, and after he gets all his other projects out of the way. And of course all the legal crap involved with it. And I would imagine that by the time he gets finished with all that he'd be pretty worn-out. And the last thing he needs is a bunch of screaming fans demanding that he do more work. I think we should let Alec take a break, because after all, he deserves it. If he started working on a sequel right away he won't be able to put all his effort into it (and possibly wouldn't want to) which results in a worse game, which is bad for all. I would rather he made the game later and to it's full capacity, because a game like Aquaria deserves a good sequel.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Xiagan on March 15, 2009, 10:29:17 pm
Alec doesn't take breaks, he takes new (awesome) projects and sugarcoat them as breaks.  ;D
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Nava on March 15, 2009, 10:53:39 pm
we shouldn't be swayed by sales numbers, or any of that.  You put your heart into the game, and it's one of the best i've ever played.  I'd be really disappointed if a sequel never came...I'm keeping the faith for a sequel.  If you didn't think you'd accomplished much, just look at the forums...how many thousands of us are waiting for sequel?  Those are all lives you touched

When Alec talks about whether or not it was "worth it," he's not talking about sales at all. Like you said, he put his heart into it. Making Aquaria was an extremely draining process for him on a personal level, and I think there are a lot of bad memories associated with that time (good memories as well,  of course, and lots of learning experiences) that make him reluctant to volunteer himself for it doing it all again. He recognizes and appreciates that there are many fans eager to learn the rest of the story... the decision to make a sequel or not isn't hinging on how many fans ask for it, he knows that the demand is there. It's just personal stuff, guys. Alec is the sort of person who will not commit to a project unless he knows he can put all his passion toward it from start to finish; given the emotional connections that were made during the making and release of Aquaria, I don't think he's yet at a point where he can commit that much energy and know that he will come out alright on the other side.
I'd love to see the sequel too, but I think we have to be patient here and respect his decisions and try to understand his hesitance against just gung-ho-ing it.  :)

Derek seems to be interested in making one, even if Alec is a little hesitant...do you think it could work without Alec?
They are both "interested," of course, it's their baby. But there are other factors that limit the realistic chances of it happening. Both Alec and Derek are really busy and committed to their current projects and other ideas swirling in their heads. But taking a "mental time-out" from one project to complete something entirely different is definitely beneficial for motivation, I find.  ^-^

Alec doesn't take breaks, he takes new (awesome) projects and sugarcoat them as breaks.  ;D
A greater truth has not been spoken.   ;)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Chibi on March 16, 2009, 03:13:28 am
Alec doesn't take breaks, he takes new (awesome) projects and sugarcoat them as breaks.  ;D
A greater truth has not been spoken.   ;)

Indeed not - who would of thought that Alec could work on Paper Moon and Heroes & Villains after the labor of love that is Aquaria? [Admittedly, they are small projects compared to Aquaria, but they still require work.]
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Nightmareshadow on March 16, 2009, 06:56:59 am
If Alec and Derek are to make a sequel it would have to be after Heroes and Villains, after Marian, and after he gets all his other projects out of the way. And of course all the legal crap involved with it. And I would imagine that by the time he gets finished with all that he'd be pretty worn-out. And the last thing he needs is a bunch of screaming fans demanding that he do more work. I think we should let Alec take a break, because after all, he deserves it. If he started working on a sequel right away he won't be able to put all his effort into it (and possibly wouldn't want to) which results in a worse game, which is bad for all. I would rather he made the game later and to it's full capacity, because a game like Aquaria deserves a good sequel.

You make a good point.  I understand the burnt out feeling many people feel after completing a huge project, and wondering if everything they did was really worth it to them, all the stress and time they put into it.  I'm just concerned because Alec seems a little down, and seems down on the idea of a sequel.  I 'm a worrier, I just can't help it, but hey, I'd be more than willing to wait five or ten years for a sequel...if it's given the same heart as the original. 

A little work hiatus to clear your head sometimes makes the next project all the sweeter.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alec on March 16, 2009, 10:23:43 am
I'm going to need an actual break sometime soon.

I haven't taken a week off in like 3 years. Its starting to get to me in a big way.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Zam on March 16, 2009, 05:00:35 pm
When you take a break, you should go traveling.


somewhere with lots of sun, and bikini's
(http://www.farorbit.com/galleries/2001_Collection/hawai.jpg)

Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Alec on March 16, 2009, 06:39:08 pm
I'm thinking this summer... I'll probably try to just chill.

Read a lot... swim a lot... nap a lot... make out a lot...

Maybe not get a lot of games done.
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Chibi on March 16, 2009, 06:40:52 pm
I'm thinking this summer... I'll probably try to just chill.

Read a lot... swim a lot... nap a lot... make out a lot...

Maybe not get a lot of games done.
Tear your eyes from the glowing pearls, Alec!  ;) That sounds like a great idea.  :)
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Nava on March 16, 2009, 07:25:09 pm
I'm thinking this summer... I'll probably try to just chill.

Read a lot... swim a lot... nap a lot... make out a lot...

Maybe not get a lot of games done.

 :o
I like this. Very much.

can I come toooooooooo?
Title: Re: So whens the sequel? :p
Post by: Davin on April 11, 2009, 12:58:15 pm
I'm thinking this summer... I'll probably try to just chill.

Read a lot... swim a lot... nap a lot... make out a lot...

Maybe not get a lot of games done.

Yeah man, just take it easy. All of us looking forward to something more in the future obviously have a vested and biased interest, but seriously, personal time comes first. Doesn't matter whether it's game development or something else, them brain meats overheat if you're not too careful.

As someone who appreciates both Aquaria and what glimpses of your personal vision you've let slip on these forums, I highly encourage you to just distance yourself from all this stuff and get in tune with your muse.  Run with it, wherever it leads you, even if it means we won't see a sequel for awhile...or ever. I've rather see what you have to offer when you can get into it, and not something that you have to force out of yourself.