Bit Blot Forum
Aquaria => General => Topic started by: Kevin on July 26, 2007, 05:38:09 pm
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Hey guys,
I'm new to this forum and actually just came across Aquaria while browsing the IGF website. Anyways, great game you got here, the screenshots look absolutely gorgeous. I'm really looking forward to a release.
Just one question - is there any word from the devs if they consider Steam for distribution? There are so many great indie games on Steam lately and it would be really cool to see Aquaria there.
Keep up the great work!
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We've talked to Valve, but haven't gotten too far along in the conversation yet - just because we're really busy atm.
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Can't we download it from the website in exange of some US$?
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Yep. :)
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So wait are you saying that We can now download it off the website? Where?
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Har de har.
When the game is done, you'll be able to buy it from our site.
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Har de har.
When the game is done, you'll be able to buy it from our site.
Isn't the benefit of using Steam, that it provides a good DRM? I'd hate to see you loose money from this wonderful product, because someone created a torrent for it. :(
Seeing the quality of your work, I'd personally like to see that it sells well and that people won't be able to play it for free, i.e. stealing it, so you're able to make more of your ideas come true for us. :) I bet you've got some more cooking ;)
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I think the people who want to support it, will support it.
We'll deal with steam when we can.
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I hate Steam and loathe Valve for it. I won't bother getting into the industry and consumer philosophy that spawns that, and most people won't care enough to look past the surface of the situation anyway, but any game not on Steam is a happy point in Que's book. I say no to games I don't own, that I don't have a hard copy of, that I can't use the way I want, that are tied to the internet and/or other overarching programs, and that are sold to me at the same price as an actual retail unit despite all the money the online distributor saves avoiding those complications on their end. They don't give a @$#! about you as a customer.
Anyway, Stardock is an excellent example of online distribution done right - you can use their program to buy games, download them, update them, and launch them... but you don't have to if that isn't your deal. Stardock Central doesn't have to be open for the game to run, you don't have to be connected to the internet, and not only can you can get a download version of the game by itself (for *less*), you can get the download version of the game right away while the hard copy is shipped to you in the mail! Even better, for Galactic Civilizations II, Stardock allows you to download the video tutorials and such before the rest of the main game content, which means you can actually watch the tutorials while you wait for the rest of your game to come down the pipeline. That's a thing of beauty, friends.
Just say no to Steam.
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"My name is Quemaqua..."
\
(http://www.agileproductdesign.com/blog/images/inigo.jpg)
Steam killed your father? :)
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Haha, Alec, I gotta say, I share Peequod's hatred of steam. ;)
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I gather that Steam has by far the largest userbase relative to other digital distribution services, and selling it via Steam doesn't necessarily prohibit them from selling both physical and downloadable copies from their own website, so if Steam gives them a much wider audience then - regardless of what you think of it - it'd still be a good move.
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I also agree that using steam would be a good idea mainly the wide range of people and the stats says there are about 3,023,137 unique players per month
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Haha, Alec, I gotta say, I share Peequod's hatred of steam. ;)
count me in too...
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May I also point out that a game being distributed via Steam does not mean that the game is completely tied to Steam. Both Uplink and Darwinia are distributed via Steam (among other distribution methods). In both cases, the executables and associated data files can be run without Steam. DEFCON is also distributed via Steam and can be run without Steam, though Steam does have to be run once a month or so to renew the auth key (something that does not happen with the non-Steam version). I would also like to point out that all three of IV's games cost about the same -- or are cheaper -- on Steam than they are when bought directly from IV. In the end, the amount of copy-protection used in Steam games seems to be largely dependent upon the developer. The same is true about the price of the games.
Furthermore, from the perspective of a game developer, Steam must look pretty attractive. Steam has a huge user base compared to the distribution channels open to most indy developers. Introversion released Darwinia in April or May of 2005, then released it on Steam in December of the same year. In the first week of distribution via Steam, Darwinia sold more copies than it had since the initial release. So, Steam is quite good for small / independent developers.
I'm sorry that Steam killed your father, but there are a lot of good reasons for small developers to use Steam.
xander
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Actually...
(http://www.starwarsdotcom.com/star_wars/wallpaper/vader2_800_600.jpg)
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If Steam were available for Mac, I'd be opposed to using it on an ideological basis (it's not, so I'm opposed to it on a "my computer can't run it" basis). But, like other DRM systems, I have no problem with it being used as long as there are other options. Generally, the more distribution channels, the better, for both producer and consumer.
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I certainly never meant to imply that Steam wouldn't be extremely attractive to developers. Obviously it *is*, which is why so many of them use it. I just can't stand it as a program and ideological icon. Would it make sense for Aquaria to be released on Steam? Absolutely. But that's the problem - it keeps making sense to many people, more consumers and developers keep jumping on board, and because of that we're going to continue to see an increased movement toward DRM-laden idiocy, toward punishing the consumer and restricting access, toward being forced into internet ties to do things like repeatedly renew authorization keys, etc. This doesn't bother many people, but I say it should. It's easy to pass me off as a naysayer with a chip on his shoulder, but I find this to be a single part of a much bigger movement, and I don't think it's going to do the end-user any favors at the end of the day.
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Steam is tied to the internet due to al lot of game piracy these days. If it weren't for thousends of people illegally downloading games this kind of measures would'nt be had to taken. And you only need internet on steam to install the game you want. After that you can go in offline mode, and you can have no internet connection at all after that. Also it's a online distribution program and if I was controlling security I would have chosen for maximum security, internet accounts is one of the best security's these days.
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Dodomaster: The aim of the developer is to maximise sales, not to minimise piracy. However good your DRM is (it'll probably be cracked eventually), if it drives away legit consumers you're up effluent river.
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I certainly never meant to imply that Steam wouldn't be extremely attractive to developers. Obviously it *is*, which is why so many of them use it. I just can't stand it as a program and ideological icon. Would it make sense for Aquaria to be released on Steam? Absolutely. But that's the problem - it keeps making sense to many people, more consumers and developers keep jumping on board, and because of that we're going to continue to see an increased movement toward DRM-laden idiocy, toward punishing the consumer and restricting access, toward being forced into internet ties to do things like repeatedly renew authorization keys, etc. This doesn't bother many people, but I say it should. It's easy to pass me off as a naysayer with a chip on his shoulder, but I find this to be a single part of a much bigger movement, and I don't think it's going to do the end-user any favors at the end of the day.
Steam != DRM. It is quite possible for developers to release games on Steam without DRM. Darwinia is a prime example. Your continued insistence that Steam == DRM belies an ignorance of what it is that Steam does, and what developers are capable of doing with Steam.
xander
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As far as Aquaria goes, obviously we'll have it on Steam if Valve'll have us. It'll be a great way for us to reach more people, maybe make a better name for indie games and all that good stuff.
Whether or not it has DRM doesn't really matter to me personally. But I'm not the kind of person who worries too much if companies are spying on me. If they steal my homemade porn off my computer, it'll probably just turn me on.
If it does end up having DRM for some reason, people can look up Aquaria, find it on our site, buy our version and thereby give us more money. Yay!
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Yay!
+1.
My bet is that Aquaria will function much the way Darwinia does, anyway - as a standalone program that's merely distributed by Steam - in which case people concerned about DRM can stop their moaning.
Also, there will be a physical version, won't there? Pretty please?
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Also, there will be a physical version, won't there? Pretty please?
We want there to be!
But it has to be awesome.
I just got my physical copy of Mr Robot, and was a bit disappointed that it was just a DVD case + CD. (albeit with a nice label) I was expecting at least as cool instruction manual, if not a poster.
For Aquaria, I'd want there to be a soundtrack CD, a crazy Derek Yu art poster, manual, maybe some kind of inflatable plushie. (??) Whatever we can do that is awesome and is still affordable.
But we probably won't start to look into how realistic that is until after the game is done.
We did make some mock up manuals for the IGF that were pretty sweet. (they were done as if they were beat up NES game manual, with fake tearing on the cover) It was kinda pricey. I think Derek might still have some, maybe he can upload some shots for kicks? ;)
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Also talked at one point about packaging in some kind of tin. (maybe like the FF12 collector's edition?) That would be uber sweet...
*siiigh*
Must. Finish. Game. First.
:'(
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Steam != DRM. It is quite possible for developers to release games on Steam without DRM. Darwinia is a prime example. Your continued insistence that Steam == DRM belies an ignorance of what it is that Steam does, and what developers are capable of doing with Steam.
And your comments bely your ignorance of all the rights you're slowly giving up. I'm well aware of what Steam is capable of, and I'm also well aware of the moves it's helping the industry make. I never said that Steam is strictly a form of DRM, I said it's a crappy service that restricts the use of many of its products which would otherwise be free of said restrictions if the product were purchased elsewhere. I won't even get into the numerous problems the program has caused me in my time with it, because that would obviously be a waste of my time. I've said all I need to, I have no desire to say any more.
Case in point, I agree wholeheartedly with Alec. I was a little disappointed with my copy of Mr. Robot as well, mostly just because I adore Moonpod and want more of their crap to hang on my wall. I reviewed Starscape and interviewed the guys for the site I wrote for at the time, and I'd have even paid extra for a few added goodies inside the package.
I hope you guys can get a nice retail setup going for Aquaria. Being a gigantic nerd, I can say without hesitation that a soundtrack CD and Derek art poster would just make me horny. And maybe you could ship it with a PSP port of Eternal Daughter and I'm O.K.!
... hey, it was worth a try.
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shots would be nice, tho if the manual price is a problem, just make a crappy version and a good version. crappy goes with the regular edition and good goes with the holy shit version (and you can get that plushy in there too ill bet ) for 5-10USD more then the reg ;). makes sense oui?
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Also talked at one point about packaging in some kind of tin. (maybe like the FF12 collector's edition?) That would be uber sweet...
*siiigh*
Must. Finish. Game. First.
:'(
just like ff12 and many other games these days (bioshock and a few others come with toys), you should look into packages
ex.
reg. edit. 20usd (more for shipping and manual if its hardcopy)
special edit. 30usd (its hardcopy comes with the tin case and cd with dev drawings/music. also the tin looks just like the casing on the regular edition's cover)
"Aquatic" or whatever else edition 40usd(people pay 40usd normaly anyways) (same as last but different casing art and comes with poster and toy?)
im not a marketing guy and i dont know if the pricing is right for the extra stuff, but that would be how a mainstream company would do it. Why not see if people will preorder the extra packages before you start buying it?
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Interesting suggestion/application there!
That should be discussed in a new topic though.
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I also agree that using steam would be a good idea mainly the wide range of people and the stats says there are about 3,023,137 unique players per month
Yeah, and the total amount of unique Steam-users is even higher because it consists of all Halflife2 players and then some, because of the activation through Steam of Valve's games. More than enough potential customers I'd say, although those people tend to be FPS loving freaks and not so much casual or indie game lovers, but still ...
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And your comments bely your ignorance of all the rights you're slowly giving up. I'm well aware of what Steam is capable of, and I'm also well aware of the moves it's helping the industry make. I never said that Steam is strictly a form of DRM, I said it's a crappy service that restricts the use of many of its products which would otherwise be free of said restrictions if the product were purchased elsewhere. I won't even get into the numerous problems the program has caused me in my time with it, because that would obviously be a waste of my time. I've said all I need to, I have no desire to say any more.
Heh, I hate to say it...but Quemaqua, you're a naysayer with a chip on your shoulder!
I see Steam as the logical polar opposite to traditional DRM- purchasing a product on Steam gives you the right to install it on other computers, it gives you the right to download it as many times as you please, the right to back up your data to cd/dvd/hdd, whatever happens, as the purchase is tied explicitly to your account. There are also less obvious rights, such as that which Valve has said from day 1; if ever the Steam medium needs to be shutdown (though judging by their remarkable success, this is very, very unlikely) they have 1 routine to run and all of your applications become immediately unlocked from the Steam account.
So, I fail to see in what form Steam is restricting my rights? Sounds like the rhetoric of a liberalist biting his own tail to me. Or a prospective pirate.
Granted, Steam used to cause many, many problems, and those new to the medium can't appreciate some of the turmoil we all went through in its first 2 years of implementation...but I'd have to say in the last 12 months particularly, it has been extremely stable. I've not had 1 problem or issue with it, and have been through a number of activity-bombarded "launch" unlocks without sweat. I can vouch for 95% of my steam friends network too; I had to talk 1 person through how to refresh his steam cache, and that's -IT-.
And one cannot even talk about the benefits to the developers. Instant access to, what was the last count? 13 million active users (http://steamgames.com/v/index.php?area=news&id=1050).
I really hope Valve comes through for Aquaria, and that Steam is taken up. Anyway, fingers crossed on my part!
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Personally I'm not a big fan of Steam. I think it's a mess. Not that they aren't providing a large amount of downloads for people, but I don't like the idea of having a separate app running in the background while I play my game when there's no need for it. Some people don't care, and that's fine it's all a matter of opinion but aside from that I still find the service a bit messy. I don't really like the layout of it all. I realize Steam has a lot of mainstream games, but once again I choose not to play my games with additional apps that HAVE to be loaded in the background... seems unreasonable to me, but again that's my preference and opinion on the matter. Personally I prefer buying straight from the Indie developer and if need be I'd buy off of Manifesto, ArcadeTown, or Reflexive before I'd choose Steam. When I enjoy a game I prefer to support the developer as much as possible so 95% of the time I purchase it straight through their site. The other times are when I'm interested in two games by two different devs and both games happen to be on a site that distributes indie games. That's when I'll just buy the two games straight from the one site so that I don't have to fork over my CC numbers more than I have to (but I normally don't go and buy two different indie titles on the exact same day and when I do they're usually games that were made by the same developer).
On a side note, the only real recommendation I have for all indie developers is that they pair up with an e-commerce that provides not only credit card payments but also accepts PayPal since people can use their Credit or Debit cards through the service AND it's safer than giving your numbers out to numerous sites (even though most of them are reputable). I just think it's an added convenience and PayPal and the buyers payments are protected.
Anyway, that's my two cents... ;D
Johnny
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www.i-luv-games.com
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With due respect, I think we should consider this topic closed. There are people who like Steam and there are people who do not; Bit-Blot seems to be happy to cater to both parties.
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Keep talking. Its interesting to read what everyone has to say. :)
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Well since Alec has given the green light ;) , I was really not trying to dissuade or persuade the guys at Bit-Blot or coach them into making one decision or another, I was just trying to get the point across as to why I personally don't like Steam.
I have a big problem with being forced to have one app running in the background just so I can use another, I think many would agree that there are enough mysterious background apps running (in Windows) at all times. Having one more app may not seem like much but to me it's just as annoying as lets say -- Spyware.
In regards to what Alec and Derek should do in this situation or other dealings with distribution and finances, I think they should listen to the public but not necessarily agree with them. What I mean by that is they already have their own views, principles, and priorities. I think they should stick with what they find important to them and if they do come across useful information they should somehow incorporate it into their ideals but ultimately they should stick with what they feel to be right. Doesn't always mean it's the best choice but then there's no blame or finger pointing when the day is done and they can feel confident that their decisions were their own. It's one of the few things that the indie developer can keep for themselves but is sometimes forgotten. A lot of people would say that expanding and distributing with and through everything and everyone would be great to make a lot of money and a quick buck. Personally I think it's more important to develop and create something you love, make it as good as possible, and then try to sell it (case and point, exactly what Bit-Blot is doing). Aquaria is already widely popular among indie fans and has accumulated a lot of good PR. I really don't think it would be necessary to go through other distributors or portals yet because that option will always be there later on anyway (just look at games like Gish and Mr. Robot). Lastly, Bit-Blot has an excellent opportunity with the popularity that they have already gained to keep as much creative control as they want while becoming increasingly popular through alternative media and word of mouth. As an added point to the conversation think of Wolfenstien 3D and Doom, (some people still don't realize or even remember this) they were both released as Shareware and developed as indie titles by indie developers... Most of their popularity was gained through word of mouth and distribution was done mainly through BBS's (Public Bulletin Board Systems) which were nowhere near as widely used in terms of scope or scale as todays "Internet" as we know it. I'm sure the guys at "id" (just 2 people at the time) wanted to make some money but I have to believe that they were pretty intelligent and realized that they had made much more than a profit from money. They now have a large fan base and people who are constantly on the lookout for their next release. None of this happened over night, yet the company is still around.
Again, I think it's important to do what you feel is right and try your damned-est to not "Sell-Out". I believe it's the best way to remain "Great".
How does this all apply to "Steam"? It's just some food for thought...
;D
Cheers,
Johnny
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www.i-luv-games.com
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Well since Alec has given the green light ;) , I was really not trying to dissuade or persuade the guys at Bit-Blot or coach them into making one decision or another, I was just trying to get the point across as to why I personally don't like Steam.
I have a big problem with being forced to have one app running in the background just so I can use another, I think many would agree that there are enough mysterious background apps running (in Windows) at all times. Having one more app may not seem like much but to me it's just as annoying as lets say -- Spyware.
But Bit-Blot releasing Aquaria via Steam should have no effect upon you whatsoever. Bit-Blot are already planning to release Aquaria retail-style (I'm guessing a download from their site, or something). So, you get that version, and Steam users get their Steam version. Also, for many programs, Steam is not required to be running the background. For instance, all of the files from all three of Introversion's games can be taken out of the Steam directory, and (sometimes with a little patching) can be run without Steam. This is because Steam does not require that DRM be present. I see no reason that Bit-Blot couldn't do the same, if they so chose.
In the end, I don't see how distribution via Steam could be a bad thing for small game developers who want to get their name out...
xander
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As a Steam user myself I would like to say that Steam is great for impulse buying, particularly of small cheap games (as is the case of most indie games). I go there many times when bored and check games on the 1-10$ and 11-20$ ranges.
Putting Aquaria on Steam would not so much in order to get to the target audience, but to the potential one. Regular folk that have never heard of the game and probably wouldn't give it a second look otherwise might try a demo they find across steam (a service they're more likely to trust than a random website) and eventually buy the game.
Whether you find Steam to be evil or not is irrelevant for the discussion, the point is more if you want the advantages it might bring and if those compensate the disadvantages.
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Xander and Xocrates:
I never said that Bit-Blot should or shouldn't work with Valve to have their game distributed via Steam. I honestly don't know what sort of "Cut" Valve gets for the games they distribute or what they would expect for an indie title such as Aquaria. The fact of the matter is Everyone can purchase Aquaria from Bit-Blots Site and Steam users will just as easily learn about Aquaria as the people who do not use Steam through other websites and alternative media. Steam is both liked and disliked in equal amounts so I'm sure that Aquaria would get noticed on Steam but who's to say Aquaria won't get noticed without it? As I mentioned in my original post, these are decisions that do not have to be made right away and is something that can be thought about and used as on option in the future if Alec and Derek want or perhaps need to. So it is only my opinion that it would make sense to start distribution through your own site first and then expand, this is also good business for the guys at Bit-Blot because they will make more profit with each title sold rather than watering down the value of their game by selling it through a 3rd party right away. I say go with the 3rd Party distribution when and if Aquaria starts losing some of it's "Steam" (pardon the pun) and popularity. Otherwise do what you can with what you've got. There are plenty of sites and magazines that will cover the story, give sneak peaks, and give previews and reviews of Aquaria resulting in positive PR for Bit-Blot and Aquaria (what's that saying about all PR?). PR such as this is also cost effective and as close to free as you can get when trying to spread the word about your product. So "Regular folk that have never heard of the game and probably wouldn't give it a second look otherwise might try a demo" (as quoted by Xocrates post), but they might try it straight from the Bit-Blot site.
So please don't take it the wrong way, I'm just not convinced that by distributing through a 3rd party portal or download distribution site is necessary at such and early stage when it can be used as a much more beneficial and profitable tool at a later date. Just makes more sense to me. Once the game is out, "It's out" so it's not going to disappear off the face of the planet but it may wane in popularity in a year or so when distribution through outside means would re-vitalize sales and perhaps it's popularity once more.
Aside from all of that (and I'm sure I mentioned it before) you're contributing to the developers more directly which gives them more profit and more incentive. You also get a more direct connection with the devs and more immediate customer service and tech support and the knowledge that your money is going toward this and future developments by Bit-Blot.
Either way it's easy for any of us to ask that the guys at Bit-Blot go with a massive world-wide distribution and all sorts of 3rd party companies and download portals that will ultimately increase exposure to their game while also taking cuts into their overall profits (which is what I meant by cheapening the game). We can only speculate, make assumptions and recommendations so easily because we haven't put anything into Aquaria or invest our time into the project. That's why I'm trying very hard to stick to my opinions and what I've learned as fact on the matter without trying to get a handle on the direction that Bit-Blot will take, or try to steer them, because I know that Alec and Derek are smart enough to think for themselves and they may have already had thoughts about distribution and the like a year ago, or perhaps not. The important thing about discussions is expressing your views without knocking everyone else's. So I do appreciate your opinions as well Xander and Xocrates. I just think it's more important to be thoughtful than spiteful, so I try not to knock other peoples opinions.
It's an interesting discussion. Don't know if it's of any use but we'll find out what Alec and Derek decide to do in the near future I'm sure. I wish them the best of success no matter what they decide to do. It goes without saying that we're all pretty anxious to dive into the game. ;D
Cheers!
Johnny
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www.i-luv-games.com
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Excellent post Johnny. Bit-blot can use steam later on, after the inital hype has worn off. Thus making Aquaria more popular/mainstream, and still keeping optimum profits.
I think that we can all agree that is good, eh?
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Actually Johny, I wasn't trying to argue against you, I was just giving my honest opinion.
But I must admit, releasing Aquaria first on the website and some time later on Steam is probably a good idea.
I have however to point out that
Aquaria would get noticed on Steam but who's to say Aquaria won't get noticed without it?
There are plenty of sites and magazines that will cover the story, give sneak peaks, and give previews and reviews of Aquaria resulting in positive PR for Bit-Blot and Aquaria
Doesn't always work.
Case in point (and I hate to keep mentioning introversion on a different forum) I'm the only person I personally know that bought any of introversion's games, the only mention I've ever seen on a magazine around here about them was a small note when Darwinia won the IGF. The only way I even know about IV is because several years ago my brother brought home a pirate copy of Uplink which got me hooked (I've bought the game since).
I would also like to get back to the point of "trust". Many people are still afraid of buying stuff through the internet, in fact one of the reasons I bought Darwinia through Steam instead of IV's shop was because I didn't quite trust a site which support and reliability I knew nothing about. Steam belonged to a big company, it seemed a far better option.
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Actually Xocrates, now you know another person who has bought games straight from Introversions Website. ;D I've purchased a couple of their titles (and decided to get the physical version of Defcon). With sites like GameTunnel and other indie gaming sites people do find out about these titles and they have had plenty of honorable mention in various E-zines and Magz. I think you're underestimating the power of the internet and the length at which good "Word 'o Mouth" can go. I personally know of two other people who also bought Defcon and a few more people who hadn't heard of it until they stumbled across my site and asked me a couple of questions about it. I was also online the day that Defcon launched and there were plenty of games up and running both Demo and Full versions (and most of them weren't running under Steam - it's great because the lobby allows you to see who's using a Steam version and who isn't). So while your point might apply to some games, it doesn't necessarily apply to Introversions Games or Bit-Blots. I think you're right that Steam could definitely make a game or company that "isn't" very popular more so, but Introversion has had a decent run of success through IGF, indie gaming sites, alternative media, and word of mouth. I've browsed their forums as well and it's not really as if their is a lack of forum discussion. Also, remember that IGF is also getting a little coverage from some of the larger mainstream sites as well (ala GameSpot). So I think you probably just perceive it that way because you perhaps don't know anyone in "real life" that knows of Defcon or the other Introversion titles which is much more likely and probable. A great example of after-market distribution and merchandising would be Gish. It wasn't very popular in the beginning (not many people had heard about it) but it was a damn good game that once found, received extremely positive reviews and response from indie gamers. After some time Gish turned up on Download portals and 3rd party sites and ending up doing better. Sometimes success can be based on timing or even luck, but I think Aquaria has been more widely received (and it isn't even out yet) because of IGF and the amount of great coverage that it has received and this is only the beginning. Once the game is out it'll be easier to show it off and spread the word. I think Bit-Blot will do just fine and having the extra options (as mentioned throughout the "Steam" discussion) will be more beneficial in the long run of things.
Cheers!
Johnny
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www.i-luv-games.com
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Time for a little interjection with my mini-rant... Note this is only referring to the PC platform.
I personally believe that if indies work together in marketing, they will eventually outgrow being so dependent on portals.
For now, portals like Steam are a great way to reach a huge audience. (without having to make a game that panders to a certain type of audience like on casual portals) I think Valve is doing a great thing for indies.
But as more full, content-rich and high quality indie games are made, and the strength of the community grows (TIGForums (http://forums.tigsource.com/)!) I think the makers of those great games will be able to work together to make an impact without having to resort to larger companies as much. (this is part of what the IGF is all about!) As more great games are made and more people see that buying games direct from indies is nothing to worry about, things will only get better. If we run and hide behind publishers right away or all the time, we'll only be giving more attention, wealth and power to them.
Now, I have no idea how probable it is that indies will eventually have this kind of cooperation and influence, but I don't really care. Its something I want to work towards and I'm going to keep at it.
To recap the BB side of things:
At this point in time it is both important to establish our own website as a source of quality games, as well as work towards setting up a deal with Steam. But I don't see the need to be on Steam right away... I'm very curious to see how well we can do on our own first.
(I think the only way I'd ever launch the game on Steam at the same time as our site, is if they offered us some kind of insane deal. [note by launch I mean "first ever release"])
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What about users that do not even know the difference between indie game and other games? Gamers who just buy game to play for fun, without any after-thoughts about
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hopefully indie-game will get to be recognized as a genre by itself, and people will get to trust those. But it is a long term process.
Yeah, definitely!
I'm really glad there are things like Steam around now, they make life much better for indies!
But in the very long term, I'd rather see a service like that run by indies and/or news sites for indie games that gain enough popularity to actually shift a lot of units without having to resort to the casual portals.
If it ever happens, it'll take a lot of time and a lot of really good games. It feels to me like there is a tide coming, in the way that I see a lot more impressive indie games on the horizon than I did several years ago. More and better games are what will make the difference!
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:D Well said Alec and pretty much the point I was trying to get across but you took it a step further by mentioning that indie devs should work together to grow without having to rely on some of the large (albeit money hungry) companies. The problem with some (if not most) of these larger publishers is that they don't give a damn about the developers, they care about the bottom line only so the quality of the game doesn't matter -- just how much it'll make them, with little to no concern for the developer. I'd really like to drop a few names regarding the matter but I'll force myself not to (two capitalized vowels come to mind -- damn you BioWare! Why! WHY!!! :'(), I find that with these large publishers game plus game play quality and customer support is far from secondary and barely applicable to their business ethic. This is a mini-rant as well but it's important to note that what Alec mentioned about being able to succeed and grow without the need to have your choices made for you or another hand in your pocket is important for all indie developers and even mainstream developers who are seeking creative control over their work. I can't say that this is something that Valve intends to do with their Steam service, but I can say that Valve has enough money and will most likely be an available service in the future, so there's no need to rush into things.
In regard to what you had said Stalfos, although finding out about the game is all part of marketing and the gaming "biz" it's important for smaller developing companies to be able to profit from their efforts without relying fully on another large publisher if not only to help the developer recognize where they could make improvements and grow or how to market the game better, but it also gives more meaning to the word "independent" and ensures that these developers retain control over their product. The internet makes it possible to market in numerous and inventive ways. I really think Aquaria will reach it's target audience (which is hopefully anyone who loves video games :D)
I can't speak for all indie developers, but I know that when I've put a large amount of time, effort, and work into something I wouldn't want to give it up easily or cheaply just to make a quick buck... I'd personally want to develop my skills and grow so that my efforts or talents would be sought after for some time. Not everyone feels the same way and that's understandable, but I'm just more sentimental and thoughtful about what I want to try to accomplish in life. Doesn't mean I'm right or wrong, but I think it's a healthy and respectable way of looking at things.
And yes Alec, I agree with you, I think indie games are getting better and better. There is a tide coming and I really can't wait to play that game that's somewhat of a cross between Ecco the Dolphin, Castlevania: SoTN, and Metroid... oh what's it called again....??? Oh yeah, Aquaria ;)
Johnny
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www.i-luv-games.com
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I as well am rather peeved that Steam won't allow you to choose your install location (i.e. my external hard drive) thus my meager laptop hard drive is full.
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That's probably the one time where running it through Wine might be superior :P
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As an added point to the conversation think of Wolfenstien 3D and Doom, (some people still don't realize or even remember this) they were both released as Shareware and developed as indie titles by indie developers...
The reason some people don't realize it or even remember it is because it wasn't so. Both games were published by Apogee, as was their first game, Commander Keen. Their only indie title was a PC port of Mario Bros 3, which was never released. And there were four members, not two.
...who's to say Aquaria won't get noticed without it?
Another Introversion example. Introversion has stated more than once that Steam singlehandedly got their company back on its feet. I would argue that the majority of the people out there don't read the gaming mags, and of those that do, many only read about games they are interested in and skip the rest. Fact is, Steam introduces indie games to non-indie gamers. That's exactly how I discovered them, and to this day I wouldn't have if it weren't for steam.
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I as well am rather peeved that Steam won't allow you to choose your install location (i.e. my external hard drive) thus my meager laptop hard drive is full.
I guess you can circumvent that "Usability-Error" of Steam on Windows too. I don't know if the Filemanager and Filesystem provide the comfort of symlinks, but you can mount a harddisk to a directory. Maybe you can also mount a directory of your external drive to a steam subdirectory (that's "bind mounting" on linux).
Topic: I use steam, but i really prefer a normal downloadable version, because I really think that Steam still has some serious Usability problems. Also, i don't think that you can (already) distribute linux-games over steam and as soon as a linux-version is available i'd prefer to use the native version and i could run into problems trying to convert the steam version into a (native) steam-independent version. I don't know if steam provides functionality for such use cases.
If you can, do both.
I had a flawless purchase when I bought Penumbra: Overture, so that's a good example, but when I bought Half-Life Episode 1it took weeks until it was correctly purchased, for some reason and that was the first purchase I made on steam.
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NTFS allows symlinks....but badly and not using explorer. Also, using them incorrectly can royally fark up your file table. Not advised.
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The way I got around that was by installing Steam on my other drive. I think it can only download stuff to the drive that its installed on.
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Actually, that's half true.
A quick fix is to copy the Program Files folder to the drive you want to use. You don't need to re-install, just run the exe from within the moved folder. I did that to install Portal when my drive became full. Not only that, but updates still install proper as well. I'm not quite sure what it store on the registry but it appears to use relative paths for everything else.
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I would buy the game from anywhere as long as I am able to get it from Bulgaria <- Thats were I live. Steam would be the fastest way to get the game for me, I think. But if there was an option to buy the game (not from Steam) and receive a hard copy later (with manual, poster ect...) I will definitely choose it over the option with Steam...
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I'd rather not touch Steam as well. I'm going to buy the Collectors Edition from the Website.
"Collectors Edition... WTF?"
I bet that's what you just said to yourself.
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"Collector's Edition... FTW!"
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"Collector's Edition... FTW!"
I was so close... if it weren't for you meddling kids!
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I myself love Steam simply because it is THE reason i've got into Indie games. I would have never looked at some of the titles twice if it wern't for them being on steam. I enjoy adding games to my Steam list too, personally I love the service. Back at launch indeed there were many problems but for this past year the service has really taken off. I haven't had any problems.
I'm holding out buying Aquaria because i like to have a solid client which allows me to download the game & install it so simply etc. Not to mention that on Steam games usually get a discount on launch or a lower price-point. Maybe im a cheapskate.. But i saw Aquaria on the 1UpShow. I had never heard of the game but as soon as i heard them say it was a PC Indie game i was intrigued. After watching the show i thought hey ill pop over to their site and check out more info on the game then maybe ill drop $20 on it. However when i got to the site seeing that the game was $30 was a huge surprise to me. Considering i just got UT3 for £18 - a game thats been developed for years by a huge team with millions and millions spent on it. Okay okay its hard to compare the games, they are completely different. But its simply the principles of it which throw me off.
After reading up some reviews of the games many of the reviewers pointed out exactly what I thought - that $30 is abit too steep for an indie game, however all of the review's did seem to strongly praise the game :) Many indie games for me are impulse buys, i dont expect them, but when they pop up and look interesting I think "hey what the hell its only a tenner" (from the UK) and I go off and buy them. It wouldn't surprise me if this price point is scaring off alot of people which are now learning about the game from places such as the 1upshow.
Anychance of a christmas discount :) I know you want to! Haha but even after those streams of text, depending on what kind of cash balance i'm looking at from Xmas, my love for indie games and indie developers will most likely persuade me to buy the game and support you guys. But my point still stands that for alot of impulse buyers and interested gamers the pricepoint, being almost a third higher than any Indie game ive seen, will scare them off.
Edit : Cheer for first post :)